How Can Anyone Not Accept This Biblical Prophecy as Real?

[beenherebeforeagain]

Didn't intend to, thought people would read the OP to find out the premise of the title.

Plus don't see all Biblical prophecy as accurate, that would be a silly statement.

That single prophecy is seen repeated many times, and if people even understood that simple concept, they might be able to be educated about all the other issues; yet whilst they remain ignorant on something so simple, then there isn't much point explaining the complexities.

They're not an accurate representation, same as in any court case, there are witnesses that have shoddy accounts; yet due to having multiple witnesses suggesting similar events, we can piece together a case.

Can show numerous errors within the testimonies; yet it doesn't mean some of the things stated haven't happened.

Evidence doesn't need a standard, it is just evidence, each piece can be examined for its perspective, its content, and its fallacies.

The conclusions are based on evidence in the real world that the majority of Christianity follows the lies, showing that the text has been fulfilled in multiple places, that the world will be deceived.

Of course evidence has standards: a videotape of a crime is much more reliable than eyewitnesses who were surprised and frightened the sudden, brief armed robbery as just one example. Fingerprints on the gun that was used, and so on. Yes there are standards, and research in criminal science and psychology shows that eyewitnesses are just plain unreliable.

Your multiple witnesses, that is, the synoptic gospels, they are not, as far as I'm aware of, accepted by any reputable scholars as being independent of each other. Matthew and Luke are derived from Mark, and all three probably draw on at least one prior gospel.

Again, if they are eyewitnesses, they are pretty poor one, and they cannot now be cross-examined or have any of their stories otherwise validated by other eyewitnesses. I mean really, according to the Book, Tens of Thousands followed Jesus around the Holy Land for three years...and yet, only three gospel accounts, four if you're generous and include John, and more if you include the various other gospels and acts stories that have been identified and recovered.

If you want me to believe YOU, then show me the evidence that the three are entirely independent of each other.

Oh, but wait, you admit that even those gospels have some things wrong...

So we're back to the fact that your pet prophecy doesn't stand up to some very basic reasoned standards for validity. What is the basis that you accept THIS PARTICULAR prophecy, but pass on others?

Again:
Is it true or accurate? You have asserted that most of Christianity and Islam is wrong and misguided, but your position is little different than a myriad other schismatic sects. It is an assertion that is true in the most banal of senses.

Is it in the Bible? Yes, you cited the texts. Of course, translations differ...

Is it precise and unambiguous? No, it gives no dates, no names, nothing by which one could identify JUST FROM THE PROPHECY which is the right way and which are the wrong. Instead, you have to build up a case from textual analysis, which you really haven't proven even at that.

Is it improbable? No, it is very likely that any tradition would fracture, and that the leaders of any and every group would insist that they have the true way, and all others are wrong.

Was the prophecy (outcome of a battle, death of a king, or in this case, schisms among the believers, with most following the wrong tradition) unknown at the time of writing? Only in the most mundane sense, as the prophecy is not specific about details like when, who, which, how, and so on.

So, you've got one out of five, and not even the most compelling of those...

And you're surprised that there are people don't accept this prophecy as real? That in fact, MOST PEOPLE don't?

 

[eldios]

I appreciate your opinion and agree. But we can move into 'seeing' in John's gospel. There are four uses of 'come and see'
1. unnamed disciple (could be beloved disciple) and Andrew answer Jesus' call to 'come and see'. John the Baptist just named him 'Lamb of God'. Jesus' statement followed the asking 'where are you staying'.
2. Philip gathers Nathanael to 'come and see'. Philip takes Nathanael to Jesus, Jesus sees Nathanael 'under fig tree', calls him 'an Israelite without guile', Nathanael calls Jesus 'Rabbi', 'Son of God', 'King of Israel'
3. Samaritan woman to her people: 'come, see' and takes them to Jesus. This was the Jews greatest enemy in Samaritan. She identifies Jesus as 'prophet', 'the Messiah', Jesus tells her 'I who speak to you am he.' (I am, you, he, she). There is no collective on one level. He indicates 'God worshipped in spirit and truth'. (a point of reconciliation between Jews and Jerusalem and Samaritans and Mount Gerizim)
4. Mary and the Jews call Jesus to 'come and see'. Lazarus is raised from the dead.

