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If God existed how could it be proven?

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
NONE of what happened was Jesus' fault, it was all the fault of the Church who MIS-interpreted most of what Jesus said and created a false religion..... The False Prophets

And then there was Paul who added icing to the cake. How Paul changed the course of Christianity
I don't think it was Paul's fault. Most Baha'i scholars disagree with Udo Schaeffer. Back when I read it, it seemed convincing to me, but not any more. So does 'Abdu'l-Baha, it appears. See my post on how I see how the doctrine of the Trinity came about for my understanding of how that came about. Of course that's just one doctrine. Paul is misunderstood by Luther and others about salvation by faith alone. Before Luther, that doctrine didn't exist, I don't think.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If science theories space emptiness cold is extreme unknoweable pressure owned form and it opposed consuming then if you said nothing began all reason why mass existed as presence then the intent theory nothing would be the end.

End for a universe sucked Down deeper. Nothing but space emptiness seen after. Theism visionary inclusive also. New universe by collisions blasting invented.

I can copy says science knowingly. Notified by all pre existing visions.

Recordings of. Why psyche teaching about visions in records universe memory like tv in space in gas vision is real.

Stories taught to theist on earth by out of space star groups. Actual.

As a sun theist it would mean plummeting into deep space pit. Atmosphere set alight to burn out so earth would be put into space nothing first.

Tried but was not successful. What laws meant.

No gas beginnings meant no heavens.

Stephen Haw King warning.

Themes told like all planets could be pulled into the sun by sun voiding. Which begins with asteroids as big as planets heated by earths radiating space trails to begin reason of causes.

Collisions in space.

Evidence planets making a galaxy gone leaving a universe with contorted planet forms or destroyed small consumed bodies.

Known studied reason to study all evidences of proof. Man motivated to save self from past science choices. Includes archaeological evidence. Earths geology.

Reason H2O involved zero space also is not just H2O.

Extreme cold. Extreme pressure to be mass formed. Empty space mother of creation of form held said science.

Teaching mother space the mystery status always will be the unknown.

An actual science teaching.

Mother space womb holy.
Mass holy due to natural pressure natural law first

Teaching.

Colluding the fall of the organisation.

Satan cloud angel owns photo proven giant cloud bodies of man in image.

Father said they formed as earth heavens cooled after science sent life to gods hell.

Locked inside fusion. Machine parts.

Instantly frozen.

Satan says science holy saved life on earth. Cloud mass cooling incident.

Satan God angels keeps life safe. A science teaching.

Warnings movies. Technology evolved.
Robotics keep changing machine form.

Science thesis of evolution is their own technology.

Robotics evolving is why man's future being gas mass is removed in wars of God against man. Gases of metals.

Evil metallic forms appear as man tries to take us back in time to when even a UFO did not exist. To re own night time sky burn. As biblical manual copying.

Evidence UFO becomes changed and larger. As UFO was caused already.

Evolution cooled UFO was being removed.

Increased radiation burning is seen.

Evidence the UFO itself changed form.

What theorising falsely back in time meant about copying.

Sacrificed life inherits new body sacrifices as it's evidence.
You cannot copy natural history.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Father said pyramid stone pressurized casement owned machines underground. To claim copy space pressure lied.

Blew up and underground tunnel system collapsed. Water used in their nuclear also. Flowed up to and around pyramid. Underground water system used also.

Mayan proof surrounding nature burnt. Water wells became undrinkable water. Left. Or were instantly combusted.

Via pyramid pump. False cooling nuclear control.

I saw vision of grey flaky substance come off walls in pyramid as visionary proof stone mass was changed. Humans in the vision self combusted.

Voice said warning don't tell your family? Voice male.

If radiation then tried to pass through walls of metal machine body it would overheat and blow up. Proof it did.

Why pyramids toppled why temples blew up and temple steps of stone melted.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Father native American Indian warning to destroyer of SATAN. Cloud mass. Word NASA.

Equals answer prophetic man equated

Don't go into out of space don't go to moon. Indian warning to scientist.

Beginning of our end.

Warning American life will be combusted. We saw it. You invaded our holy land the beginning of causes.

Thesis machine underground heats. Must pump cold gas surrounding machine. I want it to work. I wear a space suit.

Meanwhile all life above ground burnt to death.

Scientific man visions prophecy.

Already visionary seem from star advice as visionary stories. Like watching a tv.

As man's machines now interactive studied star systems gave new updated advice.

Human visionary advice is real.

Plastics another artificial problem one of the many status life harmed by science of technology in space themes.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I'm glad you got your rain and I am glad it finally cooled off here. :) It is now 66 degrees and I love it.

That would not be proof to me because that is not what I believe God is or what God does.

I am happy you and your cats have all have cooled down. I hope we will learn in time to change the way we treat our home (earth).

