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How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
That's an exaggeration and not true as far as I can see it. Are you trying to associate us with the Christian fundamentalists?
From what I've read, it depends on the individuals how they take the words of Baha'u'llah, his son, or the grandson, with regard to non-Baha'i'. Certainly leaders do exaggerate for effect. Some people, the doom and gloom excitable types, will enjoy hearing about their superiority and how stupid others are. But wise adherents of any religion wouldn't. You're wiser.

The real point is that they said it, and it wasn't wise to say it, in my opinion, just because of the types that get excited about negativity.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
We have been talking about making sense of our experiences. I'd be interested to hear more about your experience and what made you so certain it was Siva.

Perhaps I am blind then?

What contradictions exist in my Faith that don't exist in your?

It's against our practice of humility to share personal stories about faith, so that talk stops here.
Nobody is blind. Anava (darkness) is everywhere. Imagine light covered in cloth, and you remove each piece of cloth one at a time. Some people have 10 layers, some have only 5, etc.

Contradictions ... Infallibility ... but impossible.
Equality for all, then discrimination against women and gays.
All religions are great, but then saying how they're wrong, and Baha'i' is the only true one.

I could go on, but at this point on this thread it's redundant.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
That's because half truths and distortions are being presented.
Just what are you suggesting? That all the non-Baha'i's here are distorting, but all the Baha'i's aren't?

I see it as everyone speaking what they do know, based on their experiences and readings, and how they've come to some sense by reflecting on it. Because it's filtered through an imperfect mind, and it's in words, there will always be differing interpretations all around. I don't see anyone intentionally doing that. It's more a natural outcome of being human. But go ahead and accuse if you must.

I don't see this natural processing by the mind as a distortion, because none of us can speak truth, because truth isn't in words.

It's more of the pot and kettle, or 'I'm right and you're wrong' attitude that doesn't bear fruit.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You are taking a Christian fundamentalist approach of taking sacred scripture out of context. Baha'u'llah was speaking of the condition of 19th century Persia when He revealed this tablet to Ahmad.

Tablet of Ahmad

Can I ask. Christians believe scripture applies to today not just back then. Does Bahaullah's words apply today?

Also, this point has been said about non-bahai months ago. You were the only one who apologized. Christ and Bahaullah have a strong way of saying things and their positions i who believed and who does not. Do you think their teachings and points apply today?

I honestly would say fundamentalist view. Its more protestant.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Do you also use alcohol for valium withdrawal?

Don't worry about the valium, just the withdrawal...!!

Old_B: Dearest Kindest Doctor, I intend to withdraw from all this weekend with a very small 1 litre bottle of Jack Daniels. Would it be at all possible for you to just scribble off the teeniest weeniest little prescription to help me with this? Please? Sir?

:p
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Don't worry about the valium, just the withdrawