If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia...

[Eddi]

Thomas Szasz (a notable psychiatrist) famously said:

If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia...​

Question: Are there any exceptions to this rule? Can you claim God talks to you without being considered a schizophrenic? If so, how?

I think it's a matter of how many people believe you, which determines how society labels you. I think the difference between being written off as a schizophrenic and being considered a prophet is simply a matter of numbers. Televangelist crooks say stuff like "God wants me to raise a million dollars" - if I said that I'd be considered psychotic so why not them? Maybe because it's so obvious that it's a lie and that they are clearly liars rather than psychotics?

Perhaps the purpose of being able to perform miracles is to let the masses know you are of God rather than a psychotic? Would people have paid attention to Jesus if he could not perform miracles? Miracles were a big part of his ministry and I don't think it could have worked out without them...

I'm interested in this issue as I have been diagnosed as having schizophrenia, although I don't believe the entity who communicates with me is God, although I did used to...

 

[Geoff-Allen]

I'm interested in this issue as I have been diagnosed as having schizophrenia, although I don't believe the entity who communicates with me is God, although I did used to...

Greetings!

I have been diagnosed with shcizophrenia for 37 years so I may have an interesting perspective on this

I often communicate with "entities" but not sure if any of them are God Himself.

For a radical perspective on the phenomenon of schizophrenia try this site -

SACREDPHRENIA

All the best!

 

[Terry Sampson]

Maybe because it's so obvious that it's a lie

I think you're on to something there, Eddi.
Now, what if I started a Gofundme account, and introduced it with these words:
"God wanted me to open this account to collect enough money to build an ark."???

 

[dybmh]

I think what you'l find is, people who are mentally ill will react strongly to certain subject matter. Mannerisms, gestures, inflection, pace of speech... their behavior shifts when they are triggered. They become more emphatic about their POV in a deeply unrealistic manner.

In short, the diagnosis should be based on objective behaviors. This wouldn't be a belief, but how a person behaves while activated.

 

[Sirona]

I think the difference is free will. If you're healthy or stable, you can always choose not to follow "the voice of God", whereas, at least in acute schizophrenia, you're a slave to whatever the voice tells you without being able to say yes or no.

 

[oldbadger]

Thomas Szasz (a notable psychiatrist) famously said:

If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia...​

Question: Are there any exceptions to this rule? Can you claim God talks to you without being considered a schizophrenic? If so, how?

Sure you can!
Szasz was obviously prejudiced because he could not have believed in any God. Hence.... agenda.
I am a Deist, which makes my immediate God to be Mother Nature.
The more I get to know my God so the more that my God talks to me, reminds me of things to do, warns me of risks ahead. That;'s a conversation.
Szasz can go take a jump in to a lake....

I'm interested in this issue as I have been diagnosed as having schizophrenia, although I don't believe the entity who communicates with me is God, although I did used to...

What does your entity say when they talk to you?
What do you get told?

I think we nearly all have split minds, personalities, ideas etc.... it only gets to be a problem if this hurts us or others.

 

[February-Saturday]

I am aware of a method for communicating with an angel as a stand-in messenger of God from the Middle Ages that involved self-isolation, fasting, sleep deprivation, and intense prayer for around 2 weeks.

I'm also aware of several methods of rhythmic drum beating accompanied by visualization and religious chanting that achieves a similar effect.

There's also the rather well-known use of entheogens like fly agaric or seer's sage in religious ceremonies.

To claim that any of these experiences are born out of schizophrenia is to not really understand schizophrenia.

Aside from that, if your prayers are literally being answered in your mind, that's probably not psychosis. It's a phenomenon that's been the subject of archetypal psychoanalysis for awhile. Most people talk to themselves in their head to some degree, with the "other" voices fulfilling a variety of roles. This is astonishingly common with children and imaginary friends. I don't think having imaginary friends is something to be dismissed as childish, either, it can play an important role in psychological health for children and even adults in some contexts (although adults tend to use their dead relatives, role models, or friends rather than making up new characters).

The apophenia that this phrase ("If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia") generally refers to is actually a pretty common cognitive distortion that everyone suffers from for one reason or another. If you're expecting to see that pattern due to a religious background or communal pressures, it's a lot more likely to see it. If a religious person has an extremely vivid dream of Heaven or angels, they're more likely to take it seriously because of their beliefs, not because of psychosis.

