How Would You Solve the Israeli - Palestinian Problem?

[darkendless]

I think the problem is that people like Abu Rashid (no offense to him) do not want Israel in the region at all, period. For him and others, there seems to be no compromising, it's all or nothing.

Exactly but it does and its not going anywhere. I would have thought something would be better than nothing?

I do not think Abu Rashid has any decent knowledge/information about Judaism even at that, seeing that he has basically called it a racist religion as well as other distasteful things.

Well from what i've seen on here over the years, muslims are just as racist if not more than anyone else.

 

[xkatz]

Exactly but it does and its not going anywhere. I would have thought something would be better than nothing?

Indeed. Unfortunately, not much can happen when one or both sides are unable to compromise and not wanting to deal with the other side.

Well from what i've seen on here over the years, muslims are just as racist if not more than anyone else.

Racism is not something that a person can really measure, there's just people who are and those who aren't. IMO, it's not that Muslims are any more racist than any other religious group/demographic per se. But many Muslims, mainly in pre-predominately Islamic countries (e.g. Saudi Arabia) are grossly misinformed about Judaism, mainly as a means of propaganda and to create animosity towards Israel b/c of the whole ordeal. This kind of propaganda doesn't help solve the conflict exactly.

 

[darkendless]

Indeed. Unfortunately, not much can happen when one or both sides are unable to compromise and not wanting to deal with the other side.

Yes, but the slandering against the jews is rather tiresome. Its as though the Palestinians can do no wrong.

Racism is not something that a person can really measure, there's just people who are and those who aren't. IMO, it's not that Muslims are any more racist than any other religious group/demographic per se. But many Muslims, especially in pre-predominately Islamic countries (e.g. Saudi Arabia) are grossly misinformed about Judaism, mainly as a means of propaganda and to create animosity towards Israel b/c of the whole ordeal.

No, but one does notice the snide comments based on religion/race. It just seems to me that muslims have a problem with jews no matter what (this is not a dig at abu at all, just a general comment).

Abu lives in Australia, he really has no excuse, we're weird down here but very multicultural

 

[xkatz]

Yes, but the slandering against the jews is rather tiresome. Its as though the Palestinians can do no wrong.

To be honest, you are only partially correct. Palestinians do deserve SOME of the blame for the current situation, but so does Israel. The methods of blocking off and isolating the West Bank and Gaza are a terrible idea since it allows groups like Fatah and Hamas to flourish in those areas. Some of the things Israel does have to change as well. However, if you mean Jewish people and Judaism in general, then yes, they shouldn't be slandered.

No, but one does notice the snide comments based on religion/race. It just seems to me that muslims have a problem with jews no matter what (this is not a dig at abu at all, just a general comment).

Abu lives in Australia, he really has no excuse, we're weird down here but very multicultural

I do not know many Muslims IRL so I cannot say that this necessarily true with Muslims living in "the West", but I can see it being a problem with Muslims in countries like Saudi Arabia, where they are taught Jews are basically monkeys. (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ill-swine-and-Jews-apes-in-Saudi-schools.html)

I can understand some of the anger, but you are right, Abu doesn't have an excuse to make snide comments about Jewish people or Judaism in general unless he knows what he is talking, which I find doubtful.

 

[darkendless]

To be honest, you are only partially correct. Palestinians do deserve SOME of the blame for the current situation, but so does Israel. The methods of blocking off and isolating the West Bank and Gaza are a terrible idea since it allows groups like Fatah and Hamas to flourish in those areas. Some of the things Israel does have to change as well. However, if you mean Jewish people and Judaism in general, then yes, they shouldn't be slandered.

Oh of course, i'm just saying that the muslims here who rehash the same things over and over are tiresome.

Israel and Palestine are just as bad as eachother but i dislike it that both sides only blame eachother.

