Ideas for responding to defamation campaigns against Muslims

[Jim]

Before I discuss those other issues I want to say that I think that arguing with people about their misinformation, prejudices and delusions will only ever be derailed into a train wreck of feuding between factions, mostly reinforcing prejudices and animosities, without doing anything to help solve the problems.

 

[Jim]

Another thought, before I discuss those other issues:

When people want to defend Islam, or help reform it, it might be better for them to learn more about the full context of the Quran, which includes the lives and words of its saints, its best teachers and its poets.

 

[oldbadger]

A general problem with Bahais. They accept and reject Mohammad in the same breath. Well, not just Islam, but all other major religions as well.

Yes.
This thread was titled ........
'Ideas for responding to defamation campaigns against Muslims'
......... but so far the majority of paragraphs have criticised Islam.

The OP's second paragraph is a typical example.

 

[loverofhumanity]

A general problem with Bahais. They accept and reject Mohammad in the same breath. Well, not just Islam, but all other major religions as well.

The Baha’i Faith teaches Muhammad is a Manifestation of God equal to Baha’u’llah and all the other major religions Founders.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Through Taliban, ISIS and deployment of a medieval mindset against women in general, I think islamic society effectively disempowered its women who could have played a balancing role in Islam and made it truly peaceful and harmonious as it was originally designed to be.

I think Islam must be exposed to scriptures and teachings of other monotheistic religions like the Prajapita Brahmakumaris, Jehovah's Witnesses , Bahaism and Sikhism so that it will learn to understand and appreciate other monotheistic points of view.

For example, the Prajapita Brahmakumaris is the only spiritual organisation in the world led, administered and taught by women.They are a monotheistic sect based in India which worships God as an incorporeal point of light.

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris have teaching centers in almost every country in the world where they teach their religious philosophy and meditation techniques free of cost. They have won seven U.N. peace awards for their efforts in promoting global peace and harmony.

The success of the Prajapita Brahmakumaris prove hollow and false the theme of disempowered women in taliban, isis and fundamentalist versions of Islam, and shows that empowered women are capable on their own of teaching religion and spirituality in society.

Hello. I came across their website I think one day and I’d like to read more about them as I think that they’re awesome. Do you know of any links to their websites as I searched but didn’t seem to find them?

 

[Jim]

Some issues that I see in considering how to respond to anti-Muslim propaganda masquerading as criticism of Islam;
- How to respond to harmful behavior in Internet discussions.
- How to respond to misinformation.
- How to help reduce and counteract the long term psychological damage that can happen to people when they are targets of popular stereotypes and prejudices.
- How to help free people from their prejudices and delusions.

I’ve posted some ideas about responding to harmful behavior in Internal discussions. Now I want to discuss how to help reduce and counteract the long term psycholgical damage that can happen to people when they are targets of popular stereotypes and prejudices. The most and worst damage might be from the targets internalizing the stereotypes, and that might be induced more by people with who look like they have the most friendly intentions towards them than by people who are openly prejudiced against them. The stereotypes permeate everything that people say and do, without anyone being aware of what is happening. Even stereotypes that seem complimentary can add to the damage.

One way that I’ve seen for people to grow out of that is by spending time with some of the targets of the stereotyping in their home environment, learning to value their interests, capacities and qualities. If that isn’t possible offline, a person can always find some place to do it online. Blogs might be better than forums. Reading stories by and for some of the targets of the stereotyping might help also.

 

[firedragon]

First I want to say a few things in defense of people raising alarms about Islam. I agree with some of what is being said in those campaigns. I think that sometimes people believe in the Quran as being from God in a way that is unique to Islam and which facilitates recruiting people for crimes against humanity. I think that people campaigning against Islam are mostly not aware of the anti-Muslim subliminal messages that are embedded in the “criticism of Islam” propaganda that they are circulating. I think that calling Islam a “religion of peace,” allegations of racism, and exposing the fallacies only add fuel to the fire, without doing anything to help reduce or counteract defamation campaigns against Muslims.

A few months ago I went searching in the Quran, looking for passages promoting good character and conduct, and page after page, all I saw was incitations to violence against unbelievers. Even with a search engine for searching in the Quran, I couldn’t find anything promoting good character and conduct like what I was looking for.

What I think people need to understand is how propaganda masquerading as “criticism of Islam” works as a way of stigmatizing all Muslims, without doing anything to help reduce or counteract the danger from Islam. In fact, I think that anti-Muslim propaganda masquerading as “criticism of Islam” actually facilitates recruiting people in Europe and North America for crimes against humanity in the name of Islam.

I’ll explain that later, in another post.

