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How are we doing post-Brexit?

Altfish

Veteran Member
From the alt-right journal of choice the New Statesman:

Why the left keeps losing
John Gray

For the two wings of British progressivism – liberal centrism and Corbynite leftism – the election has been a profound shock. It is almost as if there was something in the contemporary scene they have failed to comprehend. They regard themselves as the embodiment of advancing modernity. Yet the pattern they imagined in history shows no signs of emerging. Any tendency to gradual improvement has given way to kaleidoscopic flux. Rather than tending towards some rational harmony, values are plural and contending. Political monotheism – the faith that only one political system can be right for all of humankind – has given way to inescapable pluralism. Progress has ceased to be the providential arc of history and instead become a prize snatched for a moment from the caprice of the gods.

In a droll turn, 21st-century modernity has turned out to be rather like Johnson’s beloved ancient classical world – although the flux we inhabit should temper any confident predictions of Conservative hegemony. Johnson’s invulnerable position in government masks the dominance of progressive ideas throughout much of British life. Even Labour, seemingly damaged beyond recovery, cannot be written off.

Progressive thinkers have reacted to the election result in different ways. Rationalists among them blame the first-past-the post electoral system. If only Britain had European-style proportional representation, the disaster they have experienced could have been avoided. It is obviously true that the result would not have been the same. Whether PR would have produced a progressive majority is another matter. If the 2015 election had been held under the D’Hont system used in elections to the European Parliament, Nigel Farage’s Ukip would have secured 83 seats in the Commons (it won nearly four million votes). In reality, voting patterns would be different under any kind of PR, but the far right would still play a larger part in the British political system than it does now. Progressives talk of building the kind of majority they want, as if it somehow already latently exists. More likely, parties of the far right would set the political agenda, as they do throughout much of the continent. If you want a European-style voting system, you get a European style of politics.

Other progressives prefer a demonological interpretation. Doodling their fever-dreams in green ink, they portray the election as having been hijacked by sinister global forces. Officially, they believe values and beliefs other than their own are errors that can be corrected by reason and education. In practice many among them have invoked an idea of omnipresent evil to explain humankind’s stubborn resistance to their efforts to improve it. Communist regimes pointed to saboteurs and foreign spies to account for the systemic failings of central planning. More recently, liberals have invoked Russian meddling and a global far-right network masterminded by Steve Bannon to explain their political defeats. Delusions of conspiracy are part of the mass psychology of progressivism, and will intensify in the coming months and years.

Taking another tack, avowed liberals carry on attempting to thwart the results of democratic choices – not only the referendum, but now a general election. Such attempts tend to be self-defeating, as American liberals will discover if impeachment solidifies Donald Trump’s base and opens his way to a second term as president. The anti-Brexit campaigner Gina Miller appears set to continue the alt-politics of legal warfare, but the attempt to install rule by lawyers can only have one result. The authority of the executive will be reasserted, and the British judiciary returned to a more modest role like the one it had before Tony Blair conjured up a Supreme Court one wet afternoon.

Why the left keeps losing
I know, read loads of articles along similar lines; but I'm not a Corbynite, I'm central. I believe in regulated capitalism. I have no one to vote for. Or to be precise, no one with any hope. Politics has become extremes in the UK far left or far right.
The far right lie better and the far left are not credible.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Dominic Raab really is dumb....he was being questioned about border checks if, as promised, we digress from EU standards...

Q. Is Michel Barnier wrong when he says there will be checks if the UK chooses to diverge from #EU rules?

DR's answer ; Yes
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Dominic Raab really is dumb....he was being questioned about border checks if, as promised, we digress from EU standards...

Q. Is Michel Barnier wrong when he says there will be checks if the UK chooses to diverge from #EU rules?

DR's answer ; Yes
What are checks?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Johnson talking nonsense to the ignorant masses again.
How can we have a deal with the EU, one which our companies can sell to, if we do not meet the EU's standards?
Does Johnson think we are daft??
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Johnson talking nonsense to the ignorant masses again.
How can we have a deal with the EU, one which our companies can sell to, if we do not meet the EU's standards?
Does Johnson think we are daft??


I have just read that, i don't believe anyone can be so stupid

On the plus side, i have, moments ago, received an email from the french ministry of the interior saying that our applications for "carte Sejour" is on track
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Wow, the important things are starting to happen, may be I was wrong about Brexit, Leave.Uk has just posted.

