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I have trouble understanding the Trinity

InChrist

Free4ever
Again none of these verses say anyone has gone or will go to Heaven. John 3:13 says no man has ascended into Heaven. @ COR 5: 6-8 says if you are physically alive in your body then you are absent from the Lord. Ecclesiastes 9:5 says that the dead do not know anything.Surely if souls went to Heaven they would be aware of what was going on. So there is still no verse that says when or how a person is born again or that anyone is in Heaven. It is just the opposite, If you are alive in your body you are not born again and dead people are not aware of what is going on. Any other interpretation is just putting your own ideas into it. And Satan is very good at putting ideas in people's minds.

Lazarus and the rich man were certainly conscious and aware of what was going on after death.

So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.Luke 16:22-25

Yes in 2 Corinthians5:6-8 Paul says... while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord, but are you ignoring the remainder of the passage which says..."We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" ? Is not the Lord in heaven? If believers are present with the Lord are they then not in heaven?

The passage you have referred to in Ecclesiates is speaking in earthy context in reference to life and death from strictly the vantage point of the human, earthy experience and perspective. Certainly the dead know nothing or have no more reward concerning the things of this material life.The passage is not addressing one's spiritual/eternal condition after death.
 
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eiskalt

Member
This isn't a debate I've just decided to mull it over again after having been trying a Unitarian path for about three years. The principal parts I have confusion over are:
  1. Why would the Son pray to himself or say he doesn't know the will of the Father if he is on the same level?
  2. How does the three in one work without being slightly polytheistic?
  3. Did most early Christians movements pre-Nicea Council follow this ideology
  4. Can the Trinity be understood figuratively rather than literally?
Again I'm trying to debate I just really want to understand it but have great trouble wrapping my head around the concept.
P.S I haven't been on here in I think years so if there have been great changes help to adjust and its good to be back:)
Imagine a 3-headed-dragon. Each of the heads has a personality, but they are all dragon. If one dragon-head prays to another than the dragon just prays to another head of the dragon not to dragon himself. I think this dragon is actually easy to comprehend.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This isn't a debate I've just decided to mull it over again after having been trying a Unitarian path for about three years. The principal parts I have confusion over are:
  1. Why would the Son pray to himself or say he doesn't know the will of the Father if he is on the same level?
  2. How does the three in one work without being slightly polytheistic?
  3. Did most early Christians movements pre-Nicea Council follow this ideology
  4. Can the Trinity be understood figuratively rather than literally?
Again I'm trying to debate I just really want to understand it but have great trouble wrapping my head around the concept.
P.S I haven't been on here in I think years so if there have been great changes help to adjust and its good to be back:)
You are not alone in having trouble understanding the trinity. Neither the word "trinity" nor the concept are taught in the Bible. As you mentioned, Jesu never taught that he was God, but spoke if himself as God's Son, and God's representative. The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
So it appears that the trinity concept was invented by men in the 4th century. Neither the Bible nor Jesus had any such belief. It was around the 4th century that Satan began to take over the early religious movements and put many false ideas into the early church.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I didn't understand it either, but got further along. It isn't something that is logically incomprehensible.

First, I got the diagram which explains three separate Beings, but are one triune God.

8764-trinity-color.jpg


The analogy from the Nicene Creed that was explained to me is God, the Father, is like the sun.

Jesus, the Son, is like the radiance of the sun.

The Holy Spirit is like the heat from the sun.

The problem with any analogy is that it falls short when referring to the Trinity, so no analogy or analogies can explain it all.

I came up with an analogy to add to this since the sun was created on the 4th day.

I added the electromagnetic spectrum was created on the 1st day, so propose this analogy to add to the Nicene one.

God, the Father, is the source and gamma rays of the sun.

Jesus, the Son, is the ultraviolet and visible rays of the radiance.

The Holy Spirit is the infrared and radio waves of the heat.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Where does it say the sun was created on the 4th day ?

Please notice Genesis 1:3-5 because it was 'day one' for the sun.

