How hard do you have to try to be an atheist?

[Jumi]

since you are not an atheist. I don't even know why we're debating this

Well I believe evolution theory and I'm trying to be helpful.

 

[Jumi]

But it is also common courtesy to clarify what it is you want explaining.

I haven't asked any explanations from you, did I? Just thought you saying "atheists don't need to explain anything" sounded off.

Perhaps you should follow your own guidelines

Ok?

 

[stvdv]

@Mestemia: And that may well be because you think spiders "invent" webs.
Seems to me that spiders do not "invent" webs, they simply spin them

I was just using that as an example of an animal creating his house... animals that create homes to live in, are not coming up with anything new, it's the same as it was for them thousands of years ago.
Yes, I realized that a spider does not invent a web, he spins a web following his instincts, but I was hoping nobody would point that out.
Congratulations on doing that!

Humans are becoming the biggest Tarantulas ever. Spinning a huge WEB. Who is "not-inventing": Tarantula or human?

 

[idav]

I think most of us have had periods in our life where we were atheists.

When you were an atheist, or if you are an atheist, do you ever have to try hard to be an atheist?

For instance, I would bite into a strawberry and observe the strawberry, taste the strawberry, and think to myself, maybe that strawberry was designed to be delightful to our taste buds.

It just seemed like as an atheist, there were constant signs popping up, that maybe there was some sort of intelligent design, destiny, and plan behind the existence of mankind.

I don't see chimpanzees or any other apes evolving... whatever the other apes invent, was the same thing they were inventing thousands of years ago.

It's like my baboon tarantula, invents all kinds of groovy webs, and intricate tunnels throughout the dirt, and it's his home.

That's an example of what animals invent. It is very primitive, and no more advanced then what they were creating thousands of years ago.

Humans on the other hand have Internet, space ships that fly to the moon, robots on Mars, satellites in outer space, airplanes, brain surgery, open heart surgery, kidney dialysis, pacemakers, x-rays, credit cards, MRIS, knee and hip replacement, cell phones, computers, printers, nuclear power, and nuclear weapons.

It made me think, perhaps scripture is right, that mankind was made in God's image, and maybe that is why we invent all these things that other Apes do not.

I don't see any evidence that other apes have evolved at all in thousands of years.

It was hard for me to be an atheist, when I can't find a single person on the planet who is half chimpanzee and half human. There really should be a chimpanzee out there that is more advanced than the rest at least, who invents something more new or something that resembles civilization.

These factors made it very difficult, and I had to try really hard to be an atheist.

It also made me wonder, how did this humble Jesus figure, who was born in a barn in complete poverty, and a humble Carpenter, start a movement that conquered the Roman Empire, and has Conquered 2.2 billion hearts, and lead to a book that is a best seller year after year?

How we date everything centers on his life, "before Christ or after Christ." And more books, shrines, structures, basilicas, and cathedrals are in his honor, more so than anyone else in history.

As an Atheist, it was hard for me to believe that evolved chimps wrote a fairytale, that influences and governs more than 2.2 billion Christians, and 1.8 billion Muslims, in a massively powerful way.

I always had to wonder, perhaps there is a supernatural force behind all of this? Perhaps this was the destiny of mankind?

Any thoughts?

Humans are fascinating Apes...

It’s harder to believe that a God just existed without evolving fully formed with infinite knowledge than it is to believe that animals evolved slowly over billions of years in small increments diverging here and there. The evidence certainly is there for human evolution, what’s hard to believe is we don’t have any real hindsight without looking at a ton of evidence. We don’t see all the transitions alive today because 99% percent of the earths species have gone extinct. There were Neanderthals that got killed off and there are numerous transitions found in the fossil record but only the one percent survive. You can call that intelligently guided but I say it’s horribly guided even for trial and error.

 

[Valjean]

I think most of us have had periods in our life where we were atheists.

When you were an atheist, or if you are an atheist, do you ever have to try hard to be an atheist?

For instance, I would bite into a strawberry and observe the strawberry, taste the strawberry, and think to myself, maybe that strawberry was designed to be delightful to our taste buds.

It just seemed like as an atheist, there were constant signs popping up, that maybe there was some sort of intelligent design, destiny, and plan behind the existence of mankind.

