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If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
If they had not sinned, our existence would be in doubt, as we were born in sin.
This is actually a mistranslation by Augustine. The doctrine is faulty. It can't be found among Jews or Orthdox Christians.

'Augustine came up with this doctrine in order to combat a heresy. Pelagius, another theologian, believed that humans could be sinless and pointed out that Jesus had referred to Abel as ‘righteous’ (Matthew 23:35), which implied he had been killed before committing any sin. Augustine countered that even babies who die unbaptised have guilt. To prove this, he quoted Romans 5:12 from his Latin translation of the New Testament: “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, in whom all sinned” (my italics).

But Augustine’s proof that we all share and inherit Adam’s death was based on a faulty translation of the original Greek. His Latin translation of “in whom” should actually have read “because”. So the correct translation of Romans 5:12 is, “Sin…came to all people, because all sinned.”

The Greek clearly says “because” (Greek houtoos), but what did Paul mean by that? Either he was saying “death came to all people because all [people have themselves] sinned” or “death came to all people, [and] because [death is due to sin] all sinned.”'

 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
In Genesis 3:14 God is cursing the serpent contradicting your theory. additionally, it was God who promised Avraham the holy land and it was he who got the people of Israel out of Egypt to Mount Sinai and told us 613 commandments, which as I was told, Christ was not objecting to them or telling his followers this commandments were the word Satan. Also, I do recall the first commandment of the ten commandments Exodus 20:2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." in this phrase, God identified by his name. Judaism does not believe in two gods
The law is about knowledge of good and evil, which is the same as the symbol of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Law was connected to Satan, by the symbolism of Satan in the tree of law, which teaches us good and evil. Law was not condoned by God in paradise, since God knew law would lead to death. Law is vulnerable to human subjectivity, whereas paradise was the logical product of natural selection and integration. Look at the dual injustice system in the USA. Law is flawed and corruptible. Any good defense law will try to game the legal system. Law can even be used to serve evil; Hitler.

Satan is often symbolized as a serpent or snake. This is a cold blooded critter, like strict enforcement of law and the cold impulses that need law, to control. Jesus, as the lamb, is symbolize a gentle and warm blooded critter; love.

My earliest intuitions on this came from the book of Job. In this book, Satan is getting God to alter the fate of Job. This shows how much control Satan was given on the earth, as Lord of the Earth. This symbolism shows how law can be used to lead God; laws of man and Satan, instead of follow his lead.

This finally all made sense if you assume God was resting on the first Sabbath day, with the duration of that rest not exactly quantified; open ended duration of rest. Days in the divine realm are not the same as earth days. How does day one in creation correlate to an earth day, when the earth was not yet formed? God is often describe as light; speed of light, which to me implied Einstein's relativity and time dilation. Different time references allows science and the Bible to agree on the time scale of creation.

If you look at science times estimate for cosmology to evolution, forming the universe takes the longest; 10-15 billion years, then the sun and earth; 5 billion, then life; about 1 billion, species; 100 million, etc. This implies a relativistic change in God's time reference; slowing from the speed of light reference, until God become man; earth time. This can be modeled With connected space-time and separated space and time.

If God was on the first Sabbath rest on day seven, and the human Sabbath was an image of the Divine, God would not be working as he rested. He would need to have others doing the work. Satan, who had been Lucifer, was near the top of the divine food chain. A third of the Angels served him; Revelations. He was put in the Garden by God, in advance, since God knew would be needed for God's upcoming rest. God would be like the chairman of the Board, who heads the steering committee, but does not do work. Satan would be the CEO in charge of daily operations, based on God's work order instructions. God was in on this, but Satan was given the job to implement God's policy, as God rested; tomato or tomarto.

Satan does not lose his job until Revelations. Satan was condoned in heaven from before Genesis to Revelation. He was in charge through the time of Jesus. But eventually he loses his job, and his power is no longer divinely sanctioned; thrown from heaven to the earth.