On day 4 God ' made ' the already created sun to do something - Genesis 1:16-18
Just as a parent can make their created child do something such as: be made to sit in a chair, God ' made ' the created sun rule over the day or daylight hours.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
It is not hard to understand when you think of "God" as a family. There is only one family that is God but that family consists of the Father and the Son. Just like the Jones family is just one family but may have several members. Each member of the family is completely separate and apart from each other but they make up the one family. The Father and the Son are completely separate "persons" but they make up "God". One problem is that many people use the word "God" to refer to the Father but the Father is only part of God. But there is still only one God just like there is just one family. People actually make it more complicated by trying to explain how three "persons" can still be only one. But when you realize that the "one" is the family or group it makes more sense. At least it does when you let your mind be open and do not try to stick with official "church" explanations.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I certainly don't think the Trinity was a concept invented by men in the 4th century...

"...the triune nature of God is stamped on His creation. The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter and time. Each of these is divided into three. Space, for instance, is composed of length, breadth and width, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one. Length, breadth and width are not three spaces, but three dimensions comprising one space. Run enough lines lengthwise and you take in the whole. But so it is with the width and height. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is all of space—just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is each God.

Time also is a trinity: past, present and future—two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole. Man himself is a triunity of spirit, soul and body, two of which are invisible, one visible. Many more details could be given of the Godhead's triunity reflected in the universe. It can hardly be coincidence."
https://www.thebereancall.org/content/trinity
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
See post 103 where the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the ideas about the trinity began around the fourth century. They should know as much about it as anyone. There are also many things in nature that are made up of two. Light and dark. Male and female. Animal or vegetable. I can just as easily use these to show that God is two persons. Or how about north, south , east and west. Does that prove God is four persons.When your mind is already made up you cannot see other possibilities.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
See post 103 where the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the ideas about the trinity began around the fourth century. They should know as much about it as anyone. There are also many things in nature that are made up of two. Light and dark. Male and female. Animal or vegetable. I can just as easily use these to show that God is two persons. Or how about north, south , east and west. Does that prove God is four persons.When your mind is already made up you cannot see other possibilities.
I am not Catholic and I don't base truth on the Catholic Encyclopedia. I see the triune God expressed throughout scripture and believe the early church did also, well before the 4th century or Council of Nicea.

"Actually, Tertullian in 215 A.D. was the first one to state this doctrine using the term, Trinity.9 Concerning the struggle the early church went through, Walter Martin writes:

As the New Testament was completed toward the close of the first century, the infant church was struggling for its life against old foes—persecution and doctrinal error. On the one hand were the Roman empire, orthodox Judaism, and hostile pagan religions, and on the other hand were heresies and divisive doctrines. Early Christianity was indeed a perilous experiment.


Probably no doctrine was the subject of more controversy in the early church than that of the Trinity. Certainly the teaching of “one God in three Person” was accepted in the early church, but only as this teaching was challenged did a systematic doctrine of the Trinity emerge.


The Gnostic heresy, for instance, (which permeated Christendom in the lifetime of the apostles) drew strong condemnation in Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and John’s First Epistle. Denying the deity of Christ, the Gnostics taught that he was inferior in nature to the Father, a type of super-angel of impersonal emanation from God.


Following the Gnostics came such speculative theologians as Origen, Lucian of Antioch, Paul of Samosota, Sabellius, and Arius of Alexandria. All of these propagated unbiblical views of the Trinity and of the divinity of our Lord.


But perhaps the most crucial test of Christian doctrine in the early church was the “Arian heresy.” It was this heresy which stimulated the crystallization of thought regarding both the Trinity and the deity of Christ …


Today there are still remnants of the Gnostic heresy (Christian Science), the Arian heresy (Jehovah’s Witnesses), and the Socinian heresy (Unitarianism) circulating in Christendom. All of these errors have one thing in common—they give Christ every title except the one which entitles Him to all the rest—the title of God and Savior.


But the Christian doctrine of the Trinity did not “begin” at the Council of Nicea, nor was it derived from “pagan influences.” While Egyptian, Chaldean, Hindu, and other pagan religions do incorporate so-called “trinities,” these have no resemblance to the Christian doctrine, which is unique and free from any heathen cultural vagaries … 10


The point, then, is simply this: While the term Trinity is never specifically used nor the doctrine explicitly explained in Scripture, it is nevertheless implicitly stated. The church councils, in their fight against heresy, were forced to think through what the Bible says about how God exists. The result was the doctrine of the Triunity, but let it be emphasized, the development of this doctrine was based on a careful study of Scripture."

