If God existed how could it be proven?

[Trailblazer]

You better or you might get stuck with me as your neighbor in some slum area in the spiritual world.

As it presently stands I'd rather be with the atheists wherever they go than with God in heaven... Yes, I have a lot of work to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Anyway, why Adam? Someone whose story sounds so mythical, even to Baha'is.. Why make him so special?

You'd have to ask Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha. I don't know where it comes from, I just believe it.
Adam was the first Prophet of the Adamic Cycle of religion but He was not the first man because humans have existed for about 200,000 years.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I don't know where it comes from, I just believe it.

Those who believe things without evidence are many a times fooled and cheated.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

If God existed, could we prove it? How could we prove it?

How could we prove that God exists if God is in hiding, undetectable by humans?

How could we prove God exists if God is not in the material world and has no physical properties?

Since God insists on hiding, it makes more sense to me that God should provide the evidence or proof, especially if God wants people to believe that He exists.

But how could God provide evidence or proof that He exists?

If God does not provide any evidence or proof why should we believe that God exists? How would it be fair for God to expect us to believe with no evidence or proof?

If God existed, what would God do to prove it? How could God prove that He exists and still remain in hiding?

Atheists, if God existed what would you expect God to do to prove that He exists? What would be adequate proof for you to believe that God exists? Would you expect absolute proof of would you accept evidence?

God cannot be proven or disproven - and He is not going to leave any evidence of His existence if He wants people to believe in Him.

 

[Truthseeker]

But there's more issues. Adam is part of the Jewish story. Other cultures had stories that I think pre-date the Genesis. Some Hindus believe in several incarnations of Vishnu that go way back and way beyond Krishna. But Baha'u'llah doesn't mention or acknowledges them? Anyway, why Adam? Someone whose story sounds so mythical, even to Baha'is.. Why make him so special?

Yes, I know about so-called incarnations of Vishnu before Krishna. I don't know if Baha'u'llah mentions even Krishna anywhere in His Writings, but he doesn't in what is translated to English. Rama is the one immediately before Krishna, that's all I remember from my knowledge of Hindu. 'Abdu'l-Baha is the first one translated to English who mentions Krishna, but He says nothing about Rama. It's up to scholars and other individuals to decide if Rama represents some earlier Manifestation at the present time. I have no opinion on this. I don't care if he existed or not.

As to Adam, I can only hypothesize that Adam is dimly remembered from thousands of years ago and He was transformed from the first Manifestation of an age to the first person of mankind, and a mythological story was attached to him. His name did not even have to be Adam, in my opinion. The name by Muhammad and Baha'u'llah was conveniently used as was used in the Bible. Someone like Noah was in a similar situation.

Sometimes Abdu'l-Baha talks of Adam as the first man, but that is just a convenience for the listener. He is simultaneously a symbol for the first human and the first Manifestation.

 

[Trailblazer]

God cannot be proven or disproven - and He is not going to leave any evidence of His existence if He wants people to believe in Him.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

 

[Truthseeker]

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

To me faith means not faith that God exists, but faith in His Manifestations, so that quote seems a little off to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

To me faith means not faith that God exists, but faith in His Manifestations, so that quote seems a little off to me.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

The verse does not say faith in the Manifestation. "must believe that He exists" refers to God.
To me faith means faith that God exists and the evidence is the Manifestations of God. We have to have faith that the Manifestations were sent by God, but we have to even more faith to believe that an Unseen God exists, and we have to have even more faith to believe that God is loving, since there is no evidence of that, just scriptures that say that.

 

[CG Didymus]

As it presently stands I'd rather be with the atheists wherever they go than with God in heaven... Yes, I have a lot of work to do.

Back in the 70's, a Baha'i lady said she had a dream one night of Satan playing some red hot music on a red hot piano. I forget, but everybody was probably dancing and having a good time. She said, "Well if that's what hell's like... It's good enough for me." But, you know that's not what most Christians believe hell is like. They say it is fire and brimstone and lots of torment. But what's their heaven like? Playing harps all day and praising and worshipping God? Forever?

 

[Trailblazer]

Back in the 70's, a Baha'i lady said she had a dream one night of Satan playing some red hot music on a red hot piano. I forget, but everybody was probably dancing and having a good time. She said, "Well if that's what hell's like... It's good enough for me." But, you know that's not what most Christians believe hell is like. They say it is fire and brimstone and lots of torment. But what's their heaven like? Playing harps all day and praising and worshipping God? Forever?

I don't think Christians have any conception of what heaven will be like. Baha'is do not know much either because God is keeping that under His hat...

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

Baha'is do not know much about heaven, but at least we know what eternal life is, thanks to Abdu'l-Baha and Some Answered Questions. To gain eternal life is to gain heaven.

All souls continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls have eternal life (everlasting life). Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him. Baha'u'llah wrote the same thing about believing in Him and gaining eternal life.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225

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Baha'is do not believe that hell is a geographical location or a fiery pit that people go to and burn forever. We believe that was allegorical. What hell is is described in the last sentence of the passage below.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

Abdu'l-Baha also described hell, which is being veiled from God. People who are distant from God do not have eternal life, and although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies they are “as dead” compared to those souls who are close to God.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, I know about so-called incarnations of Vishnu before Krishna. I don't know if Baha'u'llah mentions even Krishna anywhere in His Writings, but he doesn't in what is translated to English. Rama is the one immediately before Krishna, that's all I remember from my knowledge of Hindu. 'Abdu'l-Baha is the first one translated to English who mentions Krishna, but He says nothing about Rama. It's up to scholars and other individuals to decide if Rama represents some earlier Manifestation at the present time. I have no opinion on this. I don't care if he existed or not.

