How Do You Understand The Gospel?

[BilliardsBall]

That is what he told his accusers. As "The Word" (Logos) who was "in the beginning" with his Father as his firstborn son, the spirit being who became the man Jesus, was definitely in existence before Abraham.


He is and always has been the "only begotten son" of his Father. He is a unique creation because he existed before all things and through him all things came into existence. But he is not the Creator...only the Father can carry that title.
The pre-human Jesus was the Father's "master workman" (Prov 8:22, 30, 31) and was with his God as the fabricator of the raw materials used to bring all things into being. (Col 1:15-17) He is the agency through which God created everything we see and the things we don't see. He is "the image" or reflection of his Father and the most important personage in existence apart from his God. He is not just an angel, (which means messenger) he is God son. He is commander and chief of all the army of the heavens. (2 Thess 1:7-9)

Seeing Jesus as a deity equal with his Father is blasphemous. It is a violation of the first Commandment. He never once claimed the position given to him by Christendom.

I think I follow, He is an "image, reflection, only begotten" but is more than man, is not an angel, and is not deity. Where can I find out who Jesus is/what Jesus is, please? Salvation and this thread are somewhat dependent on your answer.

 

[JesusBeliever]

Thanks jeager106. I looked at the verses in the reference. None specifically says people go to heaven.
Matthew 18:10 says that angels see the face of my Father who is in Heaven
John 14:2 says in my Father's house are many rooms - does not use the word heaven
Phillipians 3:20 says our citizenship is in heaven - may be a citizen of China and never go there
Kings 8:30 is talking to God and says listen in heaven, your dwelling place
Since "going to heaven" is probably the single most important belief in many religions you would think there would be clear Bible verses that talk about it.. There is not one verse that says anything like King David went to heaven, or Moses is in heaven or I will take you to heaven, or you are going to heaven.
So if anyone has that verse that uses the word heaven and says y\ so I am still looking for the proof verse thar says anyone is in or went to or is going to heaven.people go there, please quote it for me. Actually there is a verse the says no man has ascended into heaven.

Hi there, there is every indication in Scripture that God always intended for the Kingdom of Heaven to come to earth. Just do a Scripture search on the words "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" and you'll probably wonder how you ever missed it (that is if you missed it?)

I encourage all my brothers and sisters in the Lord to not be afraid to prayerfully re-evaluate the interpretation of Scripture and more particularly the Prophecies of Scripture that we have been fed the last several decades. I know myself, I got a lot of my preconceived notions about End Times from Tele-Evangalism and End-Time Prophecy videos, but the more and more I studied the Scriptures the more and more I moved away from it.

I am of the understanding that Mainstream Christianity teaches that the last 70th week of Daniel is yet future. But consider this? What if they are wrong? And there was no gap-theory? No big pause as I've heard some call it? What year would we arrive at if we counted the 70 weeks without such a gap? The reason I ask this and encourage those of us here to seek out the answer is because, like I said above, a Scripture search on the words "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" indicate that Jesus sowed (like a seed) the Kingdom of God in the earth during His First Coming as it is written:
[VERSE="Luk17:20-24, KJV"]"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day." Luk 17:20-24[/VERSE]
PLEASE NOTE the separation between the Kingdom of God coming NOT WITH OBSERVATION and the Second Coming of the Lord being the day when EVERY EYE shall see Him! I am strongly inclined to believe that the Kingdom of God has been among us for over 2000 years, but like the the Lord Jesus told us:
[VERSE="Mat 11:12, KJV"]"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." [/VERSE]
But the Good News about this seed that the Lord Jesus planted in the earth all those years ago is this:
[VERSE="Isa 61:11, KJV"]"For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations."[/VERSE]

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Hi there, there is every indication in Scripture that God always intended for the Kingdom of Heaven to come to earth. Just do a Scripture search on the words "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" and you'll probably wonder how you ever missed it (that is if you missed it?)

I encourage all my brothers and sisters in the Lord to not be afraid to prayerfully re-evaluate the interpretation of Scripture and more particularly the Prophecies of Scripture that we have been fed the last several decades. I know myself, I got a lot of my preconceived notions about End Times from Tele-Evangalism and End-Time Prophecy videos, but the more and more I studied the Scriptures the more and more I moved away from it.

I am of the understanding that Mainstream Christianity teaches that the last 70th week of Daniel is yet future. But consider this? What if they are wrong? And there was no gap-theory? No big pause as I've heard some call it? What year would we arrive at if we counted the 70 weeks without such a gap? The reason I ask this and encourage those of us here to seek out the answer is because, like I said above, a Scripture search on the words "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" indicate that Jesus sowed (like a seed) the Kingdom of God in the earth during His First Coming as it is written:
[VERSE="Luk17:20-24, KJV"]"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day." Luk 17:20-24[/VERSE]
PLEASE NOTE the separation between the Kingdom of God coming NOT WITH OBSERVATION and the Second Coming of the Lord being the day when EVERY EYE shall see Him! I am strongly inclined to believe that the Kingdom of God has been among us for over 2000 years, but like the the Lord Jesus told us:
[VERSE="Mat 11:12, KJV"]"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." [/VERSE]
But the Good News about this seed that the Lord Jesus planted in the earth all those years ago is this:
[VERSE="Isa 61:11, KJV"]"For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations."[/VERSE]

Excellent post. Very intuitive.