When Satan still had all his divine power, he offers Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth, if Jesus would bow and serve him. This offer is where the true authority of Satan, on earth, is shown. Had Jesus accepted the offer, he would have become the Messiah that had been promised by Satan, on behalf of God. Jesus refusal to accept the offer, alters the fate of Satan; New dispensation. Satan had tried to lead the Son of God astray, from the Sabbath rest, leading to a political battle in Heaven. Satan gets the boot with 1/3 of the Angels. Satan was very powerful.

Jesus said nobody has seen the Father except the Son. This is because God was on Sabbath rest and he was not working. However, he was still interacting with his family on the Sabbath. God did not even intercede for his Son, who died for the sins imply by Law. Satan was able to get even with Jesus, but he misjudges his authority as the Son. The political battle would reach a pinnacle and Satan would be demoted. Jesus would take over as CEO.

In Revlation God starts to work again, forming a new heaven and earth.
 
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I don't believe that because it puts God in the position of creating evil with some people per Calvinism. And the question of God being omniscient is very problematic.

Also, I do not believe Adam & Eve were real people but are symbolic in the context of myth [story teaching basic beliefs & morals].
GOD did in truth create the being which became Satan. This is undeniable. HOWEVER, GOD didn't create the evil. Evil was authored by an angel who wanted to usurp GOD his CREATOR and also took a portion of the heavenly host along with him in his efforts. I cannot believe Adam and Eve were NOT real people because even CHRIST JESUS promoted GOD's design of marriage, and that necessitates both ADAM & EVE . Knowing this, I fully believe that GOD created a perfect Universe and Adam and Eve were created good; however, GOD foreknew that they would be temped by Satan and fail. Foreknowledge, doesn't mean one created things to be evil, but it does admit to creating with the understanding that Salvation would eventually play an important role in saving those who want to be saved and joined with GOD for all eternity.
 
if you are going to make cases from the gospels, about which I don't care, those cases will not be really useful. The temples were destroyed for other reasons, not Jesus.
Was the temple at Jerusalem destroyed? Did GOD allow this to happen? What were the other reasons?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Was the temple at Jerusalem destroyed? Did GOD allow this to happen? What were the other reasons?
Here is some information

 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
GOD did in truth create the being which became Satan. This is undeniable.
No, it is not necessarily undeniable as some theologians feel that haSatan may be symbolic for that which is inside us that encourages self-centeredness and greed.
I cannot believe Adam and Eve were NOT real people because even CHRIST JESUS promoted GOD's design of marriage, and that necessitates both ADAM & EVE
Marriage is mentioned many times in scripture, thus a real Adam & Eve would not be necessary.

IMO, the Creation accounts [there are two of them] were likely composed to counter the Babylonian creation accounts that were more widespread and written earlier than the Tanakh.
 
My initial response, post #407, was not intended as an attack on Christianity. It was simply a curt dismissal of the volume from which you chose to quote. If you believe that the CJB was not published with an intent to convert Jews you have obviously not read Goble nor been to the website of the organization behind the CJB’s publication.
I don't believe you were attacking Christianity.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
GOD did in truth create the being which became Satan. This is undeniable. HOWEVER, GOD didn't create the evil. Evil was authored by an angel who wanted to usurp GOD his CREATOR and also took a portion of the heavenly host along with him in his efforts. I cannot believe Adam and Eve were NOT real people because even CHRIST JESUS promoted GOD's design of marriage, and that necessitates both ADAM & EVE . Knowing this, I fully believe that GOD created a perfect Universe and Adam and Eve were created good; however, GOD foreknew that they would be temped by Satan and fail. Foreknowledge, doesn't mean one created things to be evil, but it does admit to creating with the understanding that Salvation would eventually play an important role in saving those who want to be saved and joined with GOD for all eternity.
God did not create evil. Law and knowledge of good and evil created evil, by defining both good and evil as reflections of each other. Good and evil exist in pairs. If you can name an evil; killing, we can also name its reflected good; saving life. If you can name a good; love, I can name its reflected evil, hate. They always work in pairs.

The analogy in physics is the magnet. A magnet has north and south poles that always come paired up. If we measure a North Pole, you know a south pole has to nearby, even if hidden, since they always go together. There is no such thing as a magnetic monopole in physics, which is a north or a south pole all by themselves. They are always a set, even if one is hidden.