So you're saying that because you don't understand why strawberries are sweet; the mechanisms by which they came to be as they are -- which you should have learned in high school -- then they were made that way by magic?
That still doesn't explain the mechanisms involved.

I don't see chimpanzees or any other apes evolving... whatever the other apes invent, was the same thing they were inventing thousands of years ago.

It's like my baboon tarantula, invents all kinds of groovy webs, and intricate tunnels throughout the dirt, and it's his home.

That's an example of what animals invent. It is very primitive, and no more advanced then what they were creating thousands of years ago.

How do you not understand this? The evidence for change is everywhere. Did you miss biology class? Have you made any effort to understand the mechanisms discovered by science?

Humans on the other hand have Internet, space ships that fly to the moon, robots on Mars, satellites in outer space, airplanes, brain surgery, open heart surgery, kidney dialysis, pacemakers, x-rays, credit cards, MRIS, knee and hip replacement, cell phones, computers, printers, nuclear power, and nuclear weapons.

It made me think, perhaps scripture is right, that mankind was made in God's image, and maybe that is why we invent all these things that other Apes do not.

I don't see any evidence that other apes have evolved at all in thousands of years.

It was hard for me to be an atheist, when I can't find a single person on the planet who is half chimpanzee and half human. There really should be a chimpanzee out there that is more advanced than the rest at least, who invents something more new or something that resembles civilization.

Humans at least as intelligent as ourselves have existed for 100,000 years or more, yet all these things developed just yesterday.You're arguing from incredulity.
There are cultural and environmental reasons for our rapid change.
Morphological change occurs when a changing environment gives certain natural variations advantages, which improve their survival and reproductive success, so they're passed on and become typical in the species.

These factors made it very difficult, and I had to try really hard to be an atheist.

You're arguing from incredulity. You don't see/understand our evolution, so magical design is the only other 'explanation'? That's a false dichotomy.

It also made me wonder, how did this humble Jesus figure, who was born in a barn in complete poverty, and a humble Carpenter, start a movement that conquered the Roman Empire, and has Conquered 2.2 billion hearts, and lead to a book that is a best seller year after year?

How did Buddha, or Confucius, or Muhammad, or Alaric?
Random luck.

How we date everything centers on his life, "before Christ or after Christ." And more books, shrines, structures, basilicas, and cathedrals are in his honor, more so than anyone else in history.

Argumentum ad populum.
Have you considered the Hebrew or Muslim calendars? An accident of history isn't evidence for divinity.

As an Atheist, it was hard for me to believe that evolved chimps wrote a fairytale, that influences and governs more than 2.2 billion Christians, and 1.8 billion Muslims, in a massively powerful way.

I always had to wonder, perhaps there is a supernatural force behind all of this? Perhaps this was the destiny of mankind?

Any thoughts?

Humans are fascinating Apes...

Our cultural history is, indeed, fascinating, but I see no reason to invoke any magical intervention to explain this. Nor would divine attribution explain anything. It's an assertion of agency, not an explanation. The miraculous remains unexplained.

 

[Spiderman]

So you're saying that because you don't understand why strawberries are sweet; the mechanisms by which they came to be as they are -- which you should have learned in high school -- then they were made that way by magic?
That still doesn't explain the mechanisms involved.

How do you not understand this? The evidence for change is everywhere. Did you miss biology class? Have you made any effort to understand the mechanisms discovered by science?
Humans at least as intelligent as ourselves have existed for 100,000 years or more, yet all these things developed just yesterday.You're arguing from incredulity.
There are cultural and environmental reasons for our rapid change.
Morphological change occurs when a changing environment gives certain natural variations advantages, which improve their survival and reproductive success, so they're passed on and become typical in the species.
You're arguing from incredulity. You don't see/understand our evolution, so magical design is the only other 'explanation'? That's a false dichotomy.
How did Buddha, or Confucius, or Muhammad, or Alaric?
Random luck.
[quote[How we date everything centers on his life, "before Christ or after Christ." And more books, shrines, structures, basilicas, and cathedrals are in his honor, more so than anyone else in history.

