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Featured If an entity offered you as an atheist an after life after you lived, would that interest you

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ideogenous_mover, Dec 25, 2019.

  1. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur
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    Heck yeah. Really don’t understand the people who are all like “no thanks”.

    I don’t know what happens when we die but I’m pretty sure it’s nothing and that really sucks. I don’t want to cease to exist. So basically being given an option to continue existence is a no brainer to me.

    For those who are saying “well I believe in reincarnation or that our energy disperses or whatever”, so I’ll pass: here’s the thing— You don’t know for sure that your afterlife belief is correct. But you do know that there’s an offer of heaven on the table. I’d take the sure thing rather than clinging to a belief that may or may not be true.

    And lastly, to those hung up on eternal life, to be fair, the OP only said heaven. Eternal life— and your imagined pitfalls therein— are not necessarily required of a “heaven”.
     
  2. Scott C.

    Scott C. Just one guy

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    Can you conceive of an eternal existense that you would want, as a preference to lights out?
     
  3. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    And what do you call it?

    You seem to misunderstand, dark matter and dark energy are.

    Although it cannot be directly observed, dark matter can be observed indirectly,
    Read "Observational Evidence" here
    Dark matter - Wikipedia

    Dark energy is a hypothetical form of energy and oppose gravity.

    And can i ask, what has it to do with the thread?
     
  4. leov

    leov Well-Known Member

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    Nobody understands dark energy and matter, it is only calculated... We know 5% about 5%
    What proof can be recognized?
     
  5. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    So you didn't bother reading about the indirect observational evidence for dark matter?

    And i have already explained dark energy is hypothetical
     
  6. leov

    leov Well-Known Member

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    I posted that Wiki article about week ago. There is NO knowledge available.
     
  7. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    Not really. I could conceive being altered in such a way where eternal bliss without end wouldn't get boring and stagnant, but it wouldn't be me anymore. It'd be a cowish version of me.
     
  8. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur
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    Is this just lack of imagination? The question was “can you conceive of an eternal existence you want” but you chose only to answer about “eternal bliss without end”. Perhaps your preferred eternal existence requires change and, perhaps, suffering.
     
  9. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Not really, for a couple of reasons.

    First, utter unbelievability.

    Even when I was a youngster I assumed heaven to be a poetical narrative device. It is not truly possible for me to even pretend to believe in an eternal afterlife.

    Second, lack of ethical worth.

    The idea that some people would achieve some form of heaven or paradise is... frankly, it is just too weird. Presenting it as a reward is troublesome, in as much as it amounts to giving up on the pursuit of ethics in order to dedicate oneself instead to a simple contract of reward for obedience.

    I suppose that for those of a deontological persuation it can be the same thing... but deontological ethics are simply not very useful, nor very convincing or even defensable.

    To be actually promised a form of heaven in the general mold of Abrahamic expectations would baffle me to no end. I would have no idea of what would be happening or what it could possibly mean. And I most certainly would not trust claims attached to that.


    Beats me. I would like to believe that I would invest some effort into finding out who that entity would be and what reasons, if any, I would have to trust its truthfulness, discernment and criteria.

    Or maybe I would just wonder what the point of asking me would be. Is that heaven reached by moral achievement, or is it by giving some form of proper answer instead? Those are two entirely separate things, after all.

    Or maybe I would not care at all, since there would be no point. If there is some sort of entity offering heaven around, I would be reduced to wild guess about what, if anything, that would mean. If the offer is genuine, then it is for that entity to make up its mind on what should happen to me; I can't be expected to guess how to deal with it. And if the offer is not genuine, then there is no point to caring about it anyway. It would amount to something much like a guessing game in a weekend tv show. There is only so much attention to give such a thing.


    I wonder how I would come to conclude that I am dead yet conscious. It is anyone's guess, I suppose.

    No, I do not believe in reincarnation.
     
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  10. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Eternal hell is the very definition of unfair punishment.

    Anyone who goes through the trouble of threatening others with such a promise is automatically unworthy.
     
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  11. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Yes. And she would fit into it anyway.

    Such are the mysteries of faith!
     
