How Can Anyone Not Accept This Biblical Prophecy as Real?

[columbus]

Yet the testimonies of Yeshua interlink with the Tanakh very precisely,

There are no testimonies of Jesus!*

As long as you keep the demonstrably false belief that there are testimonies from Jesus there isn't much point in discussing this with you.
Tom
*I have been willing to respect you by using your transliteration de jure of Jesus' name. But I am kinda over it. In 21st century English speaking world He is Jesus. Get over yourself.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Okay, to summarize:

1) You had an NDE, in which you met Jesus, and he told you stuff...and maybe is still telling you stuff.

2) You have done some research and reached conclusions, such that you accept some passages in the Bible as "true" and the rest is "false"

3) You're not completely familiar with all the passages in the Bible, nor with the existing scholarship and sectarian interpretations/understandings

4) based on this personal revelation, and the subsequent research you have conducted, you have reached the conclusion that a particular prophecy, repeated in somewhat different words in three related sources in the Bible is true

5) The particular prophecy you started this thread about has to do with a massive conspiracy theory, in which you (perhaps alone among the nearly 8 billion people on earth) are aware of because you had a revelation during a NDE and have done some research and thinking about it.

6) this conspiracy theory has it that some passages in the New Testament are valid, but others are part of this great deception, which is intended to keep most people from knowing the truth and therefore being on the right path with Jesus and God.

7) So far, you haven't shown that this prophecy meets any basic standards of evidence that you seem apply to any of the other passages that you think are false, but refuse to state clearly what they are. You also ignore that other people DO have standards on which to judge the prophecy from you OP, and have explained exactly what those standards are and how, to their minds, this particular prophecy fails. In fact, you have repeatedly called every one of these people "illogical."

8) you claim

Been trying to prove it wrong, and am entirely open to a reasonable explanation why... Just the arguments provided so far haven't over turned the case.

Yet you reject any and every reasonable explanation offered.

So, what exactly what kind of "reasonable explanation" would convince you that the prophecy in the OP should not be accepted as true?

 

[Jedster]

By the way, do you know what the most severe form of OCD is called?

Spoiler: answer here

CDO - the form where you have to alphabetize the letters in the name.

.

One of my old school friends could speak eghilns fluently.

 

[wizanda]

In 21st century English speaking world He is Jesus.

Yeshua means salvation in Hebrew; Je-sus means Lord (H3050) of the beasts (H5483)... There are many aspects to the whole world has been deceived to follow a lie.

As long as you keep the demonstrably false belief that there are testimonies from Jesus

We've got no way to establish they're not testimonies, so i don't mind if you want to quit; trying to convince someone that something is what it says it is, is a bit silly.

Okay, to summarize:

That isn't a summary, it is many assumptions.

You had an NDE, in which you met Jesus, and he told you stuff

The NDE confirmed what I've always known.

people "illogical."

There is illogical thinking; do always try not to accuse people individually.

You're not completely familiar with all the passages in the Bible

Know a vast amount of prophecy off by heart... Spent over 13 years relaying said information.

nor with the existing scholarship and sectarian interpretations/understandings

We're in a world where everyone has been deceived in someway, scholars have contributed considerably to the lack of knowledge; though always interested in assessing people's opinions.

such that you accept some passages in the Bible as "true" and the rest is "false"

Systematically based on dissection of the text, certain authors contradict the fundamentals found in the Law, prophets, and Yeshua directly; each can be substantiated based on evidence.

this conspiracy theory has it that some passages in the New Testament are valid, but others are part of this great deception

John is written by the Sanhedrin, Paul was a Pharisee infiltrator, and Simon the stone (petros) was called that by Yeshua to fulfill prophecy; it isn't my conspiracy, it was expected to happen as stated.

which is intended to keep most people from knowing the truth and therefore being on the right path with Jesus and God.

The people who believe by murdering an angel, they can get closer to God, proves without a shadow of doubt there are faulty moral standards here; which is where we can establish here is near Hell...

As only near Hell could demons say it is right to murder God's messengers, and then claim it makes you a better person for believing it.

So, what exactly what kind of "reasonable explanation" would convince you that the prophecy in the OP should not be accepted as true?