Add to that the understanding that the seed which needed to be sown was spiritual seed rather than tangible seed. That seed was the the godly image lost for us by the first Adam but supplied back to us to be sown amidst the soil representing men's hearts, by the birth of Jesus into this world as a Son of God to plant that that image lost to us by the first human son of God, Adam. Luke 3:38

That image was not able to be sown in men's hearts before Jesus brought that image back into the world for us.

Added: That image can be referred to as the righteousness of God, for it is the image of God's righteousness which no man was fully able to know until Jesus brought it back into the world for man to see and touch and emulate, thus sowing that image to themselves in the fertile soil of the heart.

 

[JayJayDee]

I think I follow, He is an "image, reflection, only begotten" but is more than man, is not an angel, and is not deity. Where can I find out who Jesus is/what Jesus is, please? Salvation and this thread are somewhat dependent on your answer.

God has many "sons" as the Bible clearly states. The angels and even Adam are called "sons of God", (Job 1:6; Luke 3:38) but they are unlike this unique "son of God" who is "only begotten".....a "begotten" son needs a 'begetter'. "The Word" (Logos) was "with God in the beginning", meaning the beginning of creation, because the eternal God has no beginning. He is the first and only direct creation of the Father, which makes him unique. (Col 1:15, 16) So as it says in these scriptures that all other things were brought into existence "through" the son, who is "the firstborn of all creation"...."the beginning of the creation by God". (Rev 3:14)

Jesus speaks of his Father as his God even after his return to heaven. (Rev 3:12) Can God have a God?

In John 1:1 there are two "mighty ones" spoken about....but only one is "ho theos" (The God) The other is "theos" (god, mighty one) but in John 1:18, he is called "the only begotten god".....since the Almighty cannot be "begotten", it is clear that this is a lesser personage than the Almighty himself, but still a powerful personage.

Angels, human judges and even satan are all called "gods" in the scriptures. Understanding how "theos" is used in the Greek will show that it is not an exclusive title for the Father.

Jesus called his Father "the only true God" (John 17:3) but he did not include himself in that designation.....why do so many Christians ignore this scripture? Because it separates Jesus from his Creator and shows him as a servant of his God, sent to accomplish a rescue mission.

All spirit beings are "sons of God" regardless of their station.....He is their Father too. When Jesus prayed, "OUR Father in heaven", he was confirming that Jehovah is the Father of all....both humans and angels. (John 20:17)

In a nutshell, the spirit being who became the man Jesus, was a unique son of God, a divine, powerful creature who was subject to his Father both in heaven and on earth.

Salvation is dependent on us honouring the son for who he was, and who he is now...our savior who was sent to pay a ransom for the human race by offering to die for them (actually instead of them).....but his sacrifice only applies to those who obey what he taught, which he said came from his Father. (John 8:28; 7:18)

By placing the son in an equal position with the Father, the devil has the majority of those who claim to be "Christians", committing blasphemy. This will automatically see them face the death penalty, as ones that Jesus NEVER knew, when the judgment comes. Do you see why Jesus says that "few" are on the road to life? (Matt 7:13, 14:21-23)

Those who fail to obey what Jesus taught, or those who refuse to listen to the Christian message, will not be granted life.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10....."This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed." (ESV)

We determine our own worthiness or unworthiness in God's eyes by what we accept as truth. Those who will enjoy salvation are either as those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven, or as those over whom they will rule on earth. Since the "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) are chosen by God himself, we have no say about where we will enjoy our everlasting life. We are so grateful for the privilege of life itself, that it doesn't matter.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Hi there, there is every indication in Scripture that God always intended for the Kingdom of Heaven to come to earth. Just do a Scripture search on the words "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" and you'll probably wonder how you ever missed it (that is if you missed it?)

I encourage all my brothers and sisters in the Lord to not be afraid to prayerfully re-evaluate the interpretation of Scripture and more particularly the Prophecies of Scripture that we have been fed the last several decades. I know myself, I got a lot of my preconceived notions about End Times from Tele-Evangalism and End-Time Prophecy videos, but the more and more I studied the Scriptures the more and more I moved away from it.

