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Idolatrous Catholics

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I'd like to debate Christians on whether or not Catholics are idolaters. If you are a Christian who believes Catholics are idolaters, please debate me on that.

It's true I pray to Mother Mary, and I find the rosary and her intercession , maternal nurturing, and friendship to be very healing.... But the Catholic Church forbids people to give the Adoration that belongs to God, to anything less than God.

The catechism forbids idolatry.

I don't see it as idolatrous for me to ask Mother Mary for help, any more than it is idolatrous to seek a doctor for help... Neglecting the rosary for me, and saying I only need God Alone, is like a diabetic neglecting their insulin , because insulin is not God.

In the Old Testament, the Israelites had to turn to a Graven serpent for healing. If the Israelites all decided, we don't need this Brazen serpent, we only need God, they would have died.

Mother Mary, like the Brazen serpent, is less than God, but someone like the Ark of the Covenant, where God dwells, and God heals me through. The Catholic Church calls Mary the Ark of the New Covenant, Dwelling Place of God.

Paul said, it is no longer I who live but Christ, Mary can say the same thing.

I tried to give up Marian devotion and the rosary, and the consequences were disastrous... I receive far more Grace from God when I'm praying the rosary than any other devotion. It's kind of embarrassing to say that, cuz I cannot explain why a devotion so simple would be so incredibly important, but nothing could be more true. It doesn't make sense to me, but I've experienced the truth behind that statement.

I needed a mother, so Christ gave me his mother, and I cannot thank him enough. Now show me how that is idolatry. I don't consider her a deity or equal to God.

Keep in mind, that how God does not work at one time in history, he later will work at another time in history.

God is not bound by any rules. And God can make exceptions to any rule. God said Thou shalt not make a Graven image, and later commanded his people to make graven images. God said Thou shalt not murder, and then ordered the Israelites to kill women, children, and babies who are without sin. Sounds like murder to me. God can do as he pleases.

God chooses to give me much grace through the Rosary. Many Christians consider this Pagan and satanic. Please do explain that premise if you see eye-to-eye with it. Thanks
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Despite going to mass and praying daily rosary, I'm really not Catholic, because I'm not one to defend all the dogma or embrace it... It seems Dogma gets in the way of relationship. If you reject Catholic dogma, I could care less... It's when you start calling the Catholic Church the whore of Babylon, bride of Satan, and religion of the Antichrist, that I get defensive.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'd like to debate Christians on whether or not Catholics are idolaters. If you are a Christian who believes Catholics are idolaters, please debate me on that.

It's true I pray to Mother Mary, and I find the rosary and her intercession , maternal nurturing, and friendship to be very healing.... But the Catholic Church forbids people to give the Adoration that belongs to God, to anything less than God.

The catechism forbids idolatry.

I don't see it as idolatrous for me to ask Mother Mary for help, any more than it is idolatrous to seek a doctor for help... Neglecting the rosary for me, and saying I only need God Alone, is like a diabetic neglecting their insulin , because insulin is not God.

In the Old Testament, the Israelites had to turn to a Graven serpent for healing. If the Israelites all decided, we don't need this Brazen serpent, we only need God, they would have died.

Mother Mary, like the Brazen serpent, is less than God, but someone like the Ark of the Covenant, where God dwells, and God heals me through. The Catholic Church calls Mary the Ark of the New Covenant, Dwelling Place of God.

The bold above is the beginning of the problem of the Roman Church defining Mary as a Goddess.

I do not consider the Roman Church the whore of Babylon, bride of Satan, and religion of the Antichrist.

Paul said, it is no longer I who live but Christ, Mary can say the same thing.

Comparing Paul to how the Roman Church describes Mary does not work.

I tried to give up Marian devotion and the rosary, and the consequences were disastrous... I receive far more Grace from God when I'm praying the rosary than any other devotion. It's kind of embarrassing to say that, cuz I cannot explain why a devotion so simple would be so incredibly important, but nothing could be more true. It doesn't make sense to me, but I've experienced the truth behind that statement.