Thank you for the question, always normally can win the polemic argument; unfortunately on this can't actually argue the case against it...

Not sure how to overturn it anymore based on all the evidence.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

We're in a world where everyone has been deceived in someway,

Amazingly enough, apparently NOT including you...

Not sure how to overturn it anymore based on all the evidence.

So, you can't see how it could possibly be overturned, because your evidence is so convincing...except, apparently, to many people posting in response...which, surprise surprise means that they are being misled just like all the billions in the world except for you, in confirmation of your favored interpretation and selected assumptions concerning facts...and yet, you ask, how could anyone NOT accept this as a true prophecy...



okay, I'm done playing your silly game. Shame on me for thinking that just perhaps you really were open-minded about this...

 

[columbus]

The NDE confirmed what I've always known.

That's what always seems to happen. That's why I don't find NDEs too convincing as evidence of anything but the delusional state of dying people.
Tom

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Fair enough some of the things are really ambiguous to discern, and are not very clear....

Yet when all 3 Synoptic Gospels (Luke 21:8, Mark 13:5-6, Matthew 24:4-5) tell you the way the world will be deceived, is by those that come after Yeshua claiming to be him using "Ego I-mee" (I Am).

Then this is so blatant that the Gospel of John is made up, as it repeatedly (x7+1) uses 'Ego I-mee' as if Yeshua spoke that way, trying to make him seem like he was claiming to be God.

Many Christians perceive jesus is god because of the made up texts, the whole world has blatantly been deceived as specified, and because people listen to those deceived by said made up texts, everyone is seeing it as a joke, when it can be physically seen in the world that it has happened.

So why do people not question it outside of the religious confusions; how can people opposed to Abrahamic beliefs not take it a bit more seriously to point out the lack of discernment?

How come something so simple, and blatant can be missed by so many?

Let us begin with something that ought to be just a little obvious: Of the synoptics, Mark was written first, and Matthew & Luke copied a lot of that material, as well as other material from "Q." It comes as little surprise (to me, at any rate) that something copied from somewhere might bear some similarities to the material copied from.

Second, a "prophecy" that talks to something well-understood about human nature is hardly a prophecy at all. Name me a very famous or very powerful or very charismatic figure from history -- and I can begin the search of all the people who after claimed to be, or to be descended from or otherwise closely associated with, him.

 

[wizanda]

Amazingly enough, apparently NOT including you...

Was convinced just the same to begin, that the Gospel of John was a legitimate text; then after recognizing numerous errors in character, phraseology, and theology, realized about the "Ego I-mee" warning, which thought was a simple introduction to recognizing the errors.

explained exactly what those standards are and how, to their minds, this particular prophecy fails.

The standards that are being applied, are that the evidence isn't worthy of examination...

Which imagine we're in a police investigation, and we only have this evidence; people claiming the evidence isn't worthy of making a case, when this is all we have, and we have to actually arrive at a decision, not throw away the evidence.

I'm done playing your silly game.

It isn't a silly game btw; was sent from Heaven, the NDE confirmed it, and the Tribulation is soon.

because your evidence is so convincing

We're dealing with one very simple point, and people have thrown away the whole book... Here are a start to contradictions between the Synoptic Gospels and John.

Guess really what saying, is trying to prove to myself that the world hasn't been convinced of a lie, and can be educated about it; as then the other things that was told as a child, are not going to happen, as prophesied in eschatology globally.

That's why I don't find NDEs too convincing as evidence of anything but the delusional state of dying people.

The NDE isn't the evidence, it just confirmed where i came from, and what was told at 5/6, 15, 22 years old, on having divine revelation about this whole topic; then spent years systematically assessing the texts globally, to confirm it is all documented as detailed.

Mark was written first, and Matthew & Luke copied a lot of that material, as well as other material from "Q."

There is no evidence for a Q source, as the Gospels don't copy each other, they're each worded, and include things entirely differently; if someone copied it would be far more precise.

Please read back through some of the thread, as gone over this concept multiple times already.

Second, a "prophecy" that talks to something well-understood about human nature is hardly a prophecy at all.

You are right; it is entirely likely that people will falsify texts after the original concept; it is also highly likely that they will deify messengers in someway, as it is also commonly done...