I do not know many Muslims IRL so I cannot say that this necessarily true with Muslims living in "the West", but I can see it being a problem with Muslims in countries like Saudi Arabia, where they are taught Jews are basically monkeys. (Source: Christians still 'swine' and Jews 'apes' in Saudi schools - Telegraph)

I can understand some of the anger, but you are right, Abu doesn't have an excuse to make snide comments about Jewish people or Judaism in general unless he knows what he is talking, which I find doubtful.

He might, but snide comments are unhelpful.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

To be honest, you are only partially correct. Palestinians do deserve SOME of the blame for the current situation, but so does Israel. The methods of blocking off and isolating the West Bank and Gaza are a terrible idea since it allows groups like Fatah and Hamas to flourish in those areas. Some of the things Israel does have to change as well. However, if you mean Jewish people and Judaism in general, then yes, they shouldn't be slandered.

That's just the thing. The actions of both sides are locked in a positive feedback loop that keeps the current situation where it is.

The catch is where to break that loop.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Abu and Poison, what's your opinion on the Arab Peace Initiative?

The PLO was formed as a group with the goal of destroying Israel three years before Israel took any of the disputed territory. To say that peace will happen merely by pretending the 67 war didn't happen is naive, if not intentionally dishonest.

The Arab Peace Initiative is a "land for peace" situation, which history has proven to never work out for Israel... it always gives land, and has yet to receive peace.

If any progress is to be made, Israel's existence should be accepted unconditionally.

Peace first. That's the way to end conflict. That's the way to Palestinian statehood. That's the way to dismantle settlements, end walls and checkpoints and blockades. That's the way to discuss re-drawing the borders... Peace first.


Unfortunately, the only ones interested in peace are the ones being accused of brutal oppression and land theft.

 

[arimoff]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure that 1) Abu Rashid is not an Arab and 2) he has never killed for a drawing.

That comment almost sounded like a slur against an ethnic group. Am I wrong?

Maybe you are maybe you are not,

but so as this one: post #775

As is quite clear, the Jews own around about 5% of the land.

You see only what you want to see.

 

[Antifascist_Action]

How would I solve the Israel-Palestine conflict?

Well pardon me for being crass. But if I were Israel, I'd throw the glove down.

What we have here is one side which, although it might not be perfect, is secular, liberal and democratic (the only democracy, in fact, in the Middle East), and another side which is theocratic, reactionary and fascist. There really isn't a debate here. Any truly decent person would rather be caught dead than supporting the terrorist Arabs, much less even consider a disparaging remark about the Jewish people, who have suffered so much persecution for 5,000 years.

 

[Abu Rashid]

So you want Israel to just give the land back? Because thats really going to happen.

Yes, that's precisely what must happen. If it does not happen, then the conflict will continue, and it will regularly spill over into other areas. Anyone who doesn't realise the current U.S/Muslim conflict is directly related to U.S arming and backing of Israel would have to be pretty naive.

If Israel's "backers" are willing to back her all the way, even if it means copping the brunt of it themselves, then so be it.

Whats wrong with taking half? Isn't it better than the pre-existing nothing?

But it wasn't a pre-existing nothing, it was a pre-existing all.

Yes, but the slandering against the jews is rather tiresome. Its as though the Palestinians can do no wrong.

I don't believe I've slandered Jews here. Also the idea that it's the Palestinians who can do no wrong is a little upside down. Generally in the media, Palestinians are slandered for every little act of resistance they undertake whilst the Zionists are excused for every single atrocity they cause.

And when it comes down to it, the Palestinians really should not be held accountable for anything, since this is 100% thrust upon them. They didn't goto Lithuania or Britain and start fighting Jews, the Jews came to them and caused all of this.

Well from what i've seen on here over the years, muslims are just as racist if not more than anyone else.

This is just nonsense. Not to say there aren't the occasional ignorant racist Muslim, but it's pretty rare. Largely because Islam strictly forbids racism.

My guess is you're mistaking other things for racism.

It just seems to me that muslims have a problem with jews no matter what (this is not a dig at abu at all, just a general comment).