Just out of curiosity, can you give me one example of such a verse where you insinuated "violence against unbelievers"?

If you truly went in search inside the Quran you have read through the book. So then you would have read the book. And you being an honest explorer by the way you communicate would have definitely not made a statement like this.

Yet, I will await your response. And I hope I do not have to expect rhetoric like "there are many" or "there are hundreds". One verse and let's see where its from and if you truly read the book.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

First I want to say a few things in defense of people raising alarms about Islam. I agree with some of what is being said in those campaigns. I think that sometimes people believe in the Quran as being from God in a way that is unique to Islam and which facilitates recruiting people for crimes against humanity. I think that people campaigning against Islam are mostly not aware of the anti-Muslim subliminal messages that are embedded in the “criticism of Islam” propaganda that they are circulating. I think that calling Islam a “religion of peace,” allegations of racism, and exposing the fallacies only add fuel to the fire, without doing anything to help reduce or counteract defamation campaigns against Muslims.

A few months ago I went searching in the Quran, looking for passages promoting good character and conduct, and page after page, all I saw was incitations to violence against unbelievers. Even with a search engine for searching in the Quran, I couldn’t find anything promoting good character and conduct like what I was looking for.

What I think people need to understand is how propaganda masquerading as “criticism of Islam” works as a way of stigmatizing all Muslims, without doing anything to help reduce or counteract the danger from Islam. In fact, I think that anti-Muslim propaganda masquerading as “criticism of Islam” actually facilitates recruiting people in Europe and North America for crimes against humanity in the name of Islam.

I’ll explain that later, in another post.

Jim. If you analyse, you would find that in high-end apologetic circles it is a very well discussed and organised industry.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Perhaps there are basic steps that could make it more likely to have a constructive discussion about Islam.

1/ Be on friendly terms with Muslims. Often knowing Muslims and having positive associations with them is the best starting place.

2/ A genuine desire for friendly relationships with Muslims as far as practical.

3/ Learn as much about Islam from first hand experience. Go to a mosque. Make use of occasions to learn about Islam by talking with Muslims.

4/ Learn about world history and the positive contributions Islam has made to civilisation.

5/ Take the time to read and study the Quran.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but Islam itself is not an institution, nor has there ever been any central 'orthodoxy', ..

You sound like you're trying to make out that Muslims are forced against their will to follow a religion they don't approve of, when clearly this is the opposite of the case.

Islam does not have a central institution, but it has the dictatorship of a Central 'orthodoxy', the dictatorship of an idea - Oneness of Allah and the final messengership of Mohammad. It is something like Communism. No one dare refute that, in some countries for the fear of death.

They have no will, their will is under an iron hand, that of Quran, Mohammad, society, clerics, parents, (and in some countries, the law) - all of them well-indoctrinated and properly brain-washed, right from their childhood.

 

[Jim]

Just out of curiosity, can you give me one example of such a verse where you insinuated "violence against unbelievers"?

I don’t think that it’s actually saying that. I was describing how it looked and felt to me.

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

but it has the dictatorship of a Central 'orthodoxy'

No it doesn't. As I already said in the post you're replying to. Sunnism is not orthodoxy, it is merely demographic. There is Sunni, Shi'ite and Abadi. Sunni and Shi'i both have their own inner traditions with differing views in every area of practice and interpretation, except for the fundamental doctrines.
There has never been any "orthodoxy" nor can the term "Orthodoxy" truly apply to any religion except Christianity (even with Judaism it's an adopted term).

Oneness of Allah and the final messengership of Mohammad.

That is doctrine, yes. So?

It is something like Communism. No one dare refute that, in some countries for the fear of death.

Nonsense. Also with the "it", seriously?

They have no will, their will is under an iron hand, that of Quran, Mohammad, society, clerics, parents, (and in some countries, the law) - all of them well-indoctrinated and properly brain-washed, right from their childhood.

This, what you are typing, is not discussion or debate, it is merely proselytizing your beliefs (bowtied with the term "indoctrinated") against Islam. Mightily ironic.

 

[Jim]

Again, here’s an idea for responding to harmful behavior in Internet discussions, including what might happen in this thread:

 

[danieldemol]

No it doesn't. As I already said in the post you're replying to. Sunnism is not orthodoxy, it is merely demographic. There is Sunni, Shi'ite and Abadi. Sunni and Shi'i both have their own inner traditions with differing views in every area of practice and interpretation, except for the fundamental doctrines.
There has never been any "orthodoxy" nor can the term "Orthodoxy" truly apply to any religion except Christianity (even with Judaism it's an adopted term).



That is doctrine, yes. So?



Nonsense. Also with the "it", seriously?