As to Adam, I can only hypothesize that Adam is dimly remembered from thousands of years ago and He was transformed from the first Manifestation of an age to the first person of mankind, and a mythological story was attached to him. His name did not even have to be Adam, in my opinion. The name by Muhammad and Baha'u'llah was conveniently used as was used in the Bible. Someone like Noah was in a similar situation.

Sometimes Abdu'l-Baha talks of Adam as the first man, but that is just a convenience for the listener. He is simultaneously a symbol for the first human and the first Manifestation.

I'm perfectly fine with all of them being mythological. But, because Baha'is make Adam and Krishna manifestations, then they have to be believed as having really existed. Same with Noah, but then what do we believe is true about Noah? A world-wide flood? Lots of Christians believe it really happened and believe there is geological evidence for it. "Bible-believing" Christians need Adam and Noah to be true... exactly how the Bible story describes them or their whole belief system falls apart. Baha'is don't need or want those stories to be literally true, but they need the Bible and the religions that believe in the Bible to be true. For me, like I said, I'm fine if all of them were just made up myths.

 

[Truthseeker]

I'm perfectly fine with all of them being mythological. But, because Baha'is make Adam and Krishna manifestations, then they have to be believed as having really existed. Same with Noah, but then what do we believe is true about Noah? A world-wide flood? Lots of Christians believe it really happened and believe there is geological evidence for it. "Bible-believing" Christians need Adam and Noah to be true... exactly how the Bible story describes them or their whole belief system falls apart. Baha'is don't need or want those stories to be literally true, but they need the Bible and the religions that believe in the Bible to be true. For me, like I said, I'm fine if all of them were just made up myths.

There is a book called
Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries About The Event That Changed History

Over the millennia, the legend of a great deluge has endured in the biblical story of Noah and in such Middle Eastern myths as the epic of Gilgamesh. Now two distinguished geophysicists have discovered a catastrophic event that changed history, a gigantic flood 7,600 years ago in what is today the Black Sea.
Using sound waves and coring devices to probe the sea floor, William Ryan and Walter Pitman revealed clear evidence that this inland body of water had once been a vast freshwater lake lying hundreds of feet below the level of the world's rising oceans. Sophisticated dating techniques confirmed that 7,600 years ago the mounting seas had burst through the narrow Bosporus valley, and the salt water of the Mediterranean had poured into the lake with unimaginable force, racing over beaches and up rivers, destroying or chasing all life before it. The rim of the lake, which had served as an oasis, a Garden of Eden for farms and villages in a vast region of semi-desert, became a sea of death. The people fled, dispersing their languages, genes, and memories.

The description is a little misleading. The Black Sea is so vast that the water level rose slowly. I remember this from reading the book.

This event was the event, I believe, that gave rise to a certain story in Gilgamesh written in Sumerian about a man who used an ark to cope with the rising waters. In turn, the Hebrews picked this story and transformed it. The name of the man who built the ark was not named Noah, but in the Hebrew version was named Noah. The moral of the story was also different as I recall.

No, there was not a world-wide flood, but an enlarged body of water called the Black Sea at the end.

I hope I'm not disturbing anybody with my opinion here, I don't want to cause any unnecessary doubt on anybody's part.

 

[CG Didymus]

His name did not even have to be Adam

Even the name Jesus is strange to me. That's not how you say his name in Hebrew. Yet, I remember Christians falling in love with the name, Jesus. They say, "There's just something about that name." Then Christians make up a story about Satan... that originally he was an archangel named Lucifer. Again, why don't they use the Hebrew word?
'

To me faith means not faith that God exists, but faith in His Manifestations, so that quote seems a little off to me.

Faith, belief, trust? I think they're all kind of saying the same thing. Trust in God. Have faith in God. Or, believe in God. Even though, there's a lack of evidence. Unless, you put your faith, trust and belief in the Bible. And then put your faith, trust and belief in a certain interpretation of the Bible. Then, with that, a person thinks they have the truth. But then... this happens...

No, there was not a world-wide flood, but an enlarged body of water called the Black Sea at the end.

I hope I'm not disturbing anybody with my opinion here, I don't want to cause any unnecessary doubt on anybody's part.

Science or another religion, like the Baha'i Faith, bursts their bubble. Causing doubt is bound to happen. Christians have successfully put doubts in my mind about a religion like the Baha'i Faith. And Baha'is have put substantial doubts in my trust of what Christians say.

 

[Trailblazer]

Science or another religion, like the Baha'i Faith, bursts their bubble. Causing doubt is bound to happen. Christians have successfully put doubts in my mind about a religion like the Baha'i Faith. And Baha'is have put substantial doubts in my trust of what Christians say.

I suggest you use your God-given powers of reason, what Baha'is call the rational soul, in order to determine which religion makes more sense, rather than letting people tell you the other religion is wrong. Christians will always tell you the Baha'i Faith is wrong, because it has to be wrong in order for Christianity to be right, but Christianity does not have to be wrong in order for the Baha'i Faith to be right. Although certain Church doctrines have to be wrong, that is not the true Christianity that Baha'is believe in.

 

[thomas loebel]

Not god cannot be first or it would already be god where no other gives a relative response. To have a concept of god is to use not god that came from god to exist as concept. the word of god is the spirit of gods words written that find god as the word.