This is just completely wrong. There are for instance plenty of Muslims who are of Jewish ethnicity, so the idea Muslims are racist against Jews is just nonsensical (nevermind that Arabs and Jews are the same race anyway).

 

[Abu Rashid]

the Jewish people, who have suffered so much persecution for 5,000 years.

Must say I had quite a chuckle over this one.

5,000 years eh? that's a new one. So does that include for instance when they slaughtered the Amalekites? Killing men, women, children, elderly etc? Were those big bad evil Amalekites actually persecuting the Jews, and so that's why they had to genocide them (infants, sucklings and all) in response?

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember [that] which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid [wait] for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

 

[Abu Rashid]

I think the problem is that people like Abu Rashid (no offense to him) do not want Israel in the region at all, period.

Right, just as I don't want the U.S or Britain or France there either.

Do you mind if the Talibaan for instance come to your region? Would you be all dandy with that? Would you welcome them with open arms, if they came to expel you from your home and give it to Muslims? When you can honestly answer "yes I don't mind", then you have the right to speak about the Palestinians.

I do not think Abu Rashid has any decent knowledge/information about Judaism even at that

Well I won't claim to be an expert, but I'm pretty certain I have more of a working knowledge of Judaism and Hebrew than probably 95% of the non-Jewish population of the world.

but I can see it being a problem with Muslims in countries like Saudi Arabia, where they are taught Jews are basically monkeys.

Interesting coming from someone who just claimed I'm misinformed about other religions. The Qur'an does not teach Jews are monkeys, it mentions that some Jews were turned into monkeys.

Abu doesn't have an excuse to make snide comments about Jewish people or Judaism in general unless he knows what he is talking

Can you provide an example of me making a "snide comment about Jewish people or Judaism" please?

 

[darkendless]

Yes, that's precisely what must happen. If it does not happen, then the conflict will continue, and it will regularly spill over into other areas. Anyone who doesn't realise the current U.S/Muslim conflict is directly related to U.S arming and backing of Israel would have to be pretty naive.

Well it isn't going to happen. What kind of dream world do you live in?

If Israel's "backers" are willing to back her all the way, even if it means copping the brunt of it themselves, then so be it.

Too much has been invested to back and and surrender to the Palestinians. A concession is necessary, but Palestine won't take half.

But it wasn't a pre-existing nothing, it was a pre-existing all.

It wasn't nothing but it pretty much is now.

I don't believe I've slandered Jews here. Also the idea that it's the Palestinians who can do no wrong is a little upside down. Generally in the media, Palestinians are slandered for every little act of resistance they undertake whilst the Zionists are excused for every single atrocity they cause.

And when it comes down to it, the Palestinians really should not be held accountable for anything, since this is 100% thrust upon them. They didn't goto Lithuania or Britain and start fighting Jews, the Jews came to them and caused all of this.

Channel 7 in Australia was pretty much on Palestines side.

The Palestinians caused the current situation. They are 50% to blame.

This is just nonsense. Not to say there aren't the occasional ignorant racist Muslim, but it's pretty rare. Largely because Islam strictly forbids racism.

My guess is you're mistaking other things for racism.

No i'm not. Muslims are just as racist. Just because the Quran forgives it doesn't stop them showing their true colours.

Its natural, don't feel too bad

This is just completely wrong. There are for instance plenty of Muslims who are of Jewish ethnicity, so the idea Muslims are racist against Jews is just nonsensical (nevermind that Arabs and Jews are the same race anyway).

You havn;t been around here very long. Every time something happens in the contested areas the muslim members here get up in arms and slander the heck out of the Jews and call them all sorts of things. Sad but true. I don't honestly give a damn, im calling it as i see it.

 

[xkatz]

Well I won't claim to be an expert, but I'm pretty certain I have more of a working knowledge of Judaism and Hebrew than probably 95% of the non-Jewish population of the world.

That's a pretty bold claim there.

