Idolatrous Catholics

[Ingledsva]

No, but the ancient religions like Judaism and Christianity are corrupted with ancient mythology. Christianity is corrupted by Greek and Roman mythology. Pagan religions are more accurately described as pre=Roman religions.

NO, they all come from "so-called" Pagan religions.

So what?!?!?! I do not believe the claims accurately reflect how the Roman Church describes Mary.

You can believe whatever you wish, - but the facts are on their sites.

How exactly does a sense of holiness in someone, - equate to Divinity?

It, of course, does not equate to Divinity, and never claimed it did. Your moving the goal posts and misrepresenting me.

LOL! NOT! YOU posted a quote saying so, in defense of your position.

"Mary becomes Mother of God: The year 431 A.D. was a momentous one in the history of the Queen of Heaven. That’s the year the church fathers, meeting in Ephesus in modern day Turkey, officially declared that Mary is Theotokos, literally, in Greek, the one who gave birth to God. More commonly her title is paraphrased as Mother of God. This was an important political step, as it clarified for the theologians that Jesus was both God and man. Perhaps just as importantly, however, it pacified the people, who were demanding that Mary be acknowledged as a divinity.

Technically, the church denied Mary as divine, as a Goddess, but in practical terms, it conveyed a sense of holiness which made her a viable rival to that other popular Roman/Greek/Egyptian hybrid Goddess of the time, represented variously as Diana, Cybele, and Isis."

They are not always acting in the same place at the same time as described in the New Testament. God the Father is in Heaven, God the Son was on earth and God the Holy Spirit was somewhere in between.

I showed you a verse having all three separate and acting at the same time.

For instance?!?!? They are described as three distinct beings.
Well ah . . . I do not believe there is a Trinity of any kind, but the Roman Church describes the Trinity as Tritheism.

Jesus is a just a special HUMAN messiah, as he claimed, and NOT part of a trinity God? The "spirit" of God is just God's power in action? Leaving God (where he was the whole time) to speak from Heaven as he sends /power/blessings down to Messiah Jesus?

Jesus and Mary are described as very special humans, but they are also described as Gods.

As shown - no they are NOT. It specifically says Mary is not a Goddess.

I do not describe God as one Trinity God. and I describe God as God.

You brought it up.

"We also disagree that the Trinity, is Tritheism, therefore our disagreement continues."

in Roman Church mythology it would, but to me as a Baha'i it makes no sense.

So why bring it up?

And it obviously isn't only the "Roman Church."

*

 

[shunyadragon]

NO, they all come from "so-called" Pagan religions.

"so called?" I do not agree.

You can believe whatever you wish, - but the facts are on their sites.

I believe the facts describe Mary as a Goddess.

LOL! NOT! YOU posted a quote saying so, in defense of your position.

"Mary becomes Mother of God: The year 431 A.D. was a momentous one in the history of the Queen of Heaven. That’s the year the church fathers, meeting in Ephesus in modern day Turkey, officially declared that Mary is Theotokos, literally, in Greek, the one who gave birth to God. More commonly her title is paraphrased as Mother of God. This was an important political step, as it clarified for the theologians that Jesus was both God and man. Perhaps just as importantly, however, it pacified the people, who were demanding that Mary be acknowledged as a divinity.

Technically, the church denied Mary as divine, as a Goddess, but in practical terms, it conveyed a sense of holiness which made her a viable rival to that other popular Roman/Greek/Egyptian hybrid Goddess of the time, represented variously as Diana, Cybele, and Isis."

I showed you a verse having all three separate and acting at the same time.

Not always the case, sometimes the same time, function different.

As shown - no they are NOT. It specifically says Mary is not a Goddess.

Specifically?!? Splitting frog hairs. They describe Maray as a Goddess.

You brought it up.

"We also disagree that the Trinity, is Tritheism, therefore our disagreement continues."

No problem, because it is a related problem as to how the Roman Church describes their Gods.



So why bring it up?

And it obviously isn't only the "Roman Church."

*[/QUOTE]

 

[metis]

Here:

In the Catholic Church, the veneration of Mary, mother of Jesus, encompasses various Marian devotions which include prayer, pious acts, visual arts, poetry, and music devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary...

Belief in the incarnation of God the Son through Mary is the basis for calling her the Mother of God, which was declared a dogma at the Council of Ephesus in 431. At the Second Vatican Council and in Pope John Paul II's encyclical Redemptoris Mater, she is spoken of also as Mother of the Church...

Veneration for Mary is based on the reference in the Gospel of Luke to Mary as the selected handmaid of the Lord who is greeted and praised by both Elizabeth and the angel Gabriel. God's work is further illuminated in the Marian dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, and are, in the Roman Catholic view, part of the apostolic tradition and divine revelation. Catholics distinguish veneration from worship... -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneration_of_Mary_in_the_Catholic_Church

Please note the word "veneration".