I am of the understanding that Mainstream Christianity teaches that the last 70th week of Daniel is yet future. But consider this? What if they are wrong? And there was no gap-theory? No big pause as I've heard some call it? What year would we arrive at if we counted the 70 weeks without such a gap? The reason I ask this and encourage those of us here to seek out the answer is because, like I said above, a Scripture search on the words "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" indicate that Jesus sowed (like a seed) the Kingdom of God in the earth during His First Coming as it is written:
[VERSE="Luk17:20-24, KJV"]"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day." Luk 17:20-24[/VERSE]
PLEASE NOTE the separation between the Kingdom of God coming NOT WITH OBSERVATION and the Second Coming of the Lord being the day when EVERY EYE shall see Him! I am strongly inclined to believe that the Kingdom of God has been among us for over 2000 years, but like the the Lord Jesus told us:
[VERSE="Mat 11:12, KJV"]"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." [/VERSE]
But the Good News about this seed that the Lord Jesus planted in the earth all those years ago is this:
[VERSE="Isa 61:11, KJV"]"For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations."[/VERSE]

I think this post is off-topic. Please come back to the matter of salvation if you would.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Excellent post. Very intuitive.

Add to that the understanding that the seed which needed to be sown was spiritual seed rather than tangible seed. That seed was the the godly image lost for us by the first Adam but supplied back to us to be sown amidst the soil representing men's hearts, by the birth of Jesus into this world as a Son of God to plant that that image lost to us by the first human son of God, Adam. Luke 3:38

That image was not able to be sown in men's hearts before Jesus brought that image back into the world for us.

Added: That image can be referred to as the righteousness of God, for it is the image of God's righteousness which no man was fully able to know until Jesus brought it back into the world for man to see and touch and emulate, thus sowing that image to themselves in the fertile soil of the heart.

Jesus is "the righteousness of God" and the "image of God" so how does that help us via salvation?

 

[BilliardsBall]

God has many "sons" as the Bible clearly states. The angels and even Adam are called "sons of God", (Job 1:6; Luke 3:38) but they are unlike this unique "son of God" who is "only begotten".....a "begotten" son needs a 'begetter'. "The Word" (Logos) was "with God in the beginning", meaning the beginning of creation, because the eternal God has no beginning. He is the first and only direct creation of the Father, which makes him unique. (Col 1:15, 16) So as it says in these scriptures that all other things were brought into existence "through" the son, who is "the firstborn of all creation"...."the beginning of the creation by God". (Rev 3:14)

Jesus speaks of his Father as his God even after his return to heaven. (Rev 3:12) Can God have a God?

In John 1:1 there are two "mighty ones" spoken about....but only one is "ho theos" (The God) The other is "theos" (god, mighty one) but in John 1:18, he is called "the only begotten god".....since the Almighty cannot be "begotten", it is clear that this is a lesser personage than the Almighty himself, but still a powerful personage.

Angels, human judges and even satan are all called "gods" in the scriptures. Understanding how "theos" is used in the Greek will show that it is not an exclusive title for the Father.

Jesus called his Father "the only true God" (John 17:3) but he did not include himself in that designation.....why do you so many Christians ignore this scripture? Because it separates Jesus from his Creator and shows him as a servant of his God, sent to accomplish a rescue mission.

All spirit beings are "sons of God" regardless of their station.....He is their Father too. When Jesus prayed, "OUR Father in heaven", he was confirming that Jehovah is the Father of all....both humans and angels. (John 20:17)

In a nutshell, the spirit being who became the man Jesus, was a unique son of God, a divine, powerful creature who was subject to his Father both in heaven and on earth.

Salvation is dependent on us honouring the son for who he was, and who he is now...our savior who was sent to pay a ransom for the human race by offering to die for them (actually instead of them).....but his sacrifice only applies to those who obey what he taught, which he said came from his Father. (John 8:28; 7:18)

By placing the son in an equal position with the Father, the devil has the majority of those who claim to be "Christians", committing blasphemy. This will automatically see them face the death penalty, as ones that Jesus NEVER knew, when the judgment comes. Do you see why Jesus says that "few" are on the road to life? (Matt 7:13, 14:21-23)

Those who fail to obey what Jesus taught, or those who refuse to listen to the Christian message, will not be granted life.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10....."This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed." (ESV)

We determine our own worthiness or unworthiness in God's eyes by what we accept as truth. Those who will enjoy salvation are either as those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven, or as those over whom they will rule on earth. Since the "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) are chosen by God himself, we have no say about where we will enjoy our everlasting life. We are so grateful for the privilege of life itself, that it doesn't matter.

I agree that Jesus is the Son of God. Not to do so would be heresy, right?

Can you please explain how the Son is neither God, nor an angel, nor a mere man? I guess the issue I have with JW theology is that Jesus is an example we follow to earn salvation (did I get that correct)?

I believe rather we trust Jesus's substitutionary atonement to be saved. No one is perfect except Jesus, who is God Himself. We trust His death and resurrection and are saved!

Thanks!

 

[JayJayDee]

I agree that Jesus is the Son of God. Not to do so would be heresy, right?

Jesus only ever said he was "God's son".....never once did he claim to be equal with his Father and never did he ask for worship. He directed all worship to his God. (Luke 4:8) He is not, and never was part of a triune godhead. This is a Catholic teaching, not something that Christ or his apostles taught.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6....."For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (ESV)

There is only "one God"..."THE FATHER"...the apostles never taught anything else.