Even from the perspective that God doesn't exist and doesn't talk to anyone, that doesn't really imply schizophrenia specifically, or even any form of mental illness. Anyone under the proper circumstances can have an experience that can be described as God talking to them. You can't make such a complex psychiatric diagnosis without a lot more information and formal training. Even psychiatrists sometimes misdiagnose schizophrenia in these cases, jumping to conclusions about the underlying mechanisms.

 

[Eddi]

Szasz can go take a jump in to a lake....

lol, that's the spirit

What does your entity say when they talk to you?
What do you get told?

It used to alternate between telling me I was the saviour of humankind - a messiah even - and that this universe is a computer simulation. For years I flipped between those two scenarios. In the past I made plenty of posts here on RF whilst under each delusion.

It now identifies itself as being a Heavenly Being (or "Guardian Angel" for want of a better word...) and says that it told me those other things as a means to opening my eyes, to educate me

 

[oldbadger]

lol, that's the spirit

It used to alternate between telling me I was the saviour of humankind - a messiah even -. and that this universe is a computer simulation. For years I flipped between those two scenarios. In the past I made plenty of posts here on RF whilst under each delusion.

I like the 'Saviour of Mankind' message. It's a beneficial message, and although you were the hero in that scenario that is hardly such a bad mindset.
Daydreams are the stairways to various kinds of genius. Enjoy such communications, is my suggestion.

It now identifies itself as being a Heavenly Being (or "Guardian Angel" for want of a better word...) and says that it told me those other things as a means to opening my eyes, to educate me

Fair enough.
You see? None of this is such a dangerous idea.

Dangerous communications are like the ones that tell a person that all the neighbours are evil and need to be got rid of. Your chats are not a problem, imo.

Honestly, you haven't told me anything that I see as that bad. I'm probably much more nutty than you.

 

[stvdv]

Question: Are there any exceptions to this rule? Can you claim God talks to you without being considered a schizophrenic? If so, how?

This psychiatrist is the wrong person to give good information about Innervoice. His communication with God is blocked. He might be useful though, to first learn Common Sense and Discrimination and develop self confidence.

First of all "don't claim God talks to you, esp. if the other's God communication line is closed". Mostly it's the ego which likes to boost itself "I can hear God's voice". Nothing special about that. All humans can develop this siddhi. Innervoice without lots of humility can turn out dangerous.

This (stop boosting/claiming) solves the problem "others imposing their mental picture (being schizophrenic) on you". We all know that people like to point at others. The wise also know, that those who point with 1 finger, are too blind to see the 3 fingers pointing back at them.

It would be smart to follow instructions of a "real" Master,because most people don't see their own blind spots. But beware, there are many "pretend to be Masters". And when you are "blind" how to know which Master can be trusted?

If you want a pure Innervoice, you need to purify your mind, so you also need to purify your senses, as they feed your mind.

Lastly, it's verys simple to know if what you hear is just "Mental chatter" or your Innervoice.

If your Innervoice is pure and clear, you just know. If you don't know, that itself is a good indication, that you need to purify more, before you can trust your innervoice.

Discrimination and Common Sense are paramount of course, when you want to know whether or not God Talks to you.

 

[Kenny]

Thomas Szasz (a notable psychiatrist) famously said:

If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia...​

Question: Are there any exceptions to this rule? Can you claim God talks to you without being considered a schizophrenic? If so, how?

I think it's a matter of how many people believe you, which determines how society labels you. I think the difference between being written off as a schizophrenic and being considered a prophet is simply a matter of numbers. Televangelist crooks say stuff like "God wants me to raise a million dollars" - if I said that I'd be considered psychotic so why not them? Maybe because it's so obvious that it's a lie and that they are clearly liars rather than psychotics?

Perhaps the purpose of being able to perform miracles is to let the masses know you are of God rather than a psychotic? Would people have paid attention to Jesus if he could not perform miracles? Miracles were a big part of his ministry and I don't think it could have worked out without them...

I'm interested in this issue as I have been diagnosed as having schizophrenia, although I don't believe the entity who communicates with me is God, although I did used to...

In the Christian perspective, I would first say there are two types of schizophrenia (as defined by the psychologist), a natural cause or a spiritual cause manifesting in the natural. (Not all are equal though the psychologist may think so).