Interesting coming from someone who just claimed I'm misinformed about other religions. The Qur'an does not teach Jews are monkeys, it mentions that some Jews were turned into monkeys.

I was talking about education in Saudi Arabia and perhaps in other predominately Muslim countries, not the Quran. It doesn't necessarily have to do w/ the teachings of Islam, so please tell me how I am misinforming people about your religion?

Can you provide an example of me making a "snide comment about Jewish people or Judaism" please?

More than happy to,

African Jews who are the lowest caste in the racially-based Jewish hierarchy.

 

[croak]

Maybe you are maybe you are not,

but so as this one: post #775

As is quite clear, the Jews own around about 5% of the land.

You see only what you want to see.

I take it as "people of Jewish heritage and/or who believe in the Jewish faith" owned around 5% of the land at the time. I haven't done the statistics myself, so I can't say if it's exactly correct. However, how is "the Jews" more of a slur than "the Christians" or "the Muslims"? Let me just double-check if I did miss something.

It was mentioned that the Jews (referred to as such in the table) owned 5% of the land at that point in time, and argued that the land they have today was all seized by force. You could argue the latter point, and others have, but I don't see how that compares with insinuating that Arabs kill people for drawings, which is what I took from what you said.

I see what I see. If I'm missing something, let me know, but I'm quite sure you're missing more.

How would I solve the Israel-Palestine conflict?

Well pardon me for being crass. But if I were Israel, I'd throw the glove down.

What we have here is one side which, although it might not be perfect, is secular, liberal and democratic (the only democracy, in fact, in the Middle East), and another side which is theocratic, reactionary and fascist. There really isn't a debate here. Any truly decent person would rather be caught dead than supporting the terrorist Arabs, much less even consider a disparaging remark about the Jewish people, who have suffered so much persecution for 5,000 years.

Lebanon's not perfect, but it is a democracy. And, what do you know, it's in the Middle East. You can argue against its faults, sure, but don't go around saying Israel's the only bastion of democracy in these parts.

One part really deserves highlighting:

Any truly decent person would rather be caught dead than supporting the terrorist Arabs, much less even consider a disparaging remark about the Jewish people

You're not generalizing and saying all Arabs are terrorists, right? That would be a disparaging remark "any truly decent person would rather be caught dead" saying. Perhaps you mean those specific groups composed of Arabs that support terrorism. Well, why not mention them by name? Or say "terrorist groups"? But if you mean to say that every Arab is a terrorist, then I guess that automatically makes me one. What a compliment.

Also, you might not know, but practically every group on Earth has suffered persecution. The Beothuk have gone extinct, you know. I'm not denying the Jewish people have suffered, but is that to say that, for instance, the Arabs have never suffered? Oh right, they're all terrorists, they deserve it.

 

[Antifascist_Action]

African Jews who are the lowest caste in the racially-based Jewish hierarchy.

Abu, as a white person you should be the last to criticize the Jewish people for treating blacks poorly. Didn't the White Australian settlers murder the innocent Aborigine population? Anyhow, predominately, all anti-racist organizations were created by Jews and run by Jews. The Anti-Defamation League (adl.org) is a superb organization that promotes racial equality and justice for the Jewish people. Run by Abraham Foxman, a Jew who escaped the horrors of White Nazi Germany and the hells of the extermination camps in which over 6 million Jews were killed, the ADL was founded by the B'nai Brith, which was in turn also started by people of the Jewish faith. The Southern Poverty Law Center, started by Joe Levin and the good man Morris Dees, who was falsely accused of child molestation by the white system, ensures that racists don't get their say in corrupting the good youth of America. The Simon Wiesenthal Center (group dedicated towards fighting bigorty and nazi corruption) is run by Rabbi Marvin Hier, who is also it's founder. The NAACP is also an organization that owes it's existence to us Jews. One of it's founders was Henry Moscowitz, of course another fellow Jew. Early in the group's creation, Emeritus Joel Spingarn of Columbia University became chairman of the NAACP and recruited for its board such Jewish leaders as Jacob Schiff, Jacob Billikopf, and Rabbi Stephen Wise. (Wikipedia). It's quite plain to see that whenever there are equal rights, the Jewish people are there, as guides to a better tomorrow.