Can you please explain how the Son is neither God, nor an angel, nor a mere man? I guess the issue I have with JW theology is that Jesus is an example we follow to earn salvation (did I get that correct)?

Jesus is a divine son of God who is above every other being except his Father. He became a man so that he could offer a ransom for the human race, who were taken captive by sin and death through no fault on their part. He is the means by which we gain forgiveness of our sins and a release from our captive state. The ransom has been paid and now we are just waiting to "go home"....back to the same situation that Adam and his wife lost...paradise conditions on earth.
The instruction given to them in the garden was to "fill the earth and subdue it"...think what that meant in the grand scheme of things. The whole earth was to be filled with humans, transforming the entire planet into something that resembled rhe garden of Eden. The means to sustain endless life was supplied in abundance, including "the tree of life"...something that guaranteed that they would live forever. After they sinned, God went to a lot of trouble to make sure they never gained access to that tree again. (Gen 3:22-24)

In order for the ransom to apply, it had to be an equivalent to what Adam lost. Jesus did not have to be God incarnate to offer his life as a ransom....all he needed to be was sinless...perfect, to buy back the perfect life that Adam lost for us.
It's a simple balancing of the scales of justice.

I believe rather we trust Jesus's substitutionary atonement to be saved. No one is perfect except Jesus, who is God Himself. We trust His death and resurrection and are saved!

Your statement above is true up to the point where you said "who is God Himself". Jesus never needed to be God to pay the ransom. This belief came from the apostasy that Jesus foretold. The devil sowed the seeds of this apostasy not long after Jesus died.....by the end of the first century it was already making inroads. By the 4th century it was ripe for a take-over. The trinity was introduced as a foundation doctrine of the Roman Carholic Church.....it is one of the most blasphemous teachings that came from this "falling away" from Christ's teachings. It places "Christians" in the position of substituting Christ in place of his Father as "God", not the divine son and messenger that he is. It is a breach of the first Commandment.

If you can appreciate when it began, you will see a completely different picture of what Christianty was at first, compared to what it is now....there is no resemblance. Just as the devil corrupted Judaism when Jesus walked the earth, so he has corrupted Christianity when Jesus is about to come again as judge.

Acts 3:13, 19-21...."The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him......Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago." (ESV)

The time for God's "servant" Jesus to 'restore all things' is very near. The paradise conditions that Adam and his wife lost will be restored to their children....each one tried and tested before being granted entry.
We must not be found by him caught in a religious system that is teaching blasphemies. (Rev 18:4, 5; 2 Pet 3:13)

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Jesus is "the righteousness of God" and the "image of God" so how does that help us via salvation?

Whether we argue as do JWs that only the 144,000 elect of God enter the kingdom of God or we see that all whom God approves of for life enter that kingdom there is one thought spoken by Jesus which applies to all: Matthew 5:20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." KJV

It is therefore that righteousness exhibited by Jesus which is our salvation. The scriptures say we are not saved by our works. That is because our works are not God's works. With our works we can never achieve God's righteousness. God's works are his righteousness and we are saved by submitting willingly to give ourselves to his righteousness to do the works of his righteousness. Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

The opposite of that is as follows: Matthew 3:10 "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Some excuse themselves to sin, telling themselves it is impossible not to in this life. But Jesus tells us, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." Matthew 7:18 Following that statement, Jesus continued on to say "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Matthew 7:19

Thus Jesus confirmed what John said at Matthew 3:10. And despite that being taught from the beginning that a tree cannot bear both good and bad fruit, or as James told us that a fountain does not give forth both sweet water and bitter water, despite this having been taught from the beginning many are being taught that they cannot defeat sin in this life, the affect of which is to fail to benefit from the righteousness of Christ which he brought into this world that we could know it and take it to heart and apply it.
1 John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Added: Compare: Matthew 12:33 "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit."

 

[BilliardsBall]

Whether we argue as do JWs that only the 144,000 elect of God enter the kingdom of God or we see that all whom God approves of for life enter that kingdom there is one thought spoken by Jesus which applies to all: Matthew 5:20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." KJV

It is therefore that righteousness exhibited by Jesus which is our salvation. The scriptures say we are not saved by our works. That is because our works are not God's works. With our works we can never achieve God's righteousness. God's works are his righteousness and we are saved by submitting willingly to give ourselves to his righteousness to do the works of his righteousness. Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

The opposite of that is as follows: Matthew 3:10 "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Some excuse themselves to sin, telling themselves it is impossible not to in this life. But Jesus tells us, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." Matthew 7:18 Following that statement, Jesus continued on to say "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Matthew 7:19

Thus Jesus confirmed what John said at Matthew 3:10. And despite that being taught from the beginning that a tree cannot bear both good and bad fruit, or as James told us that a fountain does not give forth both sweet water and bitter water, despite this having been taught from the beginning many are being taught that they cannot defeat sin in this life, the affect of which is to fail to benefit from the righteousness of Christ which he brought into this world that we could know it and take it to heart and apply it.
1 John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Added: Compare: Matthew 12:33 "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit."