Either this is interesting to one or not. If I receive no response, I will stop with this information. To me, it is very interesting. and how, does it reconcile with other gospel accounts? The point is do not throw out the Bible because you see others using it in their way. Do not judge them too harshly. Yet find in it great solace and beauty. You can search for prophesy that is violent and divisive, signaling the end or search for more uplifting content.

Yet can we see God? in the book of Genesis Jacob tells his estranged brother Esau (that is the lineage of Jews and Muslims simplified), 'seeing your face is like seeing the face of God' but they separate. What does this mean?

It's all about the INVISIBLE energy at work but that is not a good indicator of whether or not you're being used in this millennium reign of Christ as a servant who is testifying to the knowledge of God called Christ. I haven't met a Christian yet who knows the millennium reign of Christ started over 2,000 years ago and ended in December of 2016 with the revelation of what the Truth ( Tree of Life ) is and how it was created.

Isn't it more interesting to learn what the source of Life is instead of wondering what "come and see" means?

 

[wizanda]

bat **** crazy source

If you even went over it, and examined the evidence, it is by a professor correlating the data quoting multiple sources, to show the same findings.

Many criticize religious texts yet I cannot think of a better exercise than working with them.

I've examined many texts thoroughly, and can show much logic and reasoning within the Biblical texts; yet within this careful analysis certain texts do not fit, thus actually showing the world has been deceived already, as they're not aware of the theological difference between Pharisaic views (Christianity) and Christ.

Your multiple witnesses, that is, the synoptic gospels, they are not, as far as I'm aware of, accepted by any reputable scholars as being independent of each other. Matthew and Luke are derived from Mark, and all three probably draw on at least one prior gospel.

Using your logic since that is just made up, maybe the rest of what you're saying is also a lie.

Synoptic Gospels - Wikipedia

If you'd examined the texts for yourself over years of analysis of the sayings, then could possibly accept you knew what you're talking about; otherwise there isn't a case to say they're all copied.

eyewitnesses are just plain unreliable.

If all there is, is eye witness accounts, no logical person is going to chuck the whole case out.

If you want me to believe YOU, then show me the evidence that the three are entirely independent of each other.

Could spend years showing different Greek grammar and wording; yet just start by going over the Parable of the Wicked husbandmen in all 3 (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19), each includes slightly different data.

The idea isn't to believe me, it is to examine the evidence that you're busy trying to throw away.

What is the basis that you accept THIS PARTICULAR prophecy, but pass on others?

Personally don't have that illogical methodology, I'd never dismiss any prophecy or concept before seeing what happens.

In my mind everything stays as variables until more information comes along; finding a lot of people illogical as they insist on having a Boolean answer, when it isn't always possible.

You have asserted that most of Christianity and Islam is wrong and misguided, but your position is little different than a myriad other schismatic sects.

You don't really know my position or the depths of explanation on each specific item or the extent of textual references on this topic, only started on a very simple basic point, and so far you've just tried to remove all evidence to not look at the case.

Though do agree, if what was being put forward by me was dealt with by religious people, we'd create a new religion.

Yes, you cited the texts. Of course, translations differ...

The text was first documented in ancient Greek; thus if someone was only looking at a translation, they'd be missing lots of points within the evidence.

it gives no dates

Individually the concept of "Ego I-mee" being falsely assigned to Yeshua doesn't have those specifications; yet on understanding that, we could move on to all the correlative prophecies, across all the prophets globally.

nothing by which one could identify JUST FROM THE PROPHECY which is the right way and which are the wrong.

