If evidence for god is in abundance, why is faith necessary?

[LuisDantas]

But why do you even imagine such a fantastical universe? Where did you come up with this idea?

I assume it is not evidence based.

My thoughts exactly. Where did those ideas come from, @Muslim-UK ?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Intended or not, we will never be able to know either way. What we do know is the following:

So far this is the only known Universe.
It started from nothing.
There are various constants pointing to fine tuning
This Planet is perfectly placed for life to evolve
The building blocks of life, cells have code written into the DNA

"So far this is the only known Universe." Yes, at this point in time, this is the only universe we are aware of.

"It started from nothing." According to who? The most popular hypothesis on the origins of the universe suggest that the universe once existed as an extremely compact singularity. In much the same way that a single atom contains the massive energy that can be unleashed via an atomic reaction.

"There are various constants pointing to fine tuning" Again, there is only 'fine tuning' if you make the unsubstantiated assumption that the universe was designed to be the way that it is.

"This Planet is perfectly placed for life to evolve" That's like the water in a puddle after a storm looking at the depression in the ground it exists in and the water imagining: This depression must have been specifically DESIGNED for me, since it accommodates me PERFECTLY! But of course the depression in the ground wasn't DESIGNED to accommodate the water, it was the water that adapted to accommodate to the conditions of the depression in the ground.

"The building blocks of life, cells have code written into the DNA" Yes, the building blocks of life do function is a specific manner. And yes, human beings have defined this process using a consistent code. So what?

 

[viole]

Islam because it is a Religion open to all, and the most important thing for me, the concept of GOD makes sense. Also Islam explains the origins of all the other Religions, basically they come from the same source, but overtime people started to mix Religion with culture and Scriptures were not preserved. The original Religion was belief in ONE GOD, Monotheism and Islam is merely a return to that simple message.

Does Islam share a common source with the above mentioned Juju at the bottom of the sea? Or what the aborigines believed in? What about Apollo?

By the way, none of the arguments provide any evidence whatsoever for the addressed God to be true. Open to all? mmh, how does that prove that Allah is true? Original religion was belief in ONE God? And, does that prove Allah? I can make up Bob, the giant pink turtle who created the Universe, and He is one. Did I prove Bob?

But I do not need to point that out. If you had the evidence, that Allah, Jesus or Whomever is true, you, and all all other phylosophical inclined theists, would not need cosmology nor fine tuning to start with, as I said.

In addition to my response above, you have to study and see what make sense to you. But most importantly you have to be Sincere.

Of course I am sincere. Do you think that believers in alternative Gods outside Allah are not sincere?

Study starting with concept of GOD in each faith, but remember, it likely matters little which path you take as long as you worship GOD alone.

Do you think you would be a Muslim if you were born in Australia 2000 years ago?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Repox]

It is interesting, if you apply "laws of probability" to the study of the universe, you'll find it is impossible to explain its existence with scientific explanations. What are the laws of probability for "physical laws" evolving from the Big Bang. And then there are all those species on earth with functioning organs, etc. Was that an accident of nature? You can go on and on with examples of how impossible it would be for "accidental occurrences." Laws of probability will get you every time.

There is only one explanation for the universe. God did it!

 

[David T]

Much slower so which fa

A lot of what people present as scientific thought is not. The scientific method is fairly new to history. What disputes there are, however, tend to self correct. Peer review and testing are part of the process.
Religious doctrines, on the other hand....

Is a slowly changing fallacy less true than a rapidly changing fallacy?

 

[Muslim-UK]

My thoughts exactly. Where did those ideas come from?

Muslims believe we are here by design, and like all complicated created things, we have been given a manual on what is expected from us in this life through a string of successive Prophets and Messengers; the last of which was Prophet Muhammad pbuh. He delivered the Qur'an, (speech of GOD) and his sayings and actions are recorded in the Hadiths. The ideas about the Seven Heavens come from the Qur'an and Hadiths and have been put together in a video presentation for ease of understanding:

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Yes, I agree this is quite the problem for many. Looking closer to home perhaps you can explain were the origin of the knowledge babies are born with comes from? What about the code found in DNA? If everything happened by random chance, and our sole purpose is to reproduce, keep warm and seek shelter from the elements like the rest of the animal kingdom, then how do you explain the origin of our desire as a species to want answers to deep and meaningful questions, why we want to explore in every direction, why we care about the Planet etc? How does natural selection explain morals? Where does our consciousness come from?