Both examples would be ways that a god to those who recognize that god. Both are legitimate gods to those followers and your question did not specify a particular god. But that leads me to the question of how the god you follow could prove himself? You may have already answered this but I got tired of reading all of the posts and would like your perspective.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But that leads me to the question of how the god you follow could prove himself? You may have already answered this but I got tired of reading all of the posts and would like your perspective.
The only way the God I believe in proves Himself is by sending Messengers to represent Him in this contingent world. Of course, not all people consider that proof and that is why there are still agnostics and atheists.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Machines taken out as Alchemy minerals planet earth of one God.

Science only. Practiced science earth status first in thesis. Pyramid. Metal cold machine destroyed no longer in theory. Direct machine records was in UFO presence.

As they only talk pyramid not pyramid with human built machines.

Ended machine life was put back into earth opened fusion hell resealed shut.

Machine history. Machine put back where it's evil body came from.

Humans standing on ground zero mass supported historic by zero cooled mass heavens fell into hell too. Satanic memories humans screaming burning cut by cooling radiation metals. Real.

Where ideas using metal weapons came from. As humans are not evil originally by thoughts.

We were not machine man sciences thesis today as humans looking back.

Who proved by heard thesis that they believed a human came out of burning stone gases. It is occult stated false theism written as proof it is real.

Machine body had come out of stone.

Why it was written as evidence. Shroud kept as evidence.

Evil machines came out of the earth body. Not humans

Just realise how evil a satanic theist is.

You support them via civilization.
All status allowing them rights. Being non natural law known by natives.

Humans arguing civilization lied. Natives own real warnings for brothers sisters.

The human dies historic where cooling produced satanic angels giants as satanic science memories.

Last humans on earth.

I had died memory historic before life got destroyed in the future. In the past.

My name W end Y. Life had continued. Life was then destroyed.

So I am arguing against the stone theists satanic science brother sister. Who own possessed as the memories.

Satanic human angel life records caused.

Why the Satan angel causes them to believe they are safe as Satan in theory.

Possessed.

Hence cloud matter burning UFO effect heating emerging now causes them to believe they are the alien.

By status memory and records.

Statement versus occult human wrong.

Don't listen to the medium....records in gases satanic angel.

Don't thesis dead things or destroyed earth history looking back.

Don't do necromancy...as magnetic status phenomena lies. It is the evil dead human memories.

Exactly via was once taught.

Memory machine removed totally out of pyramid records. Pyramid stone machine fake.

The false Jesus...machine criminal science murderer.

Real human sacrificed. Memories why we got sacrificed.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
God created the material existence but God is not a material being. God is spirit, so God cannot "show up." The only way God ever shows up is in His Manifestations, what I refer to as Messengers of God.
Well I suppose my answer would be, that this is back projecting properties onto God, when we supposedly can't do such (not knowing anything about God other than through messengers or via our thinking) and the intermediary argument (all messengers, prophets, and such) is just so prone to deception and non-verification as to make any propositions as to what God can and cannot do rather immaterial. Why would any God use such an error-prone system? We can all project our beliefs and expectations onto what we might think is an appropriate God, whether supported by some religious text or not. And what people believe as to the validity of any messengers is hardly proof of such, which I'm sure you realise - there being so many. The fact that many choose to believe that some are bona fide messengers and others not is hardly proof of such. It all seems rather circular to me.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Claims can either be true or false.

And the entire point here, is how one tells the difference....

Did any of these establish religions and civilizations?

They certainly established entire communities.
Not sure how you think that's relevant though.

If I claim something which is a fact and nobody believes me and even burns me at the stake for my claims, do they then stop being facts?

Your question smells like a giant argumentum ad populum in the making.

Some false messengers only make claims but the true Messengers establish religions and civilizations.

//facepalm

So I was right. Argumentum ad populum.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So you simply evaluate

1 the probability that Aliens with such technology exists + the probability that aliens would be willing to full humans in such a way

Vs

2 the probability that God exists + the probability that God would manifest to humans in such a way

I would argue that 2 is more probable.

Show your math.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It is also possible for someone to think someone else is making excuses for God and project what they think onto the person they are talking to.

Explain how God would ever need to be excused by humans. Nothing could be more illogical, nothing.

When atheists say God needs excuses this is what atheists are saying: I know more than God. God is not doing what I think God should do so God needs an excuse for not doing what I think God should do, as if any human knows more than God or as if God is answerable to the humans for what he does or does not do.
Nothing could be more illogical or more arrogant, nothing.

Some people say horrible things about God and when you answer then you are accused of making excuses.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Nobody has any such expectation and most people will remain in the religion they were raised in. That is their loss. Only very few people will become Baha’is for a very long time.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Just as Christianity was the small gate and the narrow road that led to eternal life in the first centuries when there were few Christians, the Baha'i Faith is now the small gate and the narrow road that leads to eternal life in this age. The Baha’i Faith and is the narrow gate because only a few people recognize God’s new religion in the beginning and enter through that gate.