https://bible.org/article/trinity-triunity-god
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Why would the Son pray to himself
Because he wasn't praying to himself. He actually was praying to the father whenever he prayed.
How does the three in one work without being slightly polytheistic?
Because God is the community of three fully divine beings that are co-dependent on each other, not three separate deities.
Did most early Christians movements pre-Nicea Council follow this ideology
Why would the church choose to believe something completely opposite of what the first century Christians believed after only 300 years had passed?
Can the Trinity be understood figuratively rather than literally?
The Trinity can only be understood spiritually, take that however you want.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
The trinity doctrine says that the three "persons" are co-equal. But Jesus himself said that the Father was greater the Himself. Doesn't that contradict the basic idea of three co-equal persons if one is greater than another?
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
In Luke 1:35 the angel telss Mary she will have God's child. The angel says the Holy Spirit will come upon her and she will be overshadowed by the power of the Most High. This is saying that the Holy Spirit and the power of God are the same. Mary will become pregnant by the power of God. This power can be referred to as the Holy Spirit but that does not make it a separate person.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
The trinity doctrine says that the three "persons" are co-equal. But Jesus himself said that the Father was greater the Himself. Doesn't that contradict the basic idea of three co-equal persons if one is greater than another?
I don't think so. The president of the United States has a greater position than I do, but that does not make me any less human than he is. does it? I believe within the Trinity there are roles which each Person have: as the Father, as the Son, and as the Holy Spirit. The Father may have a different and greater role than the Son, which Jesus acknowledged, but that does not mean that the Son is not God any more than I am not human because the president has a greater role than I do. Besides, when Jesus spoke those words about His Father being greater He was also speaking from His lowered position of being in the flesh on earth.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
In Luke 1:35 the angel telss Mary she will have God's child. The angel says the Holy Spirit will come upon her and she will be overshadowed by the power of the Most High. This is saying that the Holy Spirit and the power of God are the same. Mary will become pregnant by the power of God. This power can be referred to as the Holy Spirit but that does not make it a separate person.
Actually, it seems to me that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are continuously working together in unison in their creative endeavors. The incarnation of Christ would be one such important event which certainly would involve all three Persons of the Most High God.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
So it appears that the trinity concept was invented by men in the 4th century. Neither the Bible nor Jesus had any such belief. It was around the 4th century that Satan began to take over the early religious movements and put many false ideas into the early church.
Actually, it dates back far earlier, as early as St. Ignatius of Antioch who wrote seven letters on his way to martyrdom in 107 AD (St. Ignatius was the third bishop of Antioch after St. Peter who founded the church at Antioch, and he was a direct student of St. John the Apostle) and St. Polycarp (another student of St. John's). We also see attestations to the idea of the Trinity from St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus, to name a couple from the pretty long list. If you would like, I can provide quotes from these people that show their belief in the Son and the Spirit both being God, along with the Father.

Now, whether you believe in what these early Christians taught and believed is up to you. I am personally a fan of knowing the historical realities at the time, and the fact is that the Trinity didn't pop up out of nowhere in the 300's. It has a far longer history than that.
 
This isn't a debate I've just decided to mull it over again after having been trying a Unitarian path for about three years. The principal parts I have confusion over are:
  1. Why would the Son pray to himself or say he doesn't know the will of the Father if he is on the same level?
  2. How does the three in one work without being slightly polytheistic?
  3. Did most early Christians movements pre-Nicea Council follow this ideology
  4. Can the Trinity be understood figuratively rather than literally?
Again I'm trying to debate I just really want to understand it but have great trouble wrapping my head around the concept.
P.S I haven't been on here in I think years so if there have been great changes help to adjust and its good to be back:)

The Bible says that the only God is the Father. :)

1 Cor. 8:6:

1 Corinthians 8:6
English Standard Version (ESV)
(6) yet for us there is one God, the Father,...

If you notice in the Lord's Prayer, Jesus prayed to the Father...He didn't pray to the Father, himself, and the Holy Spirit.
 

kaoticprofit

Active Member
InChrist said,

There are names given in the scriptures ...Spirit (Romans 8:26-27: 1 Corinthians 12:7-11), Comforter or Helper(,John 14:16, 26;15:26) ,Spirit of truth (John 14:17;16:13), Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13; John 1:33;Acts 2:4; 1 Corinthians 2:13; 12:3; Eph. 4:30), God (Acts 5:3-4) Are these not names which are acceptable to you?