Argumentum ad populum.
Have you considered the Hebrew or Muslim calendars? An accident of history isn't evidence for divinity.

Our cultural history is, indeed, fascinating, but I see no reason to invoke any magical intervention to explain this. Nor would divine attribution explain anything. It's an assertion of agency, not an explanation. The miraculous remains unexplained.[/QUOTE]
I believe those scientific mechanisms exist with the help of a creating intelligent designer with a plan.

I'm not able to believe pond scum eventually came forth from a big bang, and the energy to create that bang came out of nowhere and nothing, so that all these scientific mechanisms take place, and the material world and carbon begin existing out of nothing, and out of some pond scum a creature emerged that eventually evolved into an ape that creates a printing press, cell phone, automobiles, internet, airplanes, space ships that go to the Moon, satellites in the sky, and robots on Mars.

I'm not able to believe that such a creature could just emerge from pond scum, without the help of a higher power that is intelligent and has a plan.

 

[Valjean]

I believe those scientific mechanisms exist with the help of a creating intelligent designer with a plan.

But you have no evidence for this. You believe it because it's comfortable to you.

I'm not able to believe pond scum eventually came forth from a big bang, and the energy to create that bang came out of nowhere and nothing, so that all these scientific mechanisms take place, and the material world and carbon begin existing out of nothing, and out of some pond scum a creature emerged that eventually evolved into an ape that creates a printing press, cell phone, automobiles, internet, airplanes, space ships that go to the Moon, satellites in the sky, and robots on Mars.

So you're arguing, in effect, that 'I'm too stupid to understand the physics involved ("I'm not able to believe"), ergo, the physics is wrong'.
Science has explained most of these things, step by step, and provided the evidence and mathematics behind these explanations. Just because you're ignorant of these doesn't make it reasonable to dismiss them
You're 'thinking' with your heart, not your head. Stop that.

I'm not able to believe that such a creature could just emerge from pond scum, without the help of a higher power that is intelligent and has a plan.

Stop insisting you're stupid. Stop basing opinions on feelings. Before you dismiss natural causes, at least make an effort to understand them. Before proposing an alternative "explanation," at least gather some supporting evidence.
Incredulity is not evidence.

 

[Quintessence]

When you were an atheist, or if you are an atheist, do you ever have to try hard to be an atheist?

No. It was as effortless as ignorance, as it was the product of ignorance: ignorance about what theism really was, and ignorance about what religion really was. The effort came when I bothered to actually learn about theism and religion.

 

[atanu]

...
Science has explained most of these things, step by step, and provided the evidence and mathematics behind these explanations. Just because you're ignorant of these doesn't make it reasonable to dismiss them
....

No. I am from science. I have not seen that mathematics has explained birth of life-awareness.

 

[Polymath257]

I always found it much harder to try to convince myself that there is a creator than to look around and see none.

 

[syo]

it's very easy to be an atheist. just deny everything.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It would be incredibly much more difficult for me to try and be a theist. There is just way too much you have to accept without having true knowledge. As a theist you don't have anything at all that can be demonstrated to you that corroborates your belief in the supernatural qualities of God or supposed supernatural qualities of the cosmos. Nothing.

I often liken religious practice to the way they must portray "magic" in the movies. Magic ends up being some combination of will-power, concentration and maybe uttering some phrase or drawing some symbol. When someone is teaching someone else magic in movies, they invariably end up having to give them completely vague and inadequate instructions - like to "focus" their mind, or maybe picture something in their head as they "cast the spell." They say some words, and then the magic just somehow happens. This is exactly like the tired old phrases theists often use: "Read your [insert text], reflect/pray upon it, and the truth will be revealed"

Can you imagine if you were learning a subject in a school and THAT is what your teacher provided?!? What credibility do you feel a school attempting to teach that way would have? As a student, how would you feel going into a quiz/test/exam?

 

[stvdv]

For me it's easy to believe there is a creator. Looking around seeing all the magic it's hard to be an atheist. Looking within even more hard.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think most of us have had periods in our life where we were atheists.

When you were an atheist, or if you are an atheist, do you ever have to try hard to be an atheist?

Not at all. It takes no effort whatsoever. I truly believe it to be the default state for most, nearly all people.