Yet to prophesy specifically a certain wording, beliefs, and concepts is more accurate, and then for the world to actually have followed it; the probability keeps increasing with each specification.

 

[HonestJoe]

The Christian text wasn't made up after Christianity came about....

Clearly it had to be made up before it; yet you'd think someone would notice the blatant contradictions, and people would have discerned it false, rather than them go along with the prophecies, proving many people are illogical.

The NT texts were purportedly written during or shortly after what was to become Christianity was developing and those texts have been extensively selected, translated, edited, interpreted and collated in the years since. How else would there be so many different versions and editions of “The Bible” today?

What we read today has been altered by many people with different intentions and different abilities (there’s no reason they couldn’t have inadvertently added contradictions when trying to twist texts to fit various prophecies after all). The bottom line is that we can’t rely on any of it as a source of what actually happened or what people actually said. On that basis, I don’t see how you can use any of that as a basis for specifically prophecy, especially ones you claim are fulfilled within the self-same texts.

Because there are many different authors within the same book, stemming over thousands of years, and they're all making specific predictions that have come to pass.

Except they haven’t. There is no prophecy anywhere that makes a clear and unconditional prediction of a specific set of events, definitively written and interpreted as such well prior to the predicted events that have then clearly been established as accurate.

What there are is a vast mix of metaphorical statements and spiritual rhetoric, much translated and interpreted which are much later taken by some people and retrofitted to apply to recent or current events. This phenomena is far from unique to the Christian Bible or religious texts in general, though it is a common element of them given that it can be a tool to convince people of the divinity or otherwise specialness of their scriptures above and beyond anyone else’s

To me that is a totally illogical way of looking at life in general; that is like saying because a politician tells some things that are truthful, everything they say must be true.

No, it’s like saying that because we know politicians are untrustworthy we have to check carefully when they make statements, claims and promises (and especially what other people claim they mean by those statements) rather than taking them at face value.

 

[wizanda]

How else would there be so many different versions and editions of “The Bible” today?

There are many translations, and different choices of book included within the cannon, not many different versions.

there’s no reason they couldn’t have inadvertently added contradictions when trying to twist texts to fit various prophecies after all

That is what has blatantly happened; they've made up John, Paul and peter's texts, and inadvertently created a monster as prophesied would occur.

On that basis, I don’t see how you can use any of that as a basis for specifically prophecy, especially ones you claim are fulfilled within the self-same texts.

The text doesn't prove it; the fact people follow it globally does.

The history proves that if the speech was even remotely close, the things happened as predicted in the Tanakh; the 2nd temple was destroyed, and Jews have been persecuted for the last two thousand years because of it.

The history is there, the comprehension of it isn't, as many do away with the evidence, to then be able to question if it was all foretold to the letter.

There is no prophecy anywhere that makes a clear and unconditional prediction of a specific set of events

Zechariah 11 says if they paid 30 pieces of silver for the price of the person sent, and put this in the Potters-field in the House of Israel, then the covenant would be ended, 2nd temple destroyed, and the people exiled....

Judas was given 30 pieces of silver, and was put into the Potters-field in the House of Israel; admit it could be all made up, yet a bit of a far stretch that most people are not even aware of the prophetic fulfillment.

we have to check carefully when they make statements, claims

OK so you've now systematically gone over the "Ego I-mee" (G1473 + G1510) statements within the NT, to establish if there is any merit to said claims?

 

[HonestJoe]

There are many translations, and different choices of book included within the cannon, not many different versions.

That’s just semantics and some are even called versions (e.g. NIV). The point is that there is no consistency and thus no reason to assume any part of any of them accurately describe true events (including any alleged prophecy).

The text doesn't prove it; the fact people follow it globally does.

But was the text created with the intention of fulfilling the prophecy? We simply can’t know for sure.

Zechariah 11 says if they paid 30 pieces of silver for the price of the person sent, and put this in the Potters-field in the House of Israel, then the covenant would be ended, 2nd temple destroyed, and the people exiled....

Judas was given 30 pieces of silver, and was put into the Potters-field in the House of Israel; admit it could be all made up, yet a bit of a far stretch that most people are not even aware of the prophetic fulfillment.

