How can Jesus have to genealogies?

[Sleeppy]

Mary is in the genealogy because Joseph had other wives. Because Jesus was born to Mary, not one of his other wives.

There are woman in Matthews genealogy of Jesus..

How do you know Joseph had other wives? Which in Matthew's genealogy are females, and how do you know?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Of course. But none of those originated from a Jew claiming to be the Jewish messiah, did they?

Don't get too caught up in your own folklore.

 

[1137]

Do you know more prophecies than the ones you mentioned earlier? Or would you like to talk about those I've already addressed for you?

Alright, I have bolded, underlined, and italicized all three that you could argue Jesus accomplished, which we can note many others have accomplished as well. Go for it.

• Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[9] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
• The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
• He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
• The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
• Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
• He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
• All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
• Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
• He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
• Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
• The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[10]
• He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
• He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

 

[Awoon]

How do you know Joseph had other wives? Which in Matthew's genealogy are females, and how do you know?

Some men had more than one wife. Tamar, Judah's daughter in law is in the genealogy because Judah had sex with her and she had twin boys.

Solomon begat Booz of Rachab; Boaz begat Obed of Ruth, David begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias. Remember Bathsheba?

Four women are in the Matthew genealogy.

 

[Sleeppy]

Alright, I have bolded, underlined, and italicized all three that you could argue Jesus accomplished, which we can note many others have accomplished as well. Go for it.

• Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[9] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
• The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
• He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
• The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
• Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
• He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
• All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
• Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
• He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
• Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
• The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[10]
• He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
• He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

I'll need my laptop, but I can easily argue the majority of these.

 

[Sleeppy]

Alright, I have bolded, underlined, and italicized all three that you could argue Jesus accomplished, which we can note many others have accomplished as well. Go for it.

• Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City." Some Jews[9] interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established."(Isaiah 1:26)
• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
• The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
• He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
• The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
• Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
• He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
• All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
• Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
• He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
• Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
• The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[10]
• He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
• He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

I'll need my laptop, but I can easily argue the majority of these, if not all.

 

[Sleeppy]

Don't get too caught up in your own folklore.

You know it's best not to debate it then, friend?

 

[Sleeppy]

Some men had more than one wife. Tamar, Judah's daughter in law is in the genealogy because Judah had sex with her and she had twin boys.

Solomon begat Booz of Rachab; Boaz begat Obed of Ruth, David begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias. Remember Bathsheba?

Four women are in the Matthew genealogy.

I did not know that.. But I still maintain that Matthew's genealogy is Joseph's. How many women are in the genealogy of Luke?

 

[1137]

I'll need my laptop, but I can easily argue the majority of these.

Alright, you have fun arguing that the temple is rebuilt, that Jews are all in Israel, that there are no weapons, that Jewish opinion is the highest valued.

 

[Awoon]

I did not know that.. But I still maintain that Matthew's genealogy is Joseph's. How many women are in the genealogy of Luke?

None that I know. I just answered your statement that only men were in any genealogies.

 

[Sleeppy]

Alright, you have fun arguing that the temple is rebuilt, that Jews are all in Israel, that there are no weapons, that Jewish opinion is the highest valued.

Are all Jews supposed to be in Israel before or after all of them are resurrected? I'll be back when I can use my laptop.

 

[Sleeppy]

None that I know. I just answered your statement that only men were in any genealogies.

Is this the first occurence?

 

[fallingblood]

Obviously not so clearly. To me, it looks different from any other genealogy. Instead of so and so begat, and so on.. we have 'Jesus... being... the son of Heli,' on to being the 'son of Adam,' on to being the 'son of God.' Joseph being the only one with that qualifier, 'as was supposed'.

Luke 3:23 states: Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

It clearly states that Jesus was thought to be the son of Joseph, and that Joseph was the son of Heli.

 

[Sleeppy]

Luke 3:23 states: Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

It clearly states that Jesus was thought to be the son of Joseph, and that Joseph was the son of Heli.

I'm past this argument, friend.

 

[fallingblood]

I'm past this argument, friend.

But you haven't actually explained it. Your last comment on it was fallacious.

 

[Sleeppy]

But you haven't actually explained it. Your last comment on it was fallacious.

You're saying that it goes through Joseph.. But it's not a typical genealogy. It attaches a qualifier to Joseph, continuing with Jesus being 'the son of' each listed father after Joseph. Provide me the reason I should read it some other way.

 

[fallingblood]

You're saying that it goes through Joseph.. But it's not a typical genealogy. It attaches a qualifier to Joseph, continuing with Jesus being 'the son of' each listed father after Joseph. Provide me the reason I should read it some other way.

Because it states that Joseph was the son of Heli. If you want to claim that it is saying that Jesus is the son of Heli, then the whole make up of the genealogy falls apart. If we skip over Joseph, and go straight to Heli, then we could also skip over others, as the same structure is used. Obviously, the term son of mean absolutely nothing if we can just skip over people.