No different that in some cases, as typified in the life of Jesus, some people who were deaf were by natural causes and some cases were spiritual and each dealt with differently

Spiritually speaking, talking to God and hearing from God or another entity doesn't make you a schizophrenic. Neither does speaking to another entity. Again, the trained psychologist would think one is if he has no spiritual training

In the case of another entity, we simply take authority over it and demand that it leave and not come back (as did Jesus). Being filled with and then led by God's Holy Spirit is what we receive and then strive for, respectively.

If it is a natural reason, we use doctors.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Sure you can!
Szasz was obviously prejudiced because he could not have believed in any God. Hence.... agenda.
I am a Deist, which makes my immediate God to be Mother Nature.

Hmm...are you sure it was Szasz who was prejudiced, mate? You seem to be misinterpreting his views based on a single oft-misused quote.

Perhaps this one will give you an inkling of his intent...

Formerly, when religion was strong and science weak, men mistook magic for medicine; now, when science is strong and religion weak, men mistake medicine for magic.

 

[Heyo]

Thomas Szasz (a notable psychiatrist) famously said:

If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia...​

Question: Are there any exceptions to this rule? Can you claim God talks to you without being considered a schizophrenic? If so, how?

Simple. Ask the voice for a little assistance. The next winning lottery numbers, the location of a sunk gold ship, the answer to a millennium question. With a few millions on your bank account you are more likely to accomplish what the voices are demanding and you'd also care less if people call you schizophrenic. If the voices refuse to help you first, they don't come from god but from the wandering ghost of a Nigerian prince who just needs a little assistance to get at his immense wealth he is willing to share with you.

 

[PureX]

Then again, maybe schizophrenia is HOW God talks to people. That and hallucinogenic drugs.

 

[Nakosis]

Thomas Szasz (a notable psychiatrist) famously said:

If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia...​

Question: Are there any exceptions to this rule? Can you claim God talks to you without being considered a schizophrenic? If so, how?

I think it's a matter of how many people believe you, which determines how society labels you. I think the difference between being written off as a schizophrenic and being considered a prophet is simply a matter of numbers. Televangelist crooks say stuff like "God wants me to raise a million dollars" - if I said that I'd be considered psychotic so why not them? Maybe because it's so obvious that it's a lie and that they are clearly liars rather than psychotics?

Perhaps the purpose of being able to perform miracles is to let the masses know you are of God rather than a psychotic? Would people have paid attention to Jesus if he could not perform miracles? Miracles were a big part of his ministry and I don't think it could have worked out without them...

I'm interested in this issue as I have been diagnosed as having schizophrenia, although I don't believe the entity who communicates with me is God, although I did used to...

A person runs into a lot of folks when they dream. IMO, it just happens to some when they are awake as well. I've read that when you visualize an image in your hear vs actually see something our brain uses the same circuits to create both images. It just that usually when we mentally visualize something we are consciously aware of doing it. For some like when you dream your brain can create these experiences on a subconscious level.

 

[oldbadger]

Hmm...are you sure it was Szasz who was prejudiced, mate? You seem to be misinterpreting his views based on a single oft-misused quote.

You often get my posts wrong, don't you.... mate?

What I wrote was for a single member..... it started like this:-
''Szasz can go take a jump in to a lake.... ''

That's called humour........
Now, let's see your addition....
'Formerly, when religion was strong and science weak, men mistook magic for medicine; now, when science is strong and religion weak, men mistake medicine for magic.'

Now that's quite interesting to me because it (vaguely) reminds me of your last post to me which causes me to chuckle even now ..... yep....
You might remember discussing face masks with me, when I mentioned (in favour of their obvious value) that our postmen are now wearing face masks. Remember? Your dark-humour (is that right?) got to you slightly over that comment ........ as if a mere postman could tilt the balance of the science? If so, that was a misinterpretation.
I may have this wrong, but I don't think so...... you see..... you must have seen a postie ambling along the street with his post-bag and mask. I didn't.... I saw a different picture. I saw a Post Office executive, responsible for tens of thousands of employees making a very important decision on the basis of science...... not magic. You never did get that, imo.

Perhaps this one will give you an inkling of his intent...

Yeah.... I get his intent. But that's another thread, really.
After all, his discipline is surely one of the less exact sciences out there.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Thomas Szasz (a notable psychiatrist) famously said:

If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia...​

Question: Are there any exceptions to this rule? Can you claim God talks to you without being considered a schizophrenic? If so, how?