Well said! Although I'd say I do good works as gratitude for salvation, not to maintain salvation. Both before and after salvation, I'm imperfect, so I need not only salvation, but final redemption when Jesus returns.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Jesus only ever said he was "God's son".....never once did he claim to be equal with his Father and never did he ask for worship. He directed all worship to his God. (Luke 4:8) He is not, and never was part of a triune godhead. This is a Catholic teaching, not something that Christ or his apostles taught.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6....."For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (ESV)

There is only "one God"..."THE FATHER"...the apostles never taught anything else.



Jesus is a divine son of God who is above every other being except his Father. He became a man so that he could offer a ransom for the human race, who were taken captive by sin and death through no fault on their part. He is the means by which we gain forgiveness of our sins and a release from our captive state. The ransom has been paid and now we are just waiting to "go home"....back to the same situation that Adam and his wife lost...paradise conditions on earth.
The instruction given to them in the garden was to "fill the earth and subdue it"...think what that meant in the grand scheme of things. The whole earth was to be filled with humans, transforming the entire planet into something that resembled rhe garden of Eden. The means to sustain endless life was supplied in abundance, including "the tree of life"...something that guaranteed that they would live forever. After they sinned, God went to a lot of trouble to make sure they never gained access to that tree again. (Gen 3:22-24)

In order for the ransom to apply, it had to be an equivalent to what Adam lost. Jesus did not have to be God incarnate to offer his life as a ransom....all he needed to be was sinless...perfect, to buy back the perfect life that Adam lost for us.
It's a simple balancing of the scales of justice.



Your statement above is true up to the point where you said "who is God Himself". Jesus never needed to be God to pay the ransom. This belief came from the apostasy that Jesus foretold. The devil sowed the seeds of this apostasy not long after Jesus died.....by the end of the first century it was already making inroads. By the 4th century it was ripe for a take-over. The trinity was introduced as a foundation doctrine of the Roman Carholic Church.....it is one of the most blasphemous teachings that came from this "falling away" from Christ's teachings. It places "Christians" in the position of substituting Christ in place of his Father as "God", not the divine son and messenger that he is. It is a breach of the first Commandment.

If you can appreciate when it began, you will see a completely different picture of what Christianty was at first, compared to what it is now....there is no resemblance. Just as the devil corrupted Judaism when Jesus walked the earth, so he has corrupted Christianity when Jesus is about to come again as judge.

Acts 3:13, 19-21...."The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him......Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago." (ESV)

The time for God's "servant" Jesus to 'restore all things' is very near. The paradise conditions that Adam and his wife lost will be restored to their children....each one tried and tested before being granted entry.
We must not be found by him caught in a religious system that is teaching blasphemies. (Rev 18:4, 5; 2 Pet 3:13)

Now if we can get traction on how it is that the Son is neither God, nor an angel, nor a mere man but something else, which my friend doesn't seem to wish to tell us what Jesus is... I do not know the current line of thinking here by the Witnesses. I'm honestly asking!

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Now if we can get traction on how it is that the Son is neither God, nor an angel, nor a mere man but something else, which my friend doesn't seem to wish to tell us what Jesus is... I do not know the current line of thinking here by the Witnesses. I'm honestly asking!

We must see the image of the heavenly things just as God designed them. As I have previously said in my quoting from Paul, Adam was created in the image of God the Father and therefore was the antitypical representation of God the Father in the flesh of man. Eve was made the glory of Adam and therefore was the antitypical representation of the spirit creature who was the Son of God in heaven who later came in the flesh as Jesus the man, the Christ and human Son of the living God taking the place of the fallen Adam who though being the antitypical representation of God to the flesh was himself the Son of God ("the" as in the first [in this case, human] Son of God; compare Luke 3:38).

Paul shows us this antitypical representation, here, as follows: 1 Corinthians 11:7 "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man." (James reinforces what Paul told us: James 3:9 "Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God." Yet we know that men cannot be God. Men can only be sons to God.)

Matthew 16:16 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Note that Peter did not say that Jesus was the one who would come to be in a future tense, "the Son of the living God", but Peter said that right there and then in the flesh long before his death Jesus was, "the Son of the living God."

Why was Jesus right then and there in the flesh, as witnessed both by the Holy Spirit speaking from heaven at his baptism and by Peter, chosen of God as being the Son of God right then and there in the flesh? The importance to us is not about heaven but is about our need for a replcement for the Son of God we lost in the flesh by Adam's choice to sin.


Here is where the possible root of confusion lays: 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

My questions for everyone are: (1) 'When was it that Jesus, "was made a quickening spirit"? (2) When it says, "a quickening spirit", is it referring to Jesus new body type as a resurrected spirit creature returned to God's heaven above? Or, is it referring to the lingering legacy (a legacy is a spirtual force left over after a man's death)?

This is my point in speaking of the righteousness of God exhibited to us in the life of Christ as being our salvation. I believe that to be what 1 John 1:1 refers to as, "we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.."