 

[shunyadragon]

Here:

In the Catholic Church, the veneration of Mary, mother of Jesus, encompasses various Marian devotions which include prayer, pious acts, visual arts, poetry, and music devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary...

Belief in the incarnation of God the Son through Mary is the basis for calling her the Mother of God, which was declared a dogma at the Council of Ephesus in 431. At the Second Vatican Council and in Pope John Paul II's encyclical Redemptoris Mater, she is spoken of also as Mother of the Church...

Veneration for Mary is based on the reference in the Gospel of Luke to Mary as the selected handmaid of the Lord who is greeted and praised by both Elizabeth and the angel Gabriel. God's work is further illuminated in the Marian dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, and are, in the Roman Catholic view, part of the apostolic tradition and divine revelation. Catholics distinguish veneration from worship... -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneration_of_Mary_in_the_Catholic_Church

Please note the word "veneration".

No problem, but simply the use of the word "veneration" does not resolve the reality of how the Roman Church describes Mary, and the reality of how Mary is "worshiped" worldwide. I was raised in the Roman Church in Latin America, and observed this first hand. The contradiction remains regardless of repeated emphasis of subtle interpretation and wording to side step the reality of the nature of Mary as described by the church, and believed by the devoted believers.

Statues and images of Mary directly copy including the symbolism of Roman Goddesses.

 

[metis]

No problem, but simply the use of the word "veneration" does not resolve the reality of how the Roman Church describes Mary, and the reality of how Mary is "worshiped" worldwide.

Prayer to Mary are viewed as being prayer through Mary, and that's a very important distinction. IOW, Mary is not a "goddess" simply because without Jesus as being involved in the Trinity she is nothing special. The "Mother of God" reference is because of her giving birth to Jesus. She is not viewed as being any kind of stand-alone goddess.

There's also the issue of "the communion of saints", the implication of which is that there really is no impermeable wall of separation between the living a dead "saints". The implication of this approach is that the living can pray for the dead and the dead can pray for the living.

BTW, the Orthodox Church takes pretty much the same view as I posted with a link a while back on this thread.

Statues and images of Mary directly copy including the symbolism of Roman Goddesses.

That's your interpretation, but that's playing the "guilt by association" card.

 

[shunyadragon]

Prayer to Mary are viewed as being prayer through Mary, and that's a very important distinction. IOW, Mary is not a "goddess" simply because without Jesus as being involved in the Trinity she is nothing special. The "Mother of God" reference is because of her giving birth to Jesus. She is not viewed as being any kind of stand-alone goddess.

There's also the issue of "the communion of saints", the implication of which is that there really is no impermeable wall of separation between the living a dead "saints". The implication of this approach is that the living can pray for the dead and the dead can pray for the living.

We will have to agree to disagree. No Mary without Jesus?!?!?! There is no Jesus without Mary. Jesus is not a stand alone God either! The whole description of Mary is far above any concept of Sainthood. She is born without sin, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven, which at minimum describes here as a human becoming a Goddess.

BTW, the Orthodox Church takes pretty much the same view as I posted with a link a while back on this thread.

Their over emphasis of icons and the concepts describing Mary share the same problem.

[

That's your interpretation, but that's playing the "guilt by association" card.

Not guilt by association, but a literally the same images and symbols associated with the statues, icons and pictures.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If the grace of God can work through a Brazen snake, to save the Israelites, the grace of God can work through a statue or a crucifix.

So the Catholic Church regard statues as being conduits of God's power so it actually is more than just a ceramic or stone statue?

That would explain as to why people go crazy around them, whenever alleged tears fall or blood drips from the eyes.

 

[shunyadragon]

So the Catholic Church regard statues as being conduits of God's power so it actually is more than just a ceramic or stone statue?

That would explain as to why people go crazy around them, whenever alleged tears fall or blood drips from the eyes.

Any thing remotely regarded as conduits concerning statues pictures, and icons becomes a problem of idolatry,

 

[metis]

No Mary without Jesus?!?!?!

I didn't say that.

She is born without sin, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven, which at minimum describes here as a human becoming a Goddess.

IYO.

Their over emphasis of icons and the concepts describing Mary share the same problem.

That's only a "problem" if one allows it to be a problem. I'm neither a Catholic nor a Christian, and it ain't a problem for me.

Not guilt by association, but a literally the same images and symbols associated with the statues, icons and pictures.

Are all "images and symbols associated with statues, icons, and pictures" intrinsically a problem? Also, see above.

If one doesn't like what they hear and see in a Catholic church, then simply don't go, but I would suggest telling others what they supposedly should or should not have or do is rather presumptuous, imo. You don't see me telling the Baha'i what they should or should not do or what they should or should not have in their temples.