I needed a mother, so Christ gave me his mother, and I cannot thank him enough. Now show me how that is idolatry. I don't consider her a deity or equal to God.

Sounds like the equivalent to a dependency or an addiction.

Keep in mind, that how God does not work at one time in history, he later will work at another time in history.

God is not bound by any rules. And God can make exceptions to any rule. God said Thou shalt not make a Graven image, and later commanded his people to make graven images. God said Thou shalt not murder, and then ordered the Israelites to kill women, children, and babies who are without sin. Sounds like murder to me. God can do as he pleases.

God chooses to give me much grace through the Rosary. Many Christians consider this Pagan and satanic. Please do explain that premise if you see eye-to-eye with it. Thanks

Yes, God does how God pleases, but I do not believe the Roman Church defines how God does how God pleases.

I do not think you are being honest about how the Roman Church considers idolatry, and actually how idolatry is defined and considered outside the Roman Church. The Roman Church cannot live in a bubble and define and jerrymander things to suit self-definition. I consider it Roman Pagan influence in Christianity.

As far as Mary. it is not a matter of whether you should 'ask Mother Mary for help' as maybe Saint Francis, but how Mary Mother of God and the wife of God the Father is defined in the Roman Church. She is defined as Goddess no matter which way you wish to soft sell the role of Mary in the Roman Church, and the world wide worship of the statues and figures of Mary is a clear reference to the problem.

The overwhelming use of statues and pictures of God, Jesus Christ in Mary results in the worship of all of the above separately and collectively is idolatry by any reasonable definition. The Tritheism of the Trinity is equally problematic no matter how you try and explain it away,
 
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Spiderman

Veteran Member
The bold above is the beginning of the problem of the Roman Church defining Mary as a Goddess.

I do not consider the Roman Church the whore of Babylon, bride of Satan, and religion of the Antichrist.



Comparing Paul to how the Roman Church describes Mary does not work.



Sounds like the equivalent to a dependency or an addiction.



Yes, God does how God pleases, but I do not believe the Roman Church defines how God does how God pleases.

I do not think you are being honest about how the Roman Church considers idolatry, and actually how idolatry is defined and considered outside the Roman Church. The Roman Church cannot live in a bubble and define and jerrymander things to suit self-definition. I consider it Roman Pagan influence in Christianity.

As far as Mary. it is not a matter of whether you should 'ask Mother Mary for help' as maybe Saint Francis, but how Mary Mother of God and the wife of God the Father is defined in the Roman Church. She is defined as Goddess no matter which way you wish to soft sell the role of Mary in the Roman Church, and the world wide worship of the statues and figures of Mary is a clear reference to the problem.

The overwhelming use of statues and pictures of God, Jesus Christ in Mary results in the worship of all of the above separately and collectively is idolatry by any reasonable definition. The Tritheism of the Trinity is equally problematic no matter how you try and explain it away,
Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry.
Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The bold above is the beginning of the problem of the Roman Church defining Mary as a Goddess.

I do not consider the Roman Church the whore of Babylon, bride of Satan, and religion of the Antichrist.



Comparing Paul to how the Roman Church describes Mary does not work.



Sounds like the equivalent to a dependency or an addiction.



Yes, God does how God pleases, but I do not believe the Roman Church defines how God does how God pleases.

I do not think you are being honest about how the Roman Church considers idolatry, and actually how idolatry is defined and considered outside the Roman Church. The Roman Church cannot live in a bubble and define and jerrymander things to suit self-definition. I consider it Roman Pagan influence in Christianity.

As far as Mary. it is not a matter of whether you should 'ask Mother Mary for help' as maybe Saint Francis, but how Mary Mother of God and the wife of God the Father is defined in the Roman Church. She is defined as Goddess no matter which way you wish to soft sell the role of Mary in the Roman Church, and the world wide worship of the statues and figures of Mary is a clear reference to the problem.