9M6Peoux


Who needs trade deals, no worries about border delays - We're getting blue passports (That we could have had as a member of the EU) :facepalm:
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Wow, the important things are starting to happen, may be I was wrong about Brexit, Leave.Uk has just posted.

9M6Peoux


Who needs trade deals, no worries about border delays - We're getting blue passports (That we could have had as a member of the EU) :facepalm:
I see the remedy is already available on Amazon ...

81HaUuEFQsL._AC_SL1500_.jpg
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Borghi is a Right winger MP here...

The very second after Johnson put Brexit into action, he immediately created a free independent government, with a Treasury Ministry full of trustworthy people, who are for economic growth through less taxes and more public expenditure


20200215_125126.jpg
 
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You mock, but can you give me some good news?

Which of these options do think is more correct?

A) it is impossible that Brexit could have a positive long-term impact
B) it is possible that Brexit could have a positive long-term impact

I assume you accept B) is a possibility, even if you think it improbable.

Therefore:

A) I would expect positive impacts to appear instantly, even before deals are made and the fact that they don't appear instantly is clear evidence of the long-term failure of Brexit.
B) I would expect benefits to emerge more slowly and gradually and long-term effects can only be judged over time
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Which of these options do think is more correct?

A) it is impossible that Brexit could have a positive long-term impact
B) it is possible that Brexit could have a positive long-term impact

I assume you accept B) is a possibility, even if you think it improbable.

Therefore:

A) I would expect positive impacts to appear instantly, even before deals are made and the fact that they don't appear instantly is clear evidence of the long-term failure of Brexit.
B) I would expect benefits to emerge more slowly and gradually and long-term effects can only be judged over time
Well A is always going to be true and no one would ever say B would definitely be true.

But I notice you have not given an example of a positive benefit.
 
Well A is always going to be true

You would expect benefits to emerge instantly???

But I notice you have not given an example of a positive benefit.

a) greater democratic accountability
b) decentralised governance focused on the needs of Britain, rather than 'one size fits all' centralisation based on committee of nations with competing interests and ideological agendas hashing out messy compromises.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
You would expect benefits to emerge instantly???
That's what we were promised.

a) greater democratic accountability
b) decentralised governance focused on the needs of Britain, rather than 'one size fits all' centralisation based on committee of nations with competing interests and ideological agendas hashing out messy compromises.
How is a cabinet full of public schoolboys, picked by the un-elected Cummins, containing the likes of Nicky Morgan democratic

But again, your examples are very airy fairy - nothing specific.
What will I recognise in (say) 2-years time that will show me that I was wrong?
 
That's what we were promised.

Seems a bit childish to throw a sulk because something that was obviously not possible turned out not to be possible, but if it helps to pass the time that's up to you.

How is a cabinet full of public schoolboys, picked by the un-elected Cummins, containing the likes of Nicky Morgan democratic

Multiple posts and peer-reviewed articles in this thread that explain the basic reasons why the EU lacks numerous basic features that are considered essential for a democracy to exist. You can read them if you don't understand what these are.

Britain lacks none of these features, even if they elected someone you don't like.

You may not consider democratic accountability particularly important and would prefer to have a fast track passport queue in an airport. That's up to you.

But again, your examples are very airy fairy - nothing specific.
What will I recognise in (say) 2-years time that will show me that I was wrong?

After so many years of endless Brexit noise, you still don't get it. What do you actually expect?

You seem to be looking for some simplistic headline policy like: "Free lollipops and bunny rabbits for all :rabbit::lollipop:"

The system of governance of a country is not "airy fairy", which is why humans have spent so much of their history arguing, and fighting, over methods of governance. I'm sure you accept the general principle that method of governance matters and has tangible consequences.

Preferring a decentralised system of governance over a centralised on is not "airy fairy" it relates to the idea that, on balance, and in the long run, a smaller decision making unit is better able to meet its needs than a larger, more complex one that is forced into uneasy compromises and lacks accountability.

It is not about one policy or position as these are unknown in the long run and subject to unpredictable variables. On balance, though the smaller unit is better able to respond and adapt to the inherent uncertainty of governance. Ideally, Britain will use this opportunity to further decentralise.

You can agree with this or you can disagree with the philosophy behind decentralisation, but it's not about some specific policy or the result of one single election or the fact they elected someone you don't like or that you might have to wait in an airport queue for 10 mins.

Governments come and go, there are good ones and bad ones. It is, however, perfectly acceptable to consider decentralisation and greater accountability are more likely to produce better governance in the long run than centralised and less accountable systems.
 
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