The quickening spirit of that life cannot be killed by wicked men though they do indeed try to kill it. That quickening spirit continues to live on as the legacy of the life which was Jesus the Son of God, the righteousness of God living and walking in the flesh so that we can yet find and see and handle the living Word of Life so as to be quickened by it.


At 1 Corinthians 15:45 the comparison is to how the first Adam began as the first Son of God in the flesh, compared to how we see Jesus was declared the Son of God with power right then and there at his baptism and proven thereafter in the miricles he worked of God.

I see JayJayDee as applying 1 Corinthians 15:45 only to Jesus in heaven, after his resurrection. And I know that it was his death which brought his legacy in the flesh to life as that quickening spirit. But that yet living legacy in the flesh that is Jesus is not the spirit bodied creature in heaven. It is the spirit of the man Jesus living on in this earth. And that is important because it is the righteousness of that man who walked God's righteousness for us in the flesh that has the quickening power if we would commit to emulate that spirit in our heart mind and soul.

 

[JayJayDee]

Now if we can get traction on how it is that the Son is neither God, nor an angel, nor a mere man but something else, which my friend doesn't seem to wish to tell us what Jesus is... I do not know the current line of thinking here by the Witnesses. I'm honestly asking!

And I have answered you. Your confusion comes from trying to squeeze Jesus into a false dichotomy. Christendom invented the Jesus of which you speak. This is NOT the Jesus that the Bible presents. If you understand that, you have to put down what Christendom has promoted and actually read your Bible. Nowhere will you find Jesus described as Almighty God...just an angel....or merely a man. He is a divine being unlike any other. He is the first and only direct creation of his God. (Rev 3:12, 14) The other angels, as well as all other things, were brought into existence "through" him. (Col 1:15, 16) He is not the Creator, but the agency through which creation was produced. He worked alongside his Father in fashioning what God had created from nothing. (Prov 8:22, 30, 31)

He also had to be like no other human because a sinless life had to be offered in order to pay a ransom for the now sinful human race, descended from Adam. A perfect life had to be given for a perfect life in order to balance the scales of justice and release humanity from the grip of sin and death.

He is "THE son of God"...which means that of all the "sons of God", he has no equivalent....so he is not "just" an angel, but the Commander and Chief of all the angels. He is a servant of his God....he is not God nor is he a part of a godhead. The scriptures never teach this. Read the scriptures I have posted.

He became 100% mortal human when his life was transferred to the womb of a Jewish virgin so that he could be born as a descendant of Adam, in a specific family line, in order to pay a ransom for the release of Adam's children, held hostage because of the actions of three rebels.

When we try to fit Jesus into the mould created by Christendom, things become awfully complicated...they need not be.
His role is clearly stated and the results will be all that Jehovah intended. (Isa 55:11; Rev 21:2-5)

 

[JayJayDee]

At 1 Corinthians 15:45 the comparison is to how the first Adam began as the first Son of God in the flesh, compared to how we see Jesus was declared the Son of God with power right then and there at his baptism and proven thereafter in the miricles he worked of God.

1 Cor 15:45 explains how the life of Jesus corresponds to the life that Adam lost. The perfect mortal soul that was Adam was atoned for by the correspondingly perfect mortal soul that was Jesus.

I see JayJayDee as applying 1 Corinthians 15:45 only to Jesus in heaven, after his resurrection. And I know that it was his death which brought his legacy in the flesh to life as that quickening spirit.

What is a "quickening" spirit? Who uses language like that nowadays? Relying on the old KJV confuses people with archaic language that educates no one. Please refer to Strongs G2227 and see how this word is translated in other verses, in modern English translations. It means "to give life" or to be "life-giving"...so please lose the archaic language so that readers using today's language can understand what you say. (1 Cor 14:8, 9)

But that yet living legacy in the flesh that is Jesus is not the spirit bodied creature in heaven. It is the spirit of the man Jesus living on in this earth. And that is important because it is the righteousness of that man who walked God's righteousness for us in the flesh that has the quickening power if we would commit to emulate that spirit in our heart mind and soul.

Who is arguing with that? Jesus himself promised to "feed" his household by means of his "slave" on earth. This is tied in with the expectation of the "coming" of the Lord. (Matt 24:36-47) That "faithful and wise slave" was to be appointed over all Christ's belongings, so unless we are "fed" by "him", we are spiritually malnourished...or even dead....yet we would not know it. If we have manufactured our own delusion and are happy in it, God will allow us to retain it. It is what we demonstrate is more meaningful to us than the truth. (2 Thess 2:8-12)

The Message that Jesus is having preached "in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" (Matt 24:14) was, for the most part, to fall on deaf ears. Why? Because people will believe what they want to believe, no matter even if the son of God spoke to them personally. Jesus proved this the first time he came to adjust religious attitudes. You think it can't happen again...? Jesus said it would. We are not told to feed ourselves because that is where division comes from. (1 Cor 1:10) Christendom is fractured into so many disunited pieces that when Christ comes as judge, he will be able to say to those churches "I NEVER knew you...get away from me you workers of lawlessness"! (Matt 7:21-23)

There is one united global brotherhood of Christ's disciples on earth, doing their best to obey all the commands of the Master. I can't see any others who even come close on that score....which is why I left Christendom a very long time ago. (Rev 18:4, 5) For me, there was nowhere else to go but to the one spiritual family whose teachings made any sense to me, and who were actually "doing" what Christ commanded.