They're acceptable names describing the Spirits' attributes, they're just not names like Yahweh or Jesus. The Holy Spirit emanates from the seven spirits of God and His presence CAN BE in one or a number of 'persons.' It's not ONE person. That's why it doesn't have ONE specific name, and why many attributes are 'attributed' to the Holy Spirit in scripture. The Holy Spirit covers 'every kind' of God's power. What do I mean by that?

Trinitarians can't even interpret this passage correctly.

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

This verse appears to imply that Jesus is all powerful but it doesn’t. What Jesus is saying is that 'every kind' of power is available to him. Those powers come from God through the seven Spirits of God. The word all is probably the most misunderstood and mistranslated word in the bible. When the word all is used without the article, it means, "every kind or every variety." I don't think God has always been understood as having just ONE power, but as One who has many powers, and that is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is certainly around the Throne of God. Do you really not see that when you read the scriptures in Revelation?

Really? Where? Here are most of them.

Revelation 4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Have you actually read the scriptures and understood the purpose and mission of the Son of God's life on earth? How can you ask questions such as , why He would call His Father greater or say only His Father knows the day or the hour? Did you not notice that the Son became flesh and subjected Himself to the human state and condition?

Have you actually ever STUDIED the scriptures and understood what they really say instead of what your religion says?
 
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soma

John Kuykendall
Trinity and string Theory

The Trinity is just another way of talking about duality in unity or unity in duality on an intellectual/intuitive level.


On the physical level if one does not like to talk about God then the duality in matter can be discussed. Matter has a dual nature, which is expressed in a particle and wave theory. The particulate nature of matter dominates the behavior of large-scale objects. These are the things we see with our senses because they are within are range of experience. The wave nature dominates small-scale (submicroscopic) level, which is beyond our range of experience. Our senses can’t grasp this so we need tools like the electron microscope. We use the words Quantum Mechanics to explain this with its set of laws and principles to explain the wave-particle duality. Quantum Mechanics is a concept used to explain that a particle and a wave are basically two manifestations of the same underlying entity (a string). A string is a term used to explain that a particle is a packet of compressed waves. The wave particle duality theory is just a bunch of words that say that particles do not exist without waves and vice versa. These words are to show the intellect, which exists in a world of duality that unity is possible.

The String Theory has been evolving since the 1980s. It brings together the most important aspects of quantum field theory to unify all fundamental forces of nature, including gravity. It explores and searches in our intellects for an explanation for unity using physical laws and theories. It predicts that everything in the universe, from galaxies and suns to atoms and subatomic particles, can be broken down to small loops of vibrating strings. These building blocks of our physical world are merely a pattern of vibrations, an ocean of energy.


The Trinity I feel is just words to describe what the mind can’t comprehend. It is a theory also to satisfy the intellect so we can have a spiritual experience beyond the mind of the unity of everything in our world of duality. I feel it is not a theory fixed in stone, but one that is also meant to evolve.

If one does not like the term God I can think of this word meaning a medium or ocean of pure consciousness. In this ocean or medium the Holy Trinity is in equilibrium. In this theory the Trinity is just a term used to express the three basic forces in nature. The trinity contains the force that freezes the water so that it may manifest itself in the form of ice bergs or physical matter so pure consciousness may materialize. The Trinity would be the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. When the Holy Trinity is in equilibrium it transcends the limitations of time; past, present and future; the genders; masculine, feminine and neuter; and the mind; conscious, subconscious and unconscious. When the equilibrium is disturbed, each principle of the Holy Trinity has the opportunity to express itself. I won’t go into detail, but I feel this is just a theory to explain the emergence of being from non-being or what we refer to as creation. In creation there is still oneness, but the awareness of this oneness in all things becomes lost in the individual awareness of the parts. I respect your aversion to the words Trinity and God. This is just my explanation so I can merge my Christianity and scientific nature. John Kuykendall's Author page
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Luke 16:14-31 is about an illustration, a parable, starting at verse 19 and Not a real happening.

Jesus taught ' sleep in death ' - John 11:11-14 which is in harmony with the old Hebrew Scriptures - Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

There was No post-mortem penalty for father Adam just returning to the dust where Adam started - Genesis 3:19
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before. Adam went from non-life, to life, and ' returned' back to non-life.
 
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