There are plenty of alternate explanations for ALL of the items you posed. Here are some (granted, I don't expect you to accept these - I certainly don't accept yours!):

origin of the knowledge babies are born with

It's fairly obvious a tree (without a brain) does not need to have knowledge in order to know to grow upward, right? Obvious that a sunflower doesn't need knowledge in order to turn toward the sun? Does it not, then, become obvious that some ability to respond to stimuli can be ingrown in a being? Even a baby? And just think of how much MORE opportunity there must be for innate/in-born behaviors when the creature DOES have a brain!

What about the code found in DNA?

Is it not true that our DNA is more complex than that of a single-celled organism? On up the chain of complexity of life we see an increase (on average) in complexity of the DNA that encodes each higher-order life-form. We even see traits leftover from a transition of this encoding - like vestigial whale hip-bones, humans' vestigial tail bones, etc. Is it not fairly obvious that DNA's complexity arose by accretion of adapted changes/traits via evolution? Again, you don't have to accept it - but it is an alternative description that doesn't need your explanation whatsoever.

how do you explain the origin of our desire as a species to want answers to deep and meaningful questions

This one's actually easy - and I am sure you thought you would stump me. Our human brains, arguably being the most complex and with the most processing power in all the animal kingdom, have simply gotten too big for our britches. It was advantageous to be smart, clever, crafty, and so we developed and honed this trait over thousands of generations. At a certain point, the power of our minds offered our "self awareness" to take on a "life of its own" after a fashion, and we began wondering over all of those abstract ideas we are able to wonder over. Something no other animal on Earth seems as capable of. Does this mean we were destined for anything more deep and meaningful than any other animal? No, it doesn't. It just means we were the first to develop it. Full stop.

How does natural selection explain morals?

Abstract thought explains morals. We humans were specialized in the intelligence department where we found our niche for survival, and eventually we were intelligent enough to wonder about our own condition. We were the first that "made it" to this level of mental processing capability. That's all.

Where does our consciousness come from?

I believe consciousness arose out of the need for "something" to take the helm of the community of living cells that made up a multi-cellular body. As the body evolved and changed and adapted, so too did the form and function of the "consciousness." Ultimately, I believe that the consciousness is a property of the body that evolved to serve as "Captain" of the vessel (the body) - "hired" to do the job of keeping the majority of that communal colony of individual living cells out of harm's way.

Again - no need for you to accept any of this. But these are alternative explanations - the ones which I happen to believe. I just want you to realize that IN NO WAY DO YOU HAVE A MONOPOLY ON THE ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS LIKE THESE. It is foolishness to think otherwise.

 

[Repox]

Muslims believe we are here by design, and like all complicated created things, we have been given a manual on what is expected from us in this life through a string of successive Prophets and Messengers; the last of which was Prophet Muhammad pbuh. He delivered the Qur'an, (speech of GOD) and his sayings and actions are recorded in the Hadiths. The ideas about the Seven Heavens come from the Qur'an and Hadiths and have been put together in a video presentation for ease of understanding:

I don't believe religious opinions constitutes scientific evidence. Otherwise, anyone's opinion would be valid, even atheists. In the world of material things, scientific explanations are necessary.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

By any logical standard if there was any evidence for the existence of god, that would make faith irrelevant.

Faith as in "belief" or faith as in "trust" or what?

GOD says look at Creation of the Universe, the fine tuning, our solar system, the perfect balance in the natural World, where everything has its role, to look at signs within us and come to know He exists 100%

Are we also supposed to see all the times it went wrong?

Blind faith is not allowed. Once you're convinced GOD exists, then you have faith in the hereafter and a day when you will return to GOD.

How does the existence of God tie in to beliefs in the hereafter and any return trips? Afterlives or "other realms of being" or whatever are irrelevant to the existence of a deity.