The people who wrote the NT will have known the OT stories and have a vested interest in establishing the divine link between them. Why wouldn’t they add false information to make their stories fit them? Even if it really happened, the people who chose how much to pay Judas and where to send him could well have known and been intentionally following the ancient texts for their own motives or amusement.

To prove a prophecy, you would have to eliminate the possibility of it being fulfilled intentionally or coincidentally.

OK so you've now systematically gone over the "Ego I-mee" (G1473 + G1510) statements within the NT, to establish if there is any merit to said claims?

No, because the stated purpose of the thread was only to explain to you why many people don’t accept Biblical prophecy. You obviously disagree but that shouldn’t prevent you understanding (just as I disagree with you but understand why you believe what you do).

 

[Muffled]

Then you should never listen to false prophets who have never heard the voice of God speaking commands directly into their minds to get them to confess and repent of their sins. If they haven't been justified and then glorified, they are not to be trusted as servants of God who testify to His knowledge called Christ. If they don't understand what the beast is and why it was created, then run away from them.

I believe I know what the beast is but I feel confident that you do not. Of course prophecy is tricky and one may never be proof positive until it happens.

 

[eldios]

I believe I know what the beast is but I feel confident that you do not. Of course prophecy is tricky and one may never be proof positive until it happens.

Not one inhabitant on earth knows what the beast is but those who are chosen to listen to the gospel of God I preach to them will learn all about the beast where all false gods built with human hands come from.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Paul, John and other additions claim Yeshua was going around claiming "I Am"; he didn't speak that way...

John said, "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together"

What did George and Ringo say?

 

[Muffled]

Not one inhabitant on earth knows what the beast is but those who are chosen to listen to the gospel of God I preach to them will learn all about the beast where all false gods built with human hands come from.

I believe that is where we differ. You preach your own ideas of the Gospel and I speak that which God puts in my mouth to say.

I believe I know nothing of this but I would enjoy listening to your fantasies.

 

[Muffled]

Let us begin with something that ought to be just a little obvious: Of the synoptics, Mark was written first, and Matthew & Luke copied a lot of that material, as well as other material from "Q." It comes as little surprise (to me, at any rate) that something copied from somewhere might bear some similarities to the material copied from.

Second, a "prophecy" that talks to something well-understood about human nature is hardly a prophecy at all. Name me a very famous or very powerful or very charismatic figure from history -- and I can begin the search of all the people who after claimed to be, or to be descended from or otherwise closely associated with, him.

I believe similarities may suggest a copy but there is plenty of room to consider that too convenient. After all a snake will have similar DNA to a human in some cases but that doesn't mean God copied parts of a snake to make a human.

Perhaps it comes as no surprise that the authors experienced the same things and had help from the Holy Spirit to remember them.

I believe what is prophecy is that they will all be false claimants. If there were no prophecy we could believe that one of them was the real thing.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

There are peer reviewed studies into NDEs, ,

So IANDS has been at it since 1981, and not one single “apparently nonphysical veridical perception” in all that time. Their journal is peer reviewed, but they have yet to prove their thesis.

They continue on though, with fervor..just like every other religious organization.

there have been proven cases of childhood reincarnation

Yes, proven. They use rigorous methodology like inspecting birthmarks to see if they look anything like the birthmark or death wound of some deceased person. Completely legit.

many people get miracles that are unexplainable.

LOL

Yet you just explained it as a miracle. Nope, no confirmation bias at work here. Nothing to see here folks, move along, move along.

 

[eldios]

I believe that is where we differ. You preach your own ideas of the Gospel and I speak that which God puts in my mouth to say.

I believe I know nothing of this but I would enjoy listening to your fantasies.

I don't listen to liars who have never heard the voice of God that I preach to His chosen believers.

 

[Muffled]

I don't listen to liars who have never heard the voice of God that I preach to His chosen believers.

I have Jesus in me so I speak the truth but whatever you are preaching it does not come from God as you claim but from yourself.

 

[wizanda]

I have Jesus in me so I speak the truth but whatever you are preaching it does not come from God as you claim but from yourself.

I don't listen to liars who have never heard the voice of God that I preach to His chosen believers.

Neither of you are anything like Yeshua or a spokesperson for God; so please stop being silly, trying to prove to each other you have more authority on this thread, thanks.