The prophecy is spoken by someone who stated, those who follow all his teachings, the Commandments, and prophets are heading in the right direction.

it is very likely that any tradition would fracture

unfortunately this might be my fault, as we're only dealing with one very simple point, and not the massive contextual specifications of the Great Deception...

The idea that the majority of Christ's followers are not following him, and instead the Pharisees John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros), isn't a small break away group, it has covered the whole world.

And you're surprised that there are people don't accept this prophecy as real?

When here is the top floor of Hell, where everyone is illogical in someway shape or form; thus I'm not surprised anymore, it makes sense.

 

[Desert Snake]

Fair enough some of the things are really ambiguous to discern, and are not very clear....

Yet when all 3 Synoptic Gospels (Luke 21:8, Mark 13:5-6, Matthew 24:4-5) tell you the way the world will be deceived, is by those that come after Yeshua claiming to be him using "Ego I-mee" (I Am).

Then this is so blatant that the Gospel of John is made up, as it repeatedly (x7+1) uses 'Ego I-mee' as if Yeshua spoke that way, trying to make him seem like he was claiming to be God.

Many Christians perceive jesus is god because of the made up texts, the whole world has blatantly been deceived as specified, and because people listen to those deceived by said made up texts, everyone is seeing it as a joke, when it can be physically seen in the world that it has happened.

So why do people not question it outside of the religious confusions; how can people opposed to Abrahamic beliefs not take it a bit more seriously to point out the lack of discernment?

How come something so simple, and blatant can be missed by so many?

Yoheshua/yeshua, isnt that in the name you actually call him?
Doesnt mean the ego here

 

[wizanda]

Yoheshua/yeshua, isnt that in the name you actually call him?

Call him Yeshua for the Synoptic Gospels, and 'jesus' within Paul, John, and Simon's Christianity.

Doesnt mean the ego here

It is the Ancient Greek for 'self', 'I', etc.

 

[Desert Snake]

Call him Yeshua for the Synoptic Gospels, and 'jesus' within Paul, John, and Simon's Christianity.

It is the Ancient Greek for 'self', 'I', etc.

Not noticing a problem here, sorry.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

If you even went over it, and examined the evidence, it is by a professor correlating the data quoting multiple sources, to show the same findings.

I've examined many texts thoroughly, and can show much logic and reasoning within the Biblical texts; yet within this careful analysis certain texts do not fit, thus actually showing the world has been deceived already, as they're not aware of the theological difference between Pharisaic views (Christianity) and Christ.

Using your logic since that is just made up, maybe the rest of what you're saying is also a lie.

Synoptic Gospels - Wikipedia

If you'd examined the texts for yourself over years of analysis of the sayings, then could possibly accept you knew what you're talking about; otherwise there isn't a case to say they're all copied.

If all there is, is eye witness accounts, no logical person is going to chuck the whole case out.

Could spend years showing different Greek grammar and wording; yet just start by going over the Parable of the Wicked husbandmen in all 3 (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19), each includes slightly different data.

The idea isn't to believe me, it is to examine the evidence that you're busy trying to throw away.

Personally don't have that illogical methodology, I'd never dismiss any prophecy or concept before seeing what happens.

In my mind everything stays as variables until more information comes along; finding a lot of people illogical as they insist on having a Boolean answer, when it isn't always possible.

You don't really know my position or the depths of explanation on each specific item or the extent of textual references on this topic, only started on a very simple basic point, and so far you've just tried to remove all evidence to not look at the case.

Though do agree, if what was being put forward by me was dealt with by religious people, we'd create a new religion.

The text was first documented in ancient Greek; thus if someone was only looking at a translation, they'd be missing lots of points within the evidence.

Individually the concept of "Ego I-mee" being falsely assigned to Yeshua doesn't have those specifications; yet on understanding that, we could move on to all the correlative prophecies, across all the prophets globally.