Good does not exist by itself, without evil, due to the way law and knowledge of good and evil are defined. There is no such things as a monopole, called the tree of knowledge of good. If someone wrote such a book, it would trigger thoughts of the reflected evil that would conflict with this list of good, since these always come in polarized pairs.

This was the problem with law. If you discovered a new good, since there is no monopole, evil will be implied, to show its face and ruin what was once only nice. A law is then added. This is the nature of original sin; even if we try to do good, evil is implied and will accompany it; albeit often repressed. Addiction often starts out as a good time, that open the mind or lowers inhibitions. To recreated that good, with its implied but repressed evil, the dose of party material increases until the good is swallowed by evil; addiction.

There is a neural and consciousness explanation based on law gaming the natural brain. When the animal brain writes to memory emotional tags are added to sensory content. Our memory has sensory content and feeling tags. This is why are strongest memories also have strong feeling tones. This is useful to the animal brain, since if they encounter a similar situation, they can react to the feeling tag; eat or leave it. In the natural brain, each type of memory; situational, gets one feeling tag for situational clarity.

Law and knowledge of good and evil was not natural, because it gamed the natural brain. Knowledge of good and evil; magnet with two poles impose two conflicting emotional tags; rest and fear, for one moral magnet An example of the affects of conflicting emotions would be if you were in a love and hate relationship. You cannot approach or leave, but get stuck in an orbit due to the conflicting feelings to come or go. If there was a single tag; love, you can approach and embrace, or if there was the single tag hate, you leave and move on. This is natural. Conflicting emotional tags due to law magnet caused a repression; like a computer that is hung up. You second guess your spontaneity.

Since the conflicting tags causes repression and damming of your mental energy, and since law is a binary with the poles of the law magnet coming in pairs, the brain appeared to have resolved the conflict, by repressing the dark side; fear tag. The light side is allowed to become more conscious. We feel righteous in our behavior.

The self righteous will act good by the law, on the surface, but they still have an inner Satan subroutine, that is the consolidated dark side reflection of all our conscious good. This can add a harsh and unforgiven attitude to the shiny light of the self righteous.

The Satan subroutine is a real thing and is created anew by each generation, as they learn cultural knowledge of good and evil and law. Jesus came to do away with polarization of the psyche caused by law magnet. Without law the moral magnet does not form, and memory uses one one tag per memory based on circumstances. One becomes morally neutral like instinct; children of the promise.

Uninstalling the Satan subroutine is not easy. Living without law will cause an inversion. The dark side will come out to the surface to become more conscious; easier to deal with. This places the good, inside, more repressed. The symbolism of Revelations are about this uninstall. The Anti-christ is the dark reflection of all the good that was Jesus. He will be the satan subroutine incarnate in human form; God save us all. As the darkness expresses itself, a new reflected good will be defined inside the moral magnet, until the uninstall is done.
 
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Here is some information

Don't you think it rather odd that GOD has allowed the Temple to remain destitute for nearly 2000 years? The Jews have most certainly faced war and destruction earlier, yet not for such a very long time. If I were a Jew, who didn't have a regard for JESUS, I certainly would wonder why are things different this time around at the very least.

My Christian view is that the ancient Jews in general rejected their MESSIAH. It wasn't because HE was murdered. He atoning sacrifice was/is the perfect and final sacrifice for all humanity of those who trusted/trust on HIM. It was that HIS resurrection was covered up by the Sanhedrim in an attempt to discredit the obvious. It was the fact that those who should have known better rejected HIM and taught others to reject HIM. JESUS in fact killed the reason for the temple to exist. It was but an illustration to begin with. But the religious leaders saw that "their power" was being undermined among the people. John 11:45-53
45 Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.