If anything, I have a variously hard time dealing with the reality that not everyone is an atheist.

Perhaps I have been exposed too consistently to the chaotic nature of existence to seriously consider theism. I don't know.

It probably helps that I had a fairly good basic education.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Lol....I think that atheism is a natural choice for all those who were traumatized by a Catholic upbringing. I can relate

Being traumatized by christianity does not require the brand to be "catholic" or even "catholic lite".

I grew up traumatized by protestantism, and a rather abusive version of it too. It had all the classic trappings: Believed they were exclusive messengers from god, believed they should proselyte all other brands, believed every other place on earth was not only controlled by Satan, but that they were all going straight to Hell without the courtesy of a funeral, and the final clincher? Believed that somewhat more than 1/2 of their own local church, was also going to hell.... !

But I got better. (and no, being a Newt was no fun at all, in spite of the fact you could breathe underwater....)

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Could you be more specific?

as an atheist I was trying to believe that we evolved from chimps at random without any supernatural plan or design.

Then someone who taught you that falsehood, did you a Great Harm-- because that isn't what evolution says. Not even a little....

*sigh*

Evolution isn't a random process-- not even close. Yes, there are random elements, but those are about as relevant as tossing the dice during a game of Monopoly..... !

 

[Spiderman]

It would be incredibly much more difficult for me to try and be a theist. There is just way too much you have to accept without having true knowledge. As a theist you don't have anything at all that can be demonstrated to you that corroborates your belief in the supernatural qualities of God or supposed supernatural qualities of the cosmos. Nothing.

I often liken religious practice to the way they must portray "magic" in the movies. Magic ends up being some combination of will-power, concentration and maybe uttering some phrase or drawing some symbol. When someone is teaching someone else magic in movies, they invariably end up having to give them completely vague and inadequate instructions - like to "focus" their mind, or maybe picture something in their head as they "cast the spell." They say some words, and then the magic just somehow happens. This is exactly like the tired old phrases theists often use: "Read your [insert text], reflect/pray upon it, and the truth will be revealed"

Can you imagine if you were learning a subject in a school and THAT is what your teacher provided?!? What credibility do you feel a school attempting to teach that way would have? As a student, how would you feel going into a quiz/test/exam?

Great post!

 

[ecco]

I think most of us have had periods in our life where we were atheists.

Aside from you personal opinion, do you have anything to back that up?

Most people are born into a religion, are raised in that religion and stay with that religion.

When you were an atheist, or if you are an atheist, do you ever have to try hard to be an atheist?

I am. No, it was never hard, it came naturally.

It was hard for me to be an atheist, when I can't find a single person on the planet who is half chimpanzee and half human. There really should be a chimpanzee out there that is more advanced than the rest at least, who invents something more new or something that resembles civilization.

These factors made it very difficult, and I had to try really hard to be an atheist.

Let's be honest. You were never an atheist.

You are, and always have been, a religious person who has said to himself:

• I really cannot comprehend how anyone can be an atheist.
• Don't atheists realize that monkeys could never turn into humans?
• Don't atheists realize how great Jesus is?

 

[ecco]

It would be a lot harder for me to believe that out of nothing came a round Earth, and a sun in the perfect place, so that plants and animals could have life, and then Precious resources like gold, silver, diamonds, water, fruit, vegetables, herbs, animals, and eventually human beings all just started existing, and it essentially came from nothing,

Why do you ignore the fact that there are 7 other planets in just our solar system that are inhospitable to life?
Why do you ignore the fact that there millions of stars whose systems are completely inhospitable to life?

Life is here because this rock did have the right conditions for life. Life is not on millions of other rocks because they don't have the right conditions for life. Orange trees do no grow in the antarctic.

Nevertheless, there are billions of stars. Probability makes it certain that there are millions of stars with hospitable rocks with thinking creatures out there. Some of them are probably pondering how unlikely it is that they are there. Some of them are probably convinced that a god must have made it all just for them.

 

[Valjean]

it's very easy to be an atheist. just deny everything.

Basic atheism doesn't deny anything, it just reserves judgement pending evidence. Nothing hard about that. My cat can do it.
isn't atheism just the natural, epistemic default position?