The prophecy is spoken by someone who stated, those who follow all his teachings, the Commandments, and prophets are heading in the right direction.

unfortunately this might be my fault, as we're only dealing with one very simple point, and not the massive contextual specifications of the Great Deception...

The idea that the majority of Christ's followers are not following him, and instead the Pharisees John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros), isn't a small break away group, it has covered the whole world.

When here is the top floor of Hell, where everyone is illogical in someway shape or form; thus I'm not surprised anymore, it makes sense.

Even if that source material was 100% incontrovertible, you would still need QUITE the imagination to connect this with any so called Bible prophecies.

 

[wizanda]

Even if that source material was 100% incontrovertible, you would still need QUITE the imagination to connect this with any so called Bible prophecies.

Matthew 24:22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath came, as did the time for the dead to be judged, and to give your bondservants the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints, and those who fear your name, to the small and the great; and to destroy those who destroy the earth.

The prophecies are not that God comes to destroy, yet to defend, as we're going to start WW3 with Jerusalem at its center, and we're already on the way to wiping our self out.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Matthew 24:22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath came, as did the time for the dead to be judged, and to give your bondservants the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints, and those who fear your name, to the small and the great; and to destroy those who destroy the earth.

The prophecies are not that God comes to destroy, yet to defend, as we're going to start WW3 with Jerusalem at its center, and we're already on the way to wiping our self out.

Yes, as I said. Quite the imagination.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When has there not been schizophrenic and psychotic people running around telling people they are gods, messiah's, and prophets? If you ask me, Paul's little incident of seeing a light and hearing a voice on his way to Damascus makes me very suspicious he had nothing less than psychotic tendencies.

 

[wizanda]

Quite the imagination.

The text stipulated these ideas.

Paul's little incident of seeing a light and hearing a voice on his way to Damascus makes me very suspicious he had nothing less than psychotic tendencies.

It could be possible; it could also be more possible he made it all up to infiltrate the Followers of the Way, and replace it with another form of Pharisaic Judaism, which we can show by his teachings.

When has there not been schizophrenic and psychotic people running around telling people they are gods, messiah's, and prophets?

They're not really schizophrenics, if the things they've been told happen in real life as expected.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It could be possible; it could also be more possible he made it all up to infiltrate the Followers of the Way, and replace it with another form of Pharisaic Judaism, which we can show by his teachings.

Could be.

They're not really schizophrenics, if the things they've been told happen in real life as expected.

The guy I know who has the worst case of schizophrenia I've encountered, he often can't discern between reality and his delusions. Whether it's being abducted by a gang from Chicago and beat up and tied up and left for dead, battling with angels while in jail, or being king of the world with thousands of children, and sometimes these things play out as expected - such as having bruises, obviously not from angels but from struggling against hospital and jail staff, but these bruises confirmed his battle against angels to him. He also thinks smoking spice is good for him and keeps him healthy, and from his perspective it is.

 

[Muffled]

Fair enough some of the things are really ambiguous to discern, and are not very clear....

Yet when all 3 Synoptic Gospels (Luke 21:8, Mark 13:5-6, Matthew 24:4-5) tell you the way the world will be deceived, is by those that come after Yeshua claiming to be him using "Ego I-mee" (I Am).

Then this is so blatant that the Gospel of John is made up, as it repeatedly (x7+1) uses 'Ego I-mee' as if Yeshua spoke that way, trying to make him seem like he was claiming to be God.

Many Christians perceive jesus is god because of the made up texts, the whole world has blatantly been deceived as specified, and because people listen to those deceived by said made up texts, everyone is seeing it as a joke, when it can be physically seen in the world that it has happened.

So why do people not question it outside of the religious confusions; how can people opposed to Abrahamic beliefs not take it a bit more seriously to point out the lack of discernment?

How come something so simple, and blatant can be missed by so many?

I believe this is the inconsistency that refutes the logic.

I do believe you are confused. The context is that of where to look for Jesus. It isn't the claim that invalidates itself but the place the claim is made that invalidates the claim.