First, there is no evidence for god's existence

As most monotheists worship Yahweh, maybe He's on the "dead" part of His life cycle? He and Baal killed each other off about every year or so, as they were part of seasonal religious beliefs. Also, ancient Middle Eastern gods shared with other pantheons around the globe a need to ingest some sort of immortality food/drink with regularity. Stop the diet, kill the god permanently. It could be that Yahweh and El and Baal and others were alive at one point, but forgot to pay the grocery bill, so ....

I don't know Vishnu so if I asked someone to prove that Vishnu to exist, I would have no point in reference in whether "looking the universe" proves its existence or "reading the gita". I wouldn't know because I have not experienced Vishnu. It's a name and something written in a book. Hindu talk about Vishnu a lot. Very popular god and thousands of people are Vaishnavites. First I need some idea of what Vishnu is before I can figure a criteria of determining this god's existence.

I only read the Mahabharata and watched an anime of the Ramayana, but dang it, Vishnu is incredibly cool.

This is incorrect because you're assuming there is only faith and one version of "evidence". Many people have had experirences, eitehr spiritual, mystical or for some even supernatural, that would convince them, as very direct evidence, that god exists.

I agree. This is basically how I would describe my evidence. However, I also don't believe we should legislate or anything based on personal gnosis. I am a firm believer that laws should be based on evidence.

What sort of evidence do you personally require?

Something that can actually be traced to the Being in question would be nice, instead of reading human accounts of it.

And as experts have pointed out, WE as a species are responsible for interfering with the balanced system with our systematic cutting down of the rain forest and polluting habits.

We can also fix things. Where does God fit in?

We can only see as far as travelling light permits, we can see after the 'Big Bang' but nothing further. Once your rocket ship reaches that point, you should be able to verify what lies beyond. If there's no gateway leading to the Second Heaven, then I guess you were right, though I'm sure I have a pretty good explanation if that turns out to be the case.

But ancient people used to believe the afterlife took place on earth, another dimension on earth, a few miles above the atmosphere, etc. It just seems like the sky versions of the afterlife keep getting pushed back and back until now we have to leave the universe to get there. I personally prefer the "alternate dimension of earth" idea. Less travel.

How convenient for you that it is that far away.

I thought that planet from Stargate was the only thing you could find out there. Or a couple of different types of existence depending on which version of Star Trek you're watching.

Looking closer to home perhaps you can explain were the origin of the knowledge babies are born with comes from?

Perhaps you can explain stupidity that comes from adults?

Not you, just the species in general.

If everything happened by random chance, and our sole purpose is to reproduce, keep warm and seek shelter from the elements like the rest of the animal kingdom, then how do you explain the origin of our desire as a species to want answers to deep and meaningful questions, why we want to explore in every direction, why we care about the Planet etc?

People having to live subsistence living won't have that kind of free time. Not everyone wants exploration and those who do are wired to do that because when resources are limited, it behooves you to move to another place. If you destroy your living space, you will suffer and die.

How does natural selection explain morals?

Every social species has some sort of set of "rules" to go by that will be rewarded or punished depending on how well the member of that species kowtows to the rules. Moses didn't give the law to my dogs, but even my dogs know that stealing is wrong (unless they do it, LOL), lying is wrong (unless they do it), etc.

Also Islam explains the origins of all the other Religions

I'd rather read archaeological papers about it.

The original Religion was belief in ONE GOD

I don't feel this is supported by evidence.

Does Islam share a common source with the above mentioned Juju at the bottom of the sea? Or what the aborigines believed in? What about Apollo?

I've been reading a lot about Canaanite and similar myths, and some of them say that when certain disasters occurred, they would flee to Egypt or Greece and became THEIR pantheons until things died down and they could return home.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is interesting, if you apply "laws of probability" to the study of the universe, you'll find it is impossible to explain its existence with scientific explanations.

Is that so?

What are the laws of probability for "physical laws" evolving from the Big Bang.

100%, since they did.

That is how probability works. Once something is known to have happened, the probability of it happening is 100%.

Unless you are questioning how certain we are of the Big Bang?