 

[BilliardsBall]

And I have answered you. Your confusion comes from trying to squeeze Jesus into a false dichotomy. Christendom invented the Jesus of which you speak. This is NOT the Jesus that the Bible presents. If you understand that, you have to put down what Christendom has promoted and actually read your Bible. Nowhere will you find Jesus described as Almighty God...just an angel....or merely a man. He is a divine being unlike any other. He is the first and only direct creation of his God. (Rev 3:12, 14) The other angels, as well as all other things, were brought into existence "through" him. (Col 1:15, 16) He is not the Creator, but the agency through which creation was produced. He worked alongside his Father in fashioning what God had created from nothing. (Prov 8:22, 30, 31)

He also had to be like no other human because a sinless life had to be offered in order to pay a ransom for the now sinful human race, descended from Adam. A perfect life had to be given for a perfect life in order to balance the scales of justice and release humanity from the grip of sin and death.

He is "THE son of God"...which means that of all the "sons of God", he has no equivalent....so he is not "just" an angel, but the Commander and Chief of all the angels. He is a servant of his God....he is not God nor is he a part of a godhead. The scriptures never teach this. Read the scriptures I have posted.

He became 100% mortal human when his life was transferred to the womb of a Jewish virgin so that he could be born as a descendant of Adam, in a specific family line, in order to pay a ransom for the release of Adam's children, held hostage because of the actions of three rebels.

When we try to fit Jesus into the mould created by Christendom, things become awfully complicated...they need not be.
His role is clearly stated and the results will be all that Jehovah intended. (Isa 55:11; Rev 21:2-5)

1. Jesus is described in the Bible as God and almighty God. Isaiah 9 says unto us a child is born, literally the almighty God, that is the term in the Hebrew.

2. If "He is a diving being unlike any other" are you saying there is more than one God?

3. If He is divine, why would we miss the opportunity to pray to Him as well as to Jehovah God? Jesus said to ask for anything in Jesus's name...

 

[Mountain_Climber]

1. Jesus is described in the Bible as God and almighty God. Isaiah 9 says unto us a child is born, literally the almighty God, that is the term in the Hebrew.

2. If "He is a diving being unlike any other" are you saying there is more than one God?

3. If He is divine, why would we miss the opportunity to pray to Him as well as to Jehovah God? Jesus said to ask for anything in Jesus's name...

The answer to number 3 rests in whose will Jesus lives to do. Does Jesus exist to do our will? Or, does Jesus exist to do the Father's will?

The Father's name is Jehovah. But if we feel that connection to him as his child then there is nothing wrong with our addressing him as our Father.

And when Jesus taught us how to pray, as recorded for us at Matthew 6:9-13, how did he tell us we ought to pray? Addressing who?

If Jesus is to do as we ask, it must be first approved of the one whose will he lives to do.

 

[JayJayDee]

1. Jesus is described in the Bible as God and almighty God. Isaiah 9 says unto us a child is born, literally the almighty God, that is the term in the Hebrew.

Jesus is NEVER referred to as Almighty God. At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ʼEl Gib·bohrʹ, “Mighty God” (not ʼEl Shad·daiʹ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1).

Jesus is a divine "mighty one", second only to his God and Father in power and authority. Just as it says in Isaiah, he is also called "Prince of Peace". A prince is the son of a king and holds a position of prominence and honor second only to his father.....especially if he is the firstborn and heir to the throne.

2. If "He is a diving being unlike any other" are you saying there is more than one God?

The Bible itself says that there is more than one god (1 Cor 8:5, 6).....but it defines "ho theos" (THE God) as Jehovah.....the one Jesus himself identifies as "the only true God". (John 17:3) The "only" one Jesus said we should worship. (Luke 4:8) You are still defining Jesus by Christendom's definition of him. He does not and has NEVER held a position of equality with his Father, who is also his God, even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)

3. If He is divine, why would we miss the opportunity to pray to Him as well as to Jehovah God? Jesus said to ask for anything in Jesus's name...

Being divine doesn't mean that he is equal with his Creator. Jesus never asked us to pray to him. The Lord's Prayer is one that is parroted off in church every week, and yet no one seems to notice that Jesus is teaching us to pray to "our" God and Father who is also his God and Father. (John 20:17)

The Bible itself presents this simple truth....Jesus is "the son of God".....a unique son among many, who has no equal in creation. He is divine...but he is not the Almighty. It is blasphemous to teach otherwise. (Ex 20:3)

Those who refuse to recognise the truth about this important issue may well find themselves rejected by the appointed judge as "workers of lawlessness" when he comes for the accounting that we must all make. (Matt 7:21-23)

Hebrews 4:13..... "And nothing in creation is hidden from God’s sight, but everything is uncovered and exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give account." (Mounce Interlinear)

If we have been told the truth about this issue and we reject it, preferring to hold onto an erroneous view, and substituting the son for the Father, it will not go well with us.