In every new age, the religion at the narrow gate is the new religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate, the gate that leads to eternal life, and He said few people would find that gate... It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through... It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183

God is not hidden. If God was hidden most people would not believe in God, but they do. Essentially you are saying you know more than God about how God should communicate which is logically impossible since God is all-knowing. That’s fine if you want to disagree with God’s time honored method of communicating via Messengers, it is no skin off God’s nose because God needs nobody’s belief.

It is not my job to convince anyone to investigate the Baha’i Faith. My job is done when I have delivered the message of Baha’u’llah unless people have questions. Everyone has free will to choose what to investigate and believe.

The fact that most people believe in some sort of a god isn't very convincing. 1) The vast majority of people who believe in a god were indoctrinated to believe so from a very young age. 2) Few if any of them can agree on who this god that has 'revealed' himself to them is. And it certainly isn't evidence for the claim that this god being is 'all-knowing'. In fact if the best way he can come up with for revealing himself is his 'time-honored' but horribly ineffective method of communicating via messengers, that suggest that he is far from all-knowing.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
That is simple to explain. What humans think is best for them is not always what God thinks is best but if God is all-knowing God knows more than we do about what is best for us, since no human is all-knowing.
Also, if God created humans (I mean allowed them to evolve) wouldn't God know what is best for humans?
My point is, if God have already optimized things for being the best it can possible be, then not only shouldn't people be sad about things going wrong, but happy that they weren't worse. Also it doesn't really make sense to try to improve things, because they are already as good as they can get, whether we try to do something or not, doesn't matter. Everything we do is essentially an illusion of making a difference.

There is is no reason to believe that everyone should be happy all the time, and that is not possible as long as we are living in a material world, which is the primary source of unhappiness. If everyone was happy here then they would never long for something better, that which is in heaven.
Exactly. As cold as it may sound, following your logic. People should be pleased that when they lose a loved one, whether that is in an accident or to a disease, they should be happy for the way they died, because it was the absolute best it could be. Obviously they can be sad for losing the person, but they should be pleased that God made them starve to death, because it would have been a lot worse hadn't he done it.

And this is where the logic breaks down, because God could make them die in a non suffering way, but apparently that would have been worse, which doesn't really make sense.

Baha'is believe that religion has always existed because God has always sent Prophets and Messengers, ever since humans evolved as humans.
When I read this explanation, I can't see how one doesn't instantly think, "How convenient that it works like that :)", it works exactly in such way that we can't verify it at all.

Should I rewrite this:
“And now regarding thy question, “How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?” Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.

Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.”


It would be like this:
"We have absolutely no clue, what the people before Adam and Eve thought, because the written language weren't invented. Therefore I have no clue whether or not, what i'm about to say is true or false. But nonetheless im going to explain why there might have been prophets before Adam and Eve. And the reason is, why not? Since you can prove that it weren't true, so assuming that there were, is equally likely."
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Show your math.
No I cant support my claims with rigorous math.

No I will not have an endless discussion with you again, until you adopt a clear view. (for example affirming that the alien hypothesis is better)

I you have a position of “I won’t affirm not deny anything, I will simply troll and play skeptic” then find someone’s to talk with.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
You will be waiting a long time, as forever is a long time.
I am completely fine with this. If the evidence never presents itself in my lifetime it will not matter in the slightest to my life and livelihood.
God has never presented any other direct evidence of His existence except the Messengers.
Which simply isn't good enough. I will continue to wait. Not with bated breath, mind you. Basically, I will wait, living my life under the pretenses that actually make sense until such time as it is evidenced that this idea about God's existence (which does not make sense) is actually representative of reality. Until that time, it simply doesn't matter.

Just think about that... there isn't even evidence that it matters! That's how little it matters.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No I cant support my claims with rigorous math.

No I will not have an endless discussion with you again, until you adopt a clear view. (for example affirming that the alien hypothesis is better)

The alien hypothesis is always better then the "supernatural entity" hypothesis, for the simple reason that it requires less extra-ordinary assumptions.

Aliens, after all, are physical biological organisms. And we know those can exist. There are trillions of them on this planet.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The alien hypothesis is always better then the "supernatural entity" hypothesis, for the simple reason that it requires less extra-ordinary assumptions.

Aliens, after all, are physical biological organisms. And we know those can exist. There are trillions of them on this planet.
You are talking about Aliens with super technology that allows them to move and manipulate cosmic dust clouds that are thousands of light years big. That where willign to play a bad joke to us humans.

I would argue that God is more porbable than aliens because we don’t have good arguments in favor of the existence of God, and no arguments for the existence of super intelligent aliens .

And given the existence of God its more likely that he would manifest to us telling the truth than the probabilities of Aliens manifesting to us with a lie and a bad joke.

In any case your position is very telling, if not even a message in the cosmos saying “hey @TagliatelliMonster I am God and I exists”, is good enough to convince you then the problem is your extreme skepticism and not the evidence itslef.
 
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