This, what you are typing, is not discussion or debate, it is merely proselytizing your beliefs (bowtied with the term "indoctrinated") against Islam. Mightily ironic.

“Fundamental doctrines” is just another word for orthodoxy. That the sects of Islam have their own conflicting orthodoxies and that some sects are more or less orthodox is hardly news, but this doesn’t mean there is no such thing as orthodoxy in all Islam.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

“Fundamental doctrines” is just another word for orthodoxy. That the sects of Islam have their own conflicting orthodoxies and that some sects are more or less orthodox is hardly news, but this doesn’t mean there is no such thing as orthodoxy in all Islam.

The thing is not that there is orthodoxy. We all have that, it is how we regard orthodoxy in regards to other humans. I am orthodox about my own dogma, but I accept that other people as themselves do it differently than me. Where as there is another version - my dogma is the correct dogma for all humans.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[firedragon]

I don’t think that it’s actually saying that. I was describing how it looked and felt to me.

I got that. But I'm curious. So if you could, quench my thirst. Give me a reference.

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

This:

“Fundamental doctrines” is just another word for orthodoxy.

And this:

That the sects of Islam have their own conflicting orthodoxies

Are both inherent contradictions, you are intentionally not making sense.

Doctrine and orthodoxy are as related as saying that because cars have four wheels that all cars are the same. This is fallacious thinking, and perhaps a misunderstanding of the meaning of these words.

By "fundamental doctrines" I mean, the doctrines that define Islam as a whole (many of which are also inclusively Abrahamic traits).

Orthodoxy is a kind of singularity of interpretation, perspective, practice, implementation etc - this is not speaking of some general banner-doctrines (One God, we believe in this prophet, be kind to people, et al) either. Orthodoxy is an entire socio-philosophical praxis which sets up distinct norms of correct from false which is held within a large frame work.
Look at Sunnism, there are four Madhhabs who disagree on these things, look at Shi'ism between Ithna Asharis and Ismailis there is a very diverse range of thought, practice, interpretation, philosophy, metaphysics and everything. Then also compare contemporary mainstream trends to classical Islamic trends, they are indiscernible. Of which is very blatantly obvious to anyone who has studied Islam that it is a nonexistent thing in Islam, there is no "orthodoxy". There is only majority and minority demographics. It feels silly to even have to spell this out but look at me having to do it, lol.

 

[firedragon]

“Fundamental doctrines” is just another word for orthodoxy. That the sects of Islam have their own conflicting orthodoxies and that some sects are more or less orthodox is hardly news, but this doesn’t mean there is no such thing as orthodoxy in all Islam.

There is no such thing as orthodox in anything if you dont base your scholarship on the "Majority". Thats to an outsider.

For an insider, vis a vis a Muslim, his way is orthodoxy, be it the majority form or a minority form.

I agree with you that "when people talk", they translate orthodoxy into "fundamental doctrines", but you as an individual with intellect can find out what these fundamentals are rather than just listening to what people say and making it "that's that".

 

[danieldemol]

This:

And this:

Are both inherent contradictions, you are intentionally not making sense.

Nope, there is what is orthodox to virtually all Muslims (what you are describing as “fundamental doctrines”) then there are is what is orthodox or fundamental to each particular sect, which can differ from what is orthodox or fundamental to another sect.

Think of it like a Venn diagram where the complete fundamentals of each sect have some overlap which you are calling the fundamental doctrines of all Islam.

Doctrine and orthodoxy are as related as saying that because cars have four wheels that all cars are the same. This is fallacious thinking, and perhaps a misunderstanding of the meaning of these words.

Google defines orthodoxy as
“authorized or generally accepted theory, doctrine, or practice.” As explained above, there is what is generally accepted by virtually all Muslims, and what is generally accepted by virtually all Muslims of a particular sect. The two groups of doctrines have some overlap, but are not the same.

Orthodoxy is a kind of singularity of interpretation, perspective, practice, implementation etc

Like the best in the game of semantics, you appear to be making up your own definitions to suit yourself.

 

[danieldemol]

There is no such thing as orthodox in anything if you dont base your scholarship on the "Majority". Thats to an outsider.

For an insider, vis a vis a Muslim, his way is orthodoxy, be it the majority form or a minority form.

So I take it you are agreed on the central thrust of what i’m saying (ie that there is orthodoxy in Islam).

I agree with you that "when people talk", they translate orthodoxy into "fundamental doctrines", but you as an individual with intellect can find out what these fundamentals are rather than just listening to what people say and making it "that's that".

I have no idea what you are talking about, I was arguing that there is orthodoxy in Islam, how what you are saying relates to that I haven’t got the foggiest clue