Numbers 15:30-31.....“But the person who acts defiantly, whether native or foreign resident, blasphemes the Lord. That person is to be cut off from his people. He will certainly be cut off, because he has despised the Lord’s word and broken His command; his guilt remains on him.” (Holman)

Blasphemy carried the death penalty.

"Few" are on the road to life, according to Jesus and I think I can see why. (Matt 7:13, 14) This lie is swallowed by the majority and they refuse to see that it dishonours both the Father and his most trusted son. There is only one God...YHWH....the one that the Jews worshipped. As a Jew, you know that Israel did not serve a three headed god. (Deut 6:4) Why did you desert that God? Jesus never did.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The answer to number 3 rests in whose will Jesus lives to do. Does Jesus exist to do our will? Or, does Jesus exist to do the Father's will?

The Father's name is Jehovah. But if we feel that connection to him as his child then there is nothing wrong with our addressing him as our Father.

And when Jesus taught us how to pray, as recorded for us at Matthew 6:9-13, how did he tell us we ought to pray? Addressing who?

If Jesus is to do as we ask, it must be first approved of the one whose will he lives to do.

Jesus commanded us in Matthew 28 to baptize in the name of the Father AND OF the Son and Spirit... Jehovah.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Jesus is NEVER referred to as Almighty God. At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ʼEl Gib·bohrʹ, “Mighty God” (not ʼEl Shad·daiʹ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1).

Jesus is a divine "mighty one", second only to his God and Father in power and authority. Just as it says in Isaiah, he is also called "Prince of Peace". A prince is the son of a king and holds a position of prominence and honor second only to his father.....especially if he is the firstborn and heir to the throne.



The Bible itself says that there is more than one god (1 Cor 8:5, 6).....but it defines "ho theos" (THE God) as Jehovah.....the one Jesus himself identifies as "the only true God". (John 17:3) The "only" one Jesus said we should worship. (Luke 4:8) You are still defining Jesus by Christendom's definition of him. He does not and has NEVER held a position of equality with his Father, who is also his God, even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)



Being divine doesn't mean that he is equal with his Creator. Jesus never asked us to pray to him. The Lord's Prayer is one that is parroted off in church every week, and yet no one seems to notice that Jesus is teaching us to pray to "our" God and Father who is also his God and Father. (John 20:17)

The Bible itself presents this simple truth....Jesus is "the son of God".....a unique son among many, who has no equal in creation. He is divine...but he is not the Almighty. It is blasphemous to teach otherwise. (Ex 20:3)

Those who refuse to recognise the truth about this important issue may well find themselves rejected by the appointed judge as "workers of lawlessness" when he comes for the accounting that we must all make. (Matt 7:21-23)

Hebrews 4:13..... "And nothing in creation is hidden from God’s sight, but everything is uncovered and exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give account." (Mounce Interlinear)

If we have been told the truth about this issue and we reject it, preferring to hold onto an erroneous view, and substituting the son for the Father, it will not go well with us.

Numbers 15:30-31.....“But the person who acts defiantly, whether native or foreign resident, blasphemes the Lord. That person is to be cut off from his people. He will certainly be cut off, because he has despised the Lord’s word and broken His command; his guilt remains on him.” (Holman)

Blasphemy carried the death penalty.

"Few" are on the road to life, according to Jesus and I think I can see why. (Matt 7:13, 14) This lie is swallowed by the majority and they refuse to see that it dishonours both the Father and his most trusted son. There is only one God...YHWH....the one that the Jews worshipped. As a Jew, you know that Israel did not serve a three headed god. (Deut 6:4) Why did you desert that God? Jesus never did.

Jesus is speaking in Revelation 1:8... I am the alpha and omega, the almighty...

...Jesus did indeed ask us to pray to the Father. How do you interpret John 14, where Jesus says:

And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

?

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Are you going to Heaven?

Why?

Are you perfect?

No one’s perfect. We’ve got a problem, don’t we? For which there is only one solution.

**********

Jesus Christ has done six vital things for us, took our sin, our guilt, our shame, received our punishment.

He died on the cross to pay for our sin and He rose from the dead forever.

There’s only one way that He tells us to go to Heaven, to place our trust in Christ, to trust in what He did: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish in Hell but have eternal life in Heaven."

Just like we trust a bus driver to take us without our effort to a destination, we trust in Christ, and know assuredly we are going to Heaven.

Would you like to place your trust in Christ right now? (If you were to talk to God, what would you say to Him?)

**********

Here's how I have been taught to understand the gospel/good news of salvation from Jesus. Does this match your understanding? Why or why not?

I have always been taught that he is my Heavenly Father. That helped me come to know him personally when I became a born again in 2000