“What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53 So from that day on they plotted to take his life.
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Now as a Christian, I also firmly believe that the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are still being fulfilled and that the Temple at Jerusalem will eventually be reconstructed according to the Bible. All of this is happening as was/is the reestablishment of the Nation of Israel. Yet, I also know that the MESSIAH/CHRIST will return to set up HIS Millennial Kingdom (1000 year reign). This is in the nearing future but not right at this moment, but soon...
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Don't you think it rather odd that GOD has allowed the Temple to remain destitute for nearly 2000 years? The Jews have most certainly faced war and destruction earlier, yet not for such a very long time. If I were a Jew, who didn't have a regard for JESUS, I certainly would wonder why are things different this time around at the very least.
There are different ways this can be dealt with in Judaism, but I'm gonna let someone who is into Judaism deal with this. Let me just say that it's not anywhere near as cut-and-dry as you say above.

I'm outta here til Monday.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Don't you think it rather odd that GOD has allowed the Temple to remain destitute for nearly 2000 years? The Jews have most certainly faced war and destruction earlier, yet not for such a very long time. If I were a Jew, who didn't have a regard for JESUS, I certainly would wonder why are things different this time around at the very least.
I don't think it odd at all. In fact, that fact is an essential point that drives a lot of Jewish thought and instruction. Your particular opinion about things, and your Christian view is a good thing for you to have as a Chrsitian but it has no relevance to Judaism.
 
I don't think it odd at all. In fact, that fact is an essential point that drives a lot of Jewish thought and instruction. Your particular opinion about things, and your Christian view is a good thing for you to have as a Chrsitian but it has no relevance to Judaism.
Jesus was a Jew born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth so there is some relation...
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Jesus was a Jew born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth so there is some relation...
that's like saying Manson has some relationship to Christianity because he claimed to be a real Christian. Is that an affiliation you endorse?

But to be more precise, what has no relation is your opinion of Jewish ideas and Judaism. As I wrote, "Your particular opinion about things, and your Christian view is a good thing for you to have as a Chrsitian but it has no relevance to Judaism." (apologies for the grammatical mismatch between the number in the subject and the verb)
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
That is a website with material that says "The curriculum is designed especially for Christians who desire to discover the Jewish background and culture of their faith. "

The story referred to there is nothing new. You can find a discussion of it in the Artscroll edition of Lamentations, or read more about it and the value of that story compared to the other talmudic statements here

and here
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Sure, I'll give it a go: Jesus played the parts of both the goat and the scapegoat as in Leviticus 16.

"29 The next day John (the Baptist) saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"
--John 1:29
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I don't think it odd at all. In fact, that fact is an essential point that drives a lot of Jewish thought and instruction. Your particular opinion about things, and your Christian view is a good thing for you to have as a Chrsitian but it has no relevance to Judaism.
I think the problem here is dividing Jewish thought and Christian thought. It was Jewish thought that created the existence of a body through which the anointed one and his anointing (Christ) would bring back the original desire of God... a family that was His, represented in the original design found in Adam and Eve. As Jewish Peter penned,
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.
I think you're asking the wrong question. As the issue in not what WAS he, then, but what IS he to us, now. Because that's what matters.

And to understand what Christ is to us now, we need to recognize that what we're discussing is an ideal, or an ideology, not a person. The "person" is now just a character in a story that represents an important ideal or set of ideals to a huge number of people. And once we understand and accept this, I think we'll also see Jesus the Christ as a messenger, mainly. But delivering that message through both words and deeds, and accompanied by a promise.

That message being that the divine spirit of God exists within each of us, and that is the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity. And that if we will allow ourselves to become the embodiment of that spirit within, it will heal us and save us from ourselves. And in doing so, heal and save the whole world (from us).
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I think the problem here is dividing Jewish thought and Christian thought. It was Jewish thought that created the existence of a body through which the anointed one and his anointing (Christ) would bring back the original desire of God... a family that was His, represented in the original design found in Adam and Eve. As Jewish Peter penned,
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
It was Christian thought that drove Charles Manson. Just saying that an author was Jewish, therefore his statements represent "Jewish thought" is fallacious.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It was Christian thought that drove Charles Manson. Just saying that an author was Jewish, therefore his statements represent "Jewish thought" is fallacious.
apples and oranges. It wasn't just Peter -- if the history of Acts is correct, Jewish priests also believed. Obviously Jewish forefathers don't agree with every jot and title--it was still derived from Jewish thought.
 
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