 

[Muffled]

It's all about the INVISIBLE energy at work but that is not a good indicator of whether or not you're being used in this millennium reign of Christ as a servant who is testifying to the knowledge of God called Christ. I haven't met a Christian yet who knows the millennium reign of Christ started over 2,000 years ago and ended in December of 2016 with the revelation of what the Truth ( Tree of Life ) is and how it was created.

Isn't it more interesting to learn what the source of Life is instead of wondering what "come and see" means?

I believe it is best not to pay too much attention to false doctrine.

 

[eldios]

I believe it is best not to pay too much attention to false doctrine.

Then you should never listen to false prophets who have never heard the voice of God speaking commands directly into their minds to get them to confess and repent of their sins. If they haven't been justified and then glorified, they are not to be trusted as servants of God who testify to His knowledge called Christ. If they don't understand what the beast is and why it was created, then run away from them.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Didn't intend to, thought people would read the OP to find out the premise of the title.

And people did (or thought they did). It's understandable that people thought you were using that one prophecy to try to prove all others in the Bible because that's the way you worded the title. It's not as if we can see your thought processes, remember?

 

[wizanda]

It's not as if we can see your thought processes, remember?

This is why normally try to cover everyone's illogical thought processes before proceeding; as used to everyone getting discombobulated by their own ideas supplanting what is being said:

Fair enough some of the things are really ambiguous to discern, and are not very clear....

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I came across these criteria for a valid prophecy a while back. I think they're very reasonable:

Criteria for a true prophecy
For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical foreknowledge definitionally can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies#Criteria_for_a_true_prophecy

Do you know of a Biblical prophecy that meets all of these criteria? I don't.

Only science meets those criteria (see below).

I've seen similar lists, some with a few other criteria:

The prophecy cannot be self-fulfilling.
The prophecy must definitely have preceded the prophesied event
The prophecy should not be accompanied by failed prophecy.

============

Some of science's prophecies:

[1] Einstein prophesied the bending of light grazing past the sun. Such was the confidence in the priests of science that a fleet of ships was sent to various locations around the world to confirm the prophecy in 1919. It made headlines. May 29, 1919: A Major Eclipse, Relatively Speaking

[2] Twenty-five years later, the scientists did it again. "Quantum electrodynamics (QED) is the study of how electrons and photons interact ... The predictions of QED regarding the scattering of photons and electrons are accurate to eleven decimal places." How Quantum Physics Explains the Invisible Universe

[3] You can read about the prophecy of the cosmic microwave background and see the same thing. The priests of science predicted the existence of previously unsuspected radiation pervading the universe in an incredibly uniform way, and predicted it's precise temperature and wavelength, also later confirmed Cosmic microwave background - Wikipedia

How about a standing ovation for scientific prophecy and the scientists at CERN that found the Higgs particle? The scientific prophets told us EXACTLY where to look (at what energy and under what conditions) and EXACTLY what we would find there (the particle's mass, charge, spin, and parity). The physicists said, "Examine matter at that very high energy, and if we're right about reality, you'll find Higgs."

Based on science's excellent reputation at prophecy, billions were allocated to look for the Higgs particle, with which the scientists built a fine machine - CERN's Large Hadron Collider - to look where man had never looked before except in his rich imagination. [4] And lo and behold! A particle was born. Higgs! The prophets were correct again.

Biblical prophecy just can't compete with that, all of which meets the criteria outlined above..

As Sagan told us,

"Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability of science?"

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

No, not at all. I have read the Bible and it is obviously a work of fiction written by stone age men. I find very little in it that I would call a 'fact'.

And I'd dare say that that which you'd call fact you do so not because it appears in the Bible, but because it has been confirmed by a different source.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

God is totally invisible to human beings.

Even more so than Santa, who can be seen at the mall at Christmas.

What does that tell you about what should be the most obvious and prominent aspect of reality were it true?