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  12. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    I think eternal bliss is a quicker way towards stagnation, and I talk about it because it's the most popular afterlife special. But it would be achieved all the same in any sort of eternity. Eventually meaningful experiencewould be exhausted and I would want it to end. The only way to help it would be to make me no longer me. Either by removing memory after a time or by making me no longer care about new experience. Either way "I" would be lost.
     
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  13. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Science did not always understand electromagnetism.

    That did not make that divine will either.
     
  14. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Then you didn't understand the article

    Dark matter can be measured indirectly.
     
  15. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur
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    You don’t remember every experience from childhood now but you still consider yourself you.

    Personally, I like the idea of eternal reincarnation, with a period of reflection, memory, and relaxation in between each life. You could experience what it’s like to be an protozoan or a prince and everything in between. As life evolves and as humanity expands, the opportunities would be forever changing— at least until the heat death of the universe. I think it would take a very very long time to tire of this. And when you do, perhaps that’s nirvana, when you join the great universal mind/life force content to just Be.

    Regardless, I’d take the risk of eventual boredom — or even the eventual loss of “I”— for the exchange of millions of radical years, when the alternative is non-existence. At the end, we both lose ourselves, but I had a heck of a better ride than you.
     
  16. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    I like this very much! I think it is extremely clever.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I'd need a number of questions to be clarified first to allow me to understand what, precisely, was being offered:

    First, what's in it for whoever's making the offer? What does the offeror hope to gain by providing heaven?

    Second, is this the only offer (apart from death) or are there other models of afterlife to be considered?

    Third, what's the nature of one's existence in heaven? In particular are we still H sap sap, complete with evolved instincts, glands and hormones, senses, needs for air, water, food, shelter, friends and society, a mate, rank, offspring? If so, how are buildings, transport, local and regional government, health, water, sewerage, primary and secondary industry managed? What is the economic profile of heaven? Do they take Bitcoin?

    If not, what are we and why? Without bodily senses, how are we aware of our surroundings? Since it's the relationship between our biochemical brain and our biochemical hormones that make all the human emotions possible (love, hate, joy, fear, curiosity, ambition, desire, appetite, thirst, satisfaction and much more), what substitutes for them in the new regime? In other words, what if anything are we capable of experiencing, and how?

    And what about the STP (Sheer Tedium Problem) of living forever? As Woody Allen is said to have said, Eternity is very long, especially towards the end.

    Fourth, the blurb says heaven's an autarchy and wholly free of democratic principles. Is that correct? If not, what democratic rights do citizens of heaven have? Can God be voted out? Will change result?

    What rights of dissent, alternative lifestyles, freedom to choose and so on are available without sanction?

    Fifth, may either party cancel the deal? If so, how and under what conditions? If not, what distinguishes heaven from a prison?

    And that's not all, but it'll do for a start.
     
  18. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    I remember enough to know I don't want to do it again.

    Seriously though, there is diminishing returns on how much memory you can make so eternity would be a cyclical waste of time. Maybe that's why the goal of most religions with reincarnation is to stop it.
    Imo the aggregate consciousnesses, if you could call it such, wouldn't be you. You would have ended the moment you died. Some other not you thing would simply have your memories. We'd end up in the same place, I just wouldn't be some alien observer's most recent ride.
     
  19. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I think maybe that's sort of questioning the entity in a way that's too human. You, and many others, might automatically assume that it wants something from you, you leap to try to understand it in terms of reciprocity. Think for a moment on how you awoke to be here. This experience is also freely given to you, why shouldn't subsequent experiences be the same? It's merely asking if you want to keep doing this, and it shows you the door so that you can keep doing it

    Perhaps, maybe you could become an element or a feeling or a color

    As was discussed here earlier, some seemed to want an exit or escape clause. Which should be fine

    Not sure

    You know, I was thinking that the entity might not have all the answers to these questions ready for you, it might want you to pick a destiny right away. I don't know. Perhaps it figures that if you're too unsure what with all the living you've done already, then maybe you don't really want it.
     
  20. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, I think maybe the only way to achieve really deep learning might be to forget everything at times, and start completely anew. If you cannot forget, you only learn from but one foundation of perception. In gaining a new body and mind, the 'soul' enters a new station of education. And so maybe death is but the end of one tiny parcel in a great tapestry of one's existence, as it's but the middle of a very long life.
     
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