Also, if you take out Joseph, then you have an additional "son of" statement to deal with. Because the verse reads, Jesus was the son of (a qualifier), Joseph, son of Heli. If Joseph is not the son of Heli, there is an additional son of that is not dealt with.

 

[Shermana]

Except that he was. Even if we assume that Jesus is literally the son of God, Jesus is still related to Joseph as Joseph would be his step-dad. Still a familial relationship.

However, the virgin birth is largely seen to be mythical by modern scholars.

Do you know of any modern scholars who are agreeing that the Virgin birth accounts are interpolated like how it was viewed by some in the early 1900s? I think the fact that Josephus's lineage is listed is compelling in itself that it was originally intended as the real father. We do see in the Gospel of Nicodemus (which likely corresponds to the very early known "Acts of Pilate) that Joseph was defended as the Real Father to a charge that Jesus was illegitimate. I'll have to look into just how "soundly" Taylor was refuted by Machen.

One of the obstacles standing in the way of the virgin birth as any more than a myth is the sparseness of its attestation in the New Testament. Only Matthew and Luke mention it (and even there, some early manuscripts of Luke imply the virgin birth is an interpolation into that gospel, while as Jane Schaberg shows in The Illegitimacy of Jesus, Matthew never really mentions a miraculous conception, only a providential one). But this doesn't bother McDowell who simply takes for granted a picture of a united "early church" who can be safely assumed all to have believed the same things. Thus if Luke mentions it, Jude must have believed it, too. This is merely a reflection of the fundamentalist dogma of the harmony of scripture.

*

Virgin birth: a defense

*Quote of a quote on Tektonics.

Re doubt over the integrity of Luke's account: This was the province of scholars early in the 20th century, such as Taylor's proposal in 1920, referred to (and soundly refuted) by Machen [JGM.VBC, 119-168]. Brown [REB.BMh, 301] tips his hat to the idea and lists a few scholars who hold it even in his time, although - and this is rather important - even the majority of these say that the verses were added by LUKE HIMSELF later on.

 

[Sleeppy]

Because it states that Joseph was the son of Heli. If you want to claim that it is saying that Jesus is the son of Heli, then the whole make up of the genealogy falls apart. If we skip over Joseph, and go straight to Heli, then we could also skip over others, as the same structure is used. Obviously, the term son of mean absolutely nothing if we can just skip over people.

Also, if you take out Joseph, then you have an additional "son of" statement to deal with. Because the verse reads, Jesus was the son of (a qualifier), Joseph, son of Heli. If Joseph is not the son of Heli, there is an additional son of that is not dealt with.

There is no additional 'son of' statement. If you skip over 'son of Joseph' with its qualifier, it still continues listing Jesus 'being.. the son of.. the son of.. the son of..' up to and passing David, ending with 'the son of God.' It really begins with Jesus, the Son of God, and ends the same way.

 

[gnostic]

You're saying that it goes through Joseph.. But it's not a typical genealogy. It attaches a qualifier to Joseph, continuing with Jesus being 'the son of' each listed father after Joseph. Provide me the reason I should read it some other way.

There is no additional 'son of' statement. If you skip over 'son of Joseph' with its qualifier, it still continues listing Jesus 'being.. the son of.. the son of.. the son of..' up to and passing David, ending with 'the son of God.' It really begins with Jesus, the Son of God, and ends the same way.

Man, you sure know how to twist words around, to suit your reasoning.

Just because your translation (YLT) don't include additional "son" of, except in parentheses, have you bother to look at other translations?

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,the son of Heli,

Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work. He was the son (as was thought) of Joseph son of Heli,

When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli,

In the English language, like the KJV, for instance, when you say "which", as in "Joseph, which was the son of Heli", then the name (in this case Joseph) followed by "which", and the rest "was the son of Heli", actually indicated that the Joseph was Heli's son.

In the other translations of that verses (NIV, NRSV, NASB), there is no word "which", but following every names are comma, follow by "son of", indicating the next name to be the father, like "Joseph, son of Heli". is an indication also that Heli was Joseph's father.

In all these translations, including this YLT of yours, are saying that:

Jesus was supposedly Joseph's son,
Joseph was Heli's son,
Heli was Matthat's son, etc, etc, etc
​

It doesn't mean what you're suggesting (even with YLT):

Jesus was supposedly Joseph's son,
Jesus was Heli's son,
Jesus was Matthat's son, etc, etc, etc
​

And nothing in this genealogy of Luke, even remotely suggest that Mary was Heli's daughter...well, nothing beyond your twisted interpretation or twisted reasoning.

This is what I find so damn irritating with some Christians (not all Christians are the same, as clearly be seen with fallingblood disagreement with your interpretation), they can manipulate the scriptures in an attempt to reconcile the differences between 2 genealogies, as if your interpretation is the only one that are right.

If you can't read ancient Greek, as the gospel was written in, then why didn't you compare various translations to better understand the verse, instead of relying on one translation?