IOW, let me recommend that you do your thing and let the Catholics do their thing.

 

[shunyadragon]

I didn't say that.

IYO.

That's only a "problem" if one allows it to be a problem. I'm neither a Catholic nor a Christian, and it ain't a problem for me.

Are all "images and symbols associated with statues, icons, and pictures" intrinsically a problem? Also, see above.

If one doesn't like what they hear and see in a Catholic church, then simply don't go, but I would suggest telling others what they supposedly should or should not have or do is rather presumptuous, imo. You don't see me telling the Baha'i what they should or should not do or what they should or should not have in their temples.

IOW, let me recommend that you do your thing and let the Catholics do their thing.

Go back to the intent of the thread. It is open to different views without you aggressively trying to shut others down who believe differently. There is actual basis for my view which I have cited.

I would advise you to present your case in a level headed manner and not emotionally,

 

[metis]

Go back to the intent of the thread. It is open to different views without you aggressively trying to shut others down who believe differently. There is actual basis for my view which I have cited.

I would advise you to present your case in a level headed manner and not emotionally,

I was "level-headed" when I wrote it, and I would suggest that what I wrote should be considered.

Secondly, I was not trying to "shut others down", which would be a logical impossibility anyway.

Finally, what all too many don't seem to get is that religious beliefs are entirely subjective, not objective. A statue is not intrinsically evil, thus only being "evil" if we make it as such. Even "worshiping Mary", if done, is not intrinsically evil, thus being "evil" only if one makes it as such.

I hope later this morning to start a thread that I think I'll entitle "Let's Get Real", and maybe you can chime in on that.

Sorry if I came off aggressive.

 

[Cherub786]

Can the deceased hear? An answer in the affirmative is obviously a metaphysical claim. I believe that the deceased cannot hear, therefore, to call upon the deceased whether directly to answer one's invocation or as a means of intercession is no different then an idol-worshiper invoking his lifeless, inanimate idol carved from wood, stone or metal. One idol-worshiper is idolizing decayed bones of a deceased woman, and another is idolizing a carved wooden, stone, or metallic figurine.

 

[shunyadragon]

I was "level-headed" when I wrote it, and I would suggest that what I wrote should be considered.

Secondly, I was not trying to "shut others down", which would be a logical impossibility anyway.

Finally, what all too many don't seem to get is that religious beliefs are entirely subjective, not objective. A statue is not intrinsically evil, thus only being "evil" if we make it as such. Even "worshiping Mary", if done, is not intrinsically evil, thus being "evil" only if one makes it as such.

I hope later this morning to start a thread that I think I'll entitle "Let's Get Real", and maybe you can chime in on that.

Sorry if I came off aggressive.

Claiming religious beliefs are entirely subjective is trying to raise the fog index beyond the level of discussion, and everybody is right regardless.

I can give you a comparative example of a fairly objective view of different religions, their scripture, dogma and doctrine of belief. I have spent many years (fifty+) studying different religions. I can easily consider Judaism, Islam and the Baha'i Faith as Monotheistic without question. Religions like Christianity {with the exception of a few churches that reject the Trinity, and the Divinity, or special veneration, of Mary) failed in their claim that they are Monotheistic.

 

[metis]

I can give you a comparative example of a fairly objective view of different religions, their scripture, dogma and doctrine of belief. I have spent many years (fifty+) studying different religions. I can easily consider Judaism, Islam and the Baha'i Faith as Monotheistic without question. Religions like Christianity {with the exception of a few churches that reject the Trinity, and the Divinity, or special veneration, of Mary) failed in their claim that they are Monotheistic.

I just finished starting the thread I mentioned ("Let's Get Real"), so I hope to see ya over there.

 

[Spiderman]

Here:

In the Catholic Church, the veneration of Mary, mother of Jesus, encompasses various Marian devotions which include prayer, pious acts, visual arts, poetry, and music devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary...

Belief in the incarnation of God the Son through Mary is the basis for calling her the Mother of God, which was declared a dogma at the Council of Ephesus in 431. At the Second Vatican Council and in Pope John Paul II's encyclical Redemptoris Mater, she is spoken of also as Mother of the Church...

Veneration for Mary is based on the reference in the Gospel of Luke to Mary as the selected handmaid of the Lord who is greeted and praised by both Elizabeth and the angel Gabriel. God's work is further illuminated in the Marian dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, and are, in the Roman Catholic view, part of the apostolic tradition and divine revelation. Catholics distinguish veneration from worship... -- Veneration of Mary in the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

Please note the word "veneration".

I love your posts metis...I can't believe so many gems in defense of Catholicism would come from a Jew . It warms my heart