I think it's a matter of how many people believe you, which determines how society labels you. I think the difference between being written off as a schizophrenic and being considered a prophet is simply a matter of numbers. Televangelist crooks say stuff like "God wants me to raise a million dollars" - if I said that I'd be considered psychotic so why not them? Maybe because it's so obvious that it's a lie and that they are clearly liars rather than psychotics?

Perhaps the purpose of being able to perform miracles is to let the masses know you are of God rather than a psychotic? Would people have paid attention to Jesus if he could not perform miracles? Miracles were a big part of his ministry and I don't think it could have worked out without them...

I'm interested in this issue as I have been diagnosed as having schizophrenia, although I don't believe the entity who communicates with me is God, although I did used to...

Several religious traditions have "holy madmen"

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You often get my posts wrong, don't you.... mate?

What I wrote was for a single member..... it started like this:-
''Szasz can go take a jump in to a lake.... ''

That's called humour........
Now, let's see your addition....
'Formerly, when religion was strong and science weak, men mistook magic for medicine; now, when science is strong and religion weak, men mistake medicine for magic.'

Now that's quite interesting to me because it (vaguely) reminds me of your last post to me which causes me to chuckle even now ..... yep....
You might remember discussing face masks with me, when I mentioned (in favour of their obvious value) that our postmen are now wearing face masks. Remember? Your dark-humour (is that right?) got to you slightly over that comment ........ as if a mere postman could tilt the balance of the science? If so, that was a misinterpretation.
I may have this wrong, but I don't think so...... you see..... you must have seen a postie ambling along the street with his post-bag and mask. I didn't.... I saw a different picture. I saw a Post Office executive, responsible for tens of thousands of employees making a very important decision on the basis of science...... not magic. You never did get that, imo.



Yeah.... I get his intent. But that's another thread, really.
After all, his discipline is surely one of the less exact sciences out there.

No, you're completely missing his intent.
And the additional quote I added was also his. Not mine.

To put it bluntly, Tomas Szasz was probably the number one critic of psychology, and in particular spoke against the overuse of drugs and over diagnosis of schizophrenia.
He believed that what was important was how people lived with their 'illnesses' (a term he wasn't fond of) and would have agreed with the points you made in relation to the OP (I believe...I'm obviously guessing somewhat on that).

The quote in the OP is sometimes used out of context...as it has been here...as if he was suggesting people who heard God were crazy.

Which is rubbish.

People misuse quotes all the time, and I think the OP did so only with the best of intentions (ie. To promote an important conversation).

But piling on as if Szasz was pro-psychology, anti-religion and giving a slap to atheists in a general sense on the way through was kinda cheap, and...in this case...completely unwarranted.

You're attacking a strawman.

As for conversations about masks, I'll happily revisit whatever you like, but that has absolutely bugger all to do with this thread.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thomas Szasz (a notable psychiatrist) famously said:

If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia...​

Question: Are there any exceptions to this rule? Can you claim God talks to you without being considered a schizophrenic? If so, how?

I think it's a matter of how many people believe you, which determines how society labels you. I think the difference between being written off as a schizophrenic and being considered a prophet is simply a matter of numbers. Televangelist crooks say stuff like "God wants me to raise a million dollars" - if I said that I'd be considered psychotic so why not them? Maybe because it's so obvious that it's a lie and that they are clearly liars rather than psychotics?

Perhaps the purpose of being able to perform miracles is to let the masses know you are of God rather than a psychotic? Would people have paid attention to Jesus if he could not perform miracles? Miracles were a big part of his ministry and I don't think it could have worked out without them...

I'm interested in this issue as I have been diagnosed as having schizophrenia, although I don't believe the entity who communicates with me is God, although I did used to...

I've never heard a believer say they heard an audible person's voice none less said whether it's baritone, squeaky, soprano, or couldn't carry a tune. Most say it's faith, heart, feeling, experience, mystery, or events that "couldn't have happened" by chance. No voices.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Then again, maybe schizophrenia is HOW God talks to people. That and hallucinogenic drugs.

Or any other technique people can think of to put one's mind into a trance.

But yeah, I think drugs are the most popular choice. Pretty much every religion has its origin is in taking some kind of hallucinogenic drug.

Weed, peyote, mushrooms......