Lebanon's not perfect, but it is a democracy.

Lebanon, a democracy? Hardly. It's a theocracy, although a multi-religious one in which the highest offices are reserved for followers of certain religions. How many Jews are represented in the Lebanese government? Can an atheist ever be the president of Lebanon?

I fail to see how Lebanon can be considered a democracy when right-wing extremist parties like Hezbollah or the National Socialist Party are not only given a voice but also control over 10% of seats in the so-called Parliament. Some "democracy" all right.

 

[arimoff]

I take it as "people of Jewish heritage and/or who believe in the Jewish faith" owned around 5% of the land at the time. I haven't done the statistics myself, so I can't say if it's exactly correct. However, how is "the Jews" more of a slur than "the Christians" or "the Muslims"? Let me just double-check if I did miss something.
.

There is a big difference between saying Jews, Jewish people and the Jews.

As if you are not capable of seeing that your self.

There is no other way to understand the words "the Jew" from the same person who claimed the entity has no right to exist as hateful.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Well it isn't going to happen. What kind of dream world do you live in?

I don't know why people are so sure the Zionists will persist in their incursion. It seems you have more faith in them than they have in themselves, why?

The crusader occupation of Palestine lasted 99 years, so the Zionists still have another 30 odd years before they even top that. I personally don't think they, nor their benefactors can last even that long.

Americans, Brits, Aussies etc. are growing tired of their government's blind support for an occupation which has no immediate benefit for them anymore. Once the need to secure Middle East oil runs out, they'll drop the Zionists like a rotten sack of potatoes.

Channel 7 in Australia was pretty much on Palestines side.

Pretty much? You mean almost? Not quite? And I noticed you used past tense? If you just mean the recent event in the Mediterranean, how could anyone not oppose it? Raiding and murdering people in an aid convoy is a pretty unexplainable event, especially when Western politicians and media were on board it at the time.

The Palestinians caused the current situation. They are 50% to blame.

Because they refused to let their homes be stolen from them by invaders? Anyone who puts blame on them is lower than a snake's belly.

No i'm not. Muslims are just as racist. Just because the Quran forgives it doesn't stop them showing their true colours.

I don't remember mentioning the Qur'an. Islam forbids racism and does not forgive it. anyone engaging in racism would be committing a serious sin and is to be condemned.

 

[Abu Rashid]

That's a pretty bold claim there

Well it's based on my discussions with others, which if they ever touch on the subject of Judaism, I generally end up being the more informed party in the conversation. I have studied the religion to some extent, and still engage in study of it's sacred language.

I was talking about education in Saudi Arabia and perhaps in other predominately Muslim countries, not the Quran.

The education there is based on the Qur'an. The Qur'an says some of them were turned into monkeys, Western media outlets then sensationalise this to "Arabs think Jews are like monkeys" and that's how we get here.

Can you provide an example of me making a "snide comment about Jewish people or Judaism" please?

More than happy to,

African Jews who are the lowest caste in the racially-based Jewish hierarchy.

That's not a snide comment, it's a simple fact of the structure of their society, which has been observed by many Jews themselves. You quite obviously don't seem to understand what the word snide means.

 

[Caladan]

The crusader occupation of Palestine lasted 99 years, so the Zionists still have another 30 odd years before they even top that. I personally don't think they, nor their benefactors can last even that long.

You need a history lesson, the Crusaders Kingdom of Jerusalem lasted 200 years.

anyone engaging in racism would be committing a serious sin and is to be condemned.

Than you should be condemned for your anti-semitic libel in calling Jews- Khazars. it is evident that you are exceptionally obsessed with race.