The overwhelming use of statues and pictures of God, Jesus Christ in Mary results in the worship of all of the above separately and collectively is idolatry by any reasonable definition. The Tritheism of the Trinity is equally problematic no matter how you try and explain it away,
Mary and Mary might be part of the story. Just a guess. I a nature guy anyway what do I know. I like john Muir.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry.
Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

I am not considering any Satan idols here, but the matter of fact Roman Church idols.

I fully understand how the Roman Church self-defines idolatry to suit their own beliefs, because I was raised in the Roman Church. Cut and paste from the Catechism does not respond to the points I made. What you have failed to respond to is how the Roman Church defines Mary Mother of God, and the reality of the believers view toward worshiping Mary.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I fully understand how the Roman Church self=defines idolatry to suit their own beliefs, because I was raised in the Roman Church. Cut and paste from the Catechism does not respond to the points I made. What you have failed to respond to is how the Roman Church defines Mary Mother of God, and the reality of the believers view toward worshiping Mary.
The Catholic Church defines Mary as Mother of God, because the Catholic Church believes that God became incarnate in Mary's womb, and that God created his own mother.

The first miracle of Christ was turning water into wine. It was a miracle he did not want to work. he worked the miracle reluctantly in obedience to his mother. the church teaches that God obeys Mary, but that Mary has been perfected to the degree that she doesn't ask what is not God's will.

However, I believe that just as Moses got God to change his mind, Mary can get God to change his mind as well.

The church does not teach that we can give the worship that belongs to God to Mary.

The church does not teach that Mary is a goddess. The church does not teach that Mary is a deity.

The church condemns idolatry
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Catholic Church defines Mary as Mother of God, because the Catholic Church believes that God became incarnate in Mary's womb, and that God created his own mother.

The first miracle of Christ was turning water into wine. It was a miracle he did not want to work. he worked the miracle reluctantly in obedience to his mother. the church teaches that God obeys Mary, but that Mary has been perfected to the degree that she doesn't ask what is not God's will.

However, I believe that just as Moses got God to change his mind, Mary can get God to change his mind as well.

The church does not teach that we can give the worship that belongs to God to Mary.

The church does not teach that Mary is a goddess. The church does not teach that Mary is a deity.

The church condemns idolatry

What the Roman Church says it teaches does not translate to reality. The station of Mary Queen of Heaven, wife of God the Father. and Mother of God does define Mary as a Goddess.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
What the Roman Church says it teaches does not translate to reality. The station of Mary Queen of Heaven, wife of God the Father. and Mother of God does define Mary as a Goddess.
The church still teaches that she is a creature... God's masterpiece, but still a creature
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I like to go to an intercessor because humans have been known to be more merciful than God and can restrain God's wrath. Moses shows this to be true
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
960 The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all the Eucharist, by which "the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about" (LG 3).

961 The term "communion of saints" refers also to the communion of "holy persons" (sancti) in Christ who "died for all," so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.

962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Communion of Saints
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The church still teaches that she is a creature... God's masterpiece, but still a creature
Not convincing, because no where is Mary described as a creature.

She is described as the Mother of God, the Queen of Heaven (wife of God the Father) and as you mentioned 'Mary the Ark of the New Covenant, Dwelling Place of God.'
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That's not stated or accepted anywhere. In fact, in my 60 years, half of that being Catholic and Orthodox, this is the first time I'm seeing it.

Mary is the Queen of Heaven, and God the Father is the King of Heaven

Mormons (LDS) also believe that Mary is the wife of God.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
The commandment in the Bible says that people should not MAKE any graven image. You do not have to worship it or pray to it to be braking the commandment. Catholics say they do not worship the statues of the saints but just having statues is a sin.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
If one believes in the Trinity, and if one believes Mary gave birth to Jesus, then what's the issue?

Also, "Theotokos (Greek Θεοτόκος Greek pronunciation: [θeoˈtokos][1]) is a title of Mary, mother of God, used especially in Eastern Christianity. The usual Latin translations, Dei Genetrix or Deipara (approximately "parent (fem.) of God"), are translated as "Mother of God" or "God-bearer"... -- Theotokos - Wikipedia

There are also numerous "Mother of God" Orthodox churches.
 
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