I am Israel

[Rakhel]

"Johnny does it too"!!!

My point behind this is that one cannot accuse another entity of violating a law while saying they are innocent.


But allow me to split hairs here(for just a minute). Israel has not declared war on the Palestinians. Hamas has declared war on Israel. Israel is not guilty violating that particular article. Hamas is.

A few points I have been pondering about all of this.

I read the "atrocities" Israeli freedom fighters did in order to rid the land of the British. Some were bad. One has to admit this. They were terrorists in their acts against the British in the '40s. How is Hamas and Fatah different?

One can find Palestinians as far east as Iran and as far west as Morocco. They are not even considered second-class citizens sitting in camps. Why are they Israel's responsibility? Why, after 60 years, are they not granted the same rights as citizens in the countries they reside in?

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Right you maintain that it is alright for Israel to annex land seized by warfare. That is not internationally accepted, thus it is wrong. Of course Zionists do not agree, but I am talking about morals and how the international community sees them.

Funny, it is internationally accepted to annex land seized in warfare in all cases except when Israel does it. Hypocrisy? I think so.

Second I am not passing this off as my writing, seeing that everything is in quotes. Why don't you get off the rocker and note that any idiot would realize this is from wiki reference numbers and all.

Yet you never show your reference.

No, it is not Israeli territory despite whatever backwards laws Israel imposes. They are held as lands for future Palestine even by Israel.

See the treaties that my wife referenced.

Sounds like ungrateful whining. Israel has maintained unconditional military support in the billions and is ensured military supremacy from its American ally. Second AIPAC ensures that there is no active legislation that would harm Israel's interests despite what the Independent or some other liberal paper prints.

Israel receives NO money for military from the United States. No cash, no loans, nothing. The United States SELLS Israel weapons. They also sell weapons to the PA.

EDIT: The United States, through the United Nations, DOES, however, give money to the PA. Much of that money lined the pockets of Arafat and now lines the pockets of Abu Mazen.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

"Johnny does it too"!!!

The point to be made: No combatant group abides by these rules. To indict one entity without indicting all is a trademark of hypocrisy.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Perhaps the only workable peace would be for the people of Gaza to be absorbed by Egypt

Egypt signed off Gaza, but didn't disengage its people from the area.

the West Bank to the other side of the river

The same with Jordan and Yesha

make Jerusalem a world heritage site with access to all.

The Arab world refused that offer already, back in the 1940s. Further Jerusalem is the Israeli capital. Nations are typically averse to ceding their capital to another entity. The primary issue that people have: Jews have their own country, now they are determined to show everyone how evil Jews are as a nation. In other words, this is another chapter of the same story Arabs and Europeans have been telling for the past 1500+ years.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Israel isn't guilt free in this and i disagree with the settlements,i see no signs of peace though.

Agreed, Israel isn't guilt free.
The settlements? I think they should be expanded, with more new settlements created. This land was ceded to Israel by two countries, and we should make use of it.
I see a sign of peace, through another major war.

 

[Vendetta]

Agreed, Israel isn't guilt free.
The settlements? I think they should be expanded, with more new settlements created. This land was ceded to Israel by two countries, and we should make use of it.
I see a sign of peace, through another major war.

That is unfortunate

 

[England my lionheart]

Egypt signed off Gaza, but didn't disengage its people from the area.

The same with Jordan and Yesha

The Arab world refused that offer already, back in the 1940s. Further Jerusalem is the Israeli capital. Nations are typically averse to ceding their capital to another entity. The primary issue that people have: Jews have their own country, now they are determined to show everyone how evil Jews are as a nation. In other words, this is another chapter of the same story Arabs and Europeans have been telling for the past 1500+ years.

I agree,thats the issue that irks them,they will never be satisfied whatever Israel does,it would be better if the Arab world absorbed the Palestinians,after all as one ex PLO member said,"i was Syrian one day but the next i was Palestinian",that tells its own story,for my part i think Israel has been very patient with this issue,i can't think of any other country that would tollerate such provocation without flattening Palestine.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I agree,thats the issue that irks them,they will never be satisfied whatever Israel does,it would be better if the Arab world absorbed the Palestinians,after all as one ex PLO member said,"i was Syrian one day but the next i was Palestinian",that tells its own story,for my part i think Israel has been very patient with this issue,i can't think of any other country that would tollerate such provocation without flattening Palestine.

I think that was actually Walid Shoebat that said that. Have a discussion about him in another thread. I'm not so sure now that things he says hold any merit.

 

[Rakhel]

Walid is Jordanian, not Syrian.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Agreed, Israel isn't guilt free.
The settlements? I think they should be expanded, with more new settlements created. This land was ceded to Israel by two countries, and we should make use of it.
I see a sign of peace, through another major war.

Firstly, I would ask for a source showing which two countries ceded the land to Israel.

Secondly, several International organizations consider this land to be sovereign to Palestinians and that the settlements are in fact an occupation.