And then there are all those species on earth with functioning organs, etc. Was that an accident of nature?

From all available evidence, yes, that is exactly right. Natural selection is a real thing.

You can go on and on with examples of how impossible it would be for "accidental occurrences." Laws of probability will get you every time.

There is only one explanation for the universe. God did it!

Uh, no, that is just not at all accurate.

 

[LuisDantas]

Muslims believe we are here by design, and like all complicated created things, we have been given a manual on what is expected from us in this life through a string of successive Prophets and Messengers; the last of which was Prophet Muhammad pbuh. He delivered the Qur'an, (speech of GOD) and his sayings and actions are recorded in the Hadiths. The ideas about the Seven Heavens come from the Qur'an and Hadiths and have been put together in a video presentation for ease of understanding:

Sounds rather Abrahamic far as doctrine goes.

Of course, that is to be expected, since we are talking about Islaam.

 

[Muslim-UK]

"It started from nothing." According to who? The most popular hypothesis on the origins of the universe suggest that the universe once existed as an extremely compact singularity. In much the same way that a single atom contains the massive energy that can be unleashed via an atomic reaction.

Excellent, and we theists say, The Creator was responsible for bringing that Singularity into being. Science has no firm answer on the issue.

"There are various constants pointing to fine tuning" Again, there is only 'fine tuning' if you make the unsubstantiated assumption that the universe was designed to be the way that it is.

The chances of ONE Universe coming into being are astronomical, the chances of the same Universe not collapsing on itself are again, astronomical, the chances of the amount of energy being just right for the universe to come into being are astronomical, etc etc. You've agreed this is the only Universe we know about, so it becomes mathematically impossible for it to be random chance.

"This Planet is perfectly placed for life to evolve" That's like the water in a puddle after a storm looking at the depression in the ground it exists in and the water imagining: This depression must have been specifically DESIGNED for me, since it accommodates me PERFECTLY! But of course the depression in the ground wasn't DESIGNED to accommodate the water, it was the water that adapted to accommodate to the conditions of the depression in the ground.

The Planet is some 4 Billion years old, and again mathematically impossible for all life to have evolved to it's current form in that time period. It's isn't simply a case of conditions being just right for water to fill a hole, chemicals, amino acids, proteins and other elements had to all come together in a manner pointing clearly to a Designer being responsible.

"The building blocks of life, cells have code written into the DNA" Yes, the building blocks of life do function is a specific manner. And yes, human beings have defined this process using a consistent code. So what?

The code shows the originator must have been mind boggling complex in its intelligence. We know a single teaspoon of DNA contains as much information as all the books in the World put together. We say The Creator is the intelligent designer behind DNA code. That's what

 

[Enoch07]

I asked this question on the atheist forum of which I am a member; yes, we get theists who join the forum for debate all the time, we even have some years-long theistic members who still post there.

Anywho, onto the actual subject in relation to the title of the thread, verbatim:

By any logical standard if there was any evidence for the existence of god, that would make faith irrelevant.

That faith is needed in the religious community reasonably means that zero evidence is in existence to prove god is real.

Evidence or proof that God exist would not make faith useless. Someone knowing God exist does not mean that they will love or trust in God. That is what faith is after all. Trust in and love of God, knowing that in the end He will make good on His promise to us. There is a difference between knowing of His existence, and loving Him.

 

[allfoak]

I asked this question on the atheist forum of which I am a member; yes, we get theists who join the forum for debate all the time, we even have some years-long theistic members who still post there.

Anywho, onto the actual subject in relation to the title of the thread, verbatim:

By any logical standard if there was any evidence for the existence of god, that would make faith irrelevant.

That faith is needed in the religious community reasonably means that zero evidence is in existence to prove god is real.

Gathering evidence for God is not the same as gathering evidence for a murder. God is Spirit, so the evidence for God will not be detected with the senses that can only detect material evidence.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Does Islam share a common source with the above mentioned Juju at the bottom of the sea? Or what the aborigines believed in? What about Apollo?

Islam mentions following myths of old that should be discarded, but if the message of Juju or Apollo resonates with you, then carry on. The Aborigines were aware of a Supreme Sky Being.

By the way, none of the arguments provide any evidence whatsoever for the addressed God to be true. Open to all? mmh, how does that prove that Allah is true? Original religion was belief in ONE God? And, does that prove Allah? I can make up Bob, the giant pink turtle who created the Universe, and He is one. Did I prove Bob?

What predictions did Bob make? What information did he give you that no other person on the Planet knew at the time? Has Bob given you any power to help spread his message throughout the World? My GOD has done all of this as signs for people who think.

Of course I am sincere. Do you think that believers in alternative Gods outside Allah are not sincere?

I was referring to atheists, most of whom I've found to be insincere.

Do you think you would be a Muslim if you were born in Australia 2000 years ago?

Yes as it simply refers to one who follows God by submitting his will to GOD.

 

[ChristineM]

I asked this question on the atheist forum of which I am a member; yes, we get theists who join the forum for debate all the time, we even have some years-long theistic members who still post there.

Anywho, onto the actual subject in relation to the title of the thread, verbatim:

By any logical standard if there was any evidence for the existence of god, that would make faith irrelevant.

That faith is needed in the religious community reasonably means that zero evidence is in existence to prove god is real.

It is said by religious folk that god (the Abrahamic version at least) is capable of anything and everything

So the simple solution that would end atheism (and faith) in a second is for god to appear and say "hi".

 

[viole]

Islam mentions following myths of old that should be discarded, but if the message of Juju or Apollo resonates with you, then carry on. The Aborigines were aware of a Supreme Sky Being.

And why should they be discarded? Because you say so?
And Apollo does not resonate with me, but He resonated with lots of people. What can you show me that would make your resonance more plausible than theirs?

I have no idea concerning aborigines. Probably. It is human to tend to believe in Supreme Beings, apparently. However, I doubt She looks anything close to Allah, though.

What predictions did Bob make? What information did he give you that no other person on the Planet knew at the time? Has Bob given you any power to help spread his message throughout the World? My GOD has done all of this as signs for people who think.

So, you have evidence of Allah, after all. Why do you need fine tuning and stuff, then, if you think it is so convincing? Same problem. Still unresolved, I am afraid.

I was referring to atheists, most of whom I've found to be insincere.

Are they? I can assure you I am very sincere. But if you think that, say, Christians or believers in Jujus are sincere, how could they go so wrong, if they went wrong? How does sincerity help you in any way or form to pick the right god?

Yes as it simply refers to one who follows God by submitting his will to GOD.

So, every theist is a Muslim?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Akivah]

I asked this question on the atheist forum of which I am a member; yes, we get theists who join the forum for debate all the time, we even have some years-long theistic members who still post there.

Anywho, onto the actual subject in relation to the title of the thread, verbatim:

By any logical standard if there was any evidence for the existence of god, that would make faith irrelevant.

That faith is needed in the religious community reasonably means that zero evidence is in existence to prove god is real.

G-d is everywhere. There is no time and no place that G-d is absent. You can't detect the presence of something without being able to detect its absence. To be able to find something, you have to start with where it isn't.

 

[Sanzbir]

It's not. The concept of "faith" has devolved over time to become something to the effect of "believing in something with no evidence". That's not what it initially meant, considering that as defined it's basically just nonsense. The etymology of the word essentially just originally means "trust".

Basically I'd say the way "faith" should ideally be used is like when you say you have faith in your friend or partner or spouse. It's not a statement that you trust them without evidence, rather it's just a statement of trust in that person. Usually you have faith in another person because they gave you a reason to do so. Faith in the divine should be no different, I think.

It's sad that even many religious people now idealize the idea that faith should mean blind belief.

 

[Quintessence]

Evidence or proof that God exist would not make faith useless. Someone knowing God exist does not mean that they will love or trust in God. That is what faith is after all. Trust in and love of God, knowing that in the end He will make good on His promise to us. There is a difference between knowing of His existence, and loving Him.

Thanks for articulating the logical inconsistencies I saw in some of the opening post's statements far better than I was able to.

(the inconsistencies would look a bit different for different types of theists, granted, but this is a good framing for the Abrahamic one-god types!)