Quotes:

The United Nations Security Council,[65] the United Nations General Assembly,[66] the United States,[67] the EU,[68] the International Court of Justice,[69] and the International Committee of the Red Cross[70] refer to it as Palestinian territory occupied by Israel. General Assembly resolution 58/292 (17 May 2004) affirmed that the Palestinian people have the right to sovereignty over the area.

According to supporters of Israel's rights, since the area has never in modern times been an independent state, there is no "legitimate" claimant to the area other than the present occupier, which is Israel. This argument however is not accepted by the international community and international lawmaking bodies, virtually all of whom regard Israel's activities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as an occupation that denies the fundamental principle of self-determination found in the Article One of the United Nations Charter, and in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

Funny, it is internationally accepted to annex land seized in warfare in all cases except when Israel does it. Hypocrisy? I think so.

Also in direct contradiction to International law

Further, UN Security Council Resolution 242 notes the "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war" regardless of whether the war in which the territory was acquired was offensive or defensive. Prominent Israeli human rights organizations such as B'tselem also refer to the Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip as an occupation.[72] John Quigley has noted that "...a state that uses force in self-defense may not retain territory it takes while repelling an attack. If Israel had acted in self-defense, that would not justify its retention of the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Under the UN Charter there can lawfully be no territorial gains from war, even by a state acting in self-defense

Source: West Bank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know some people do not consider wiki accurate, so take from it what you will

I'm not taking any sides on this issue, as I have already stated that both sides have their own ownership of it, I was merely pointing out a few points for you, in that what you said was not accurate.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Walid is Jordanian, not Syrian.

I stand corrected then. I remember hearing those exact words from someone in some documentary I've recently watched. Thought it might have been him. Thanks.

 

[kai]

Walid is Jordanian, not Syrian.

Yes he said (allegedly)

“One day during the 1960’s I went to bed a Jordanian Muslim, and when I woke up the next morning, I was informed that I was now a Palestinian Muslim, and that I was no longer a Jordanian Muslim"

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Yes he said (allegedly)

“One day during the 1960’s I went to bed a Jordanian Muslim, and when I woke up the next morning, I was informed that I was now a Palestinian Muslim, and that I was no longer a Jordanian Muslim"

So it was just a misunderstanding of the original nationality then. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Rakhel]

Jordan and Egypt didn't necessarily cede land to Israel, but they didn't fight for them either. Both countries left Gaza and the West Bank to the whims of the Isreali government. Otherwise, there would have been more argument over land boundaries when the treaties were drawn and signed.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Secondly, several International organizations consider this land to be sovereign to Palestinians and that the settlements are in fact an occupation.

I'd argue that there isn't a distinct "Palestinian" to have sovereignty over it. There was no outcry for independence when these lands were under Syrian, Jordanian, and Egyptian rule, therefore, I'd say that they were happy to be considered Syrian, Jordanian, and Egyptian. In that sense, send them behind the armistice lines under the authority of the nations of which they are citizens. Never in the history of the world was a nation who gained territory in a defensive war been asked to cede it either back to the nation it was taken from nor to create a new hostile nation in those lands. Never before the existence of Israel. As far as international organizations, they have no authority to make any claims or demands concerning Israel.

EDIT: Occupation or colonies? c'mon, be clear

 

[England my lionheart]

I think that was actually Walid Shoebat that said that. Have a discussion about him in another thread. I'm not so sure now that things he says hold any merit.

I couldn't quite remember his nationality,maybe what he says personally doesn't hold any water but i'm pretty sure that was the case for many Palestinians

 

[kai]

I couldn't quite remember his nationality,maybe what he says personally doesn't hold any water but i'm pretty sure that was the case for many Palestinians

I believe the theory was, that as a Jordanian you couldn't lay claim to the land that is Israel, but as a Palestinian? now thats a different ball game.

 

[Rakhel]

This is just a funny, but can you image the UN demanding the US return Texas back to Mexico? Or demanding Hawaii be given it's independence?

 

[HiddenDjinn]

This is just a funny, but can you image the UN demanding the US return Texas back to Mexico? Or demanding Hawaii be given it's independence?

Or, more apt, let the UN demand that the US form the Confederate States of America. Southerners DO have a distinct culture that is wholly different from the rest of the US. Further, Southern land has been exploited by the north for military bases and agricultural products. How long does the Southern man need to suffer under the boots of the North? How long until he can breathe free of the Northern occupation? How long must Southern young men die serving their Northern masters?

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Or, more apt, let the UN demand that the US form the Confederate States of America. Southerners DO have a distinct culture that is wholly different from the rest of the US. Further, Southern land has been exploited by the north for military bases and agricultural products. How long does the Southern man need to suffer under the boots of the North? How long until he can breathe free of the Northern occupation? How long must Southern young men die serving their Northern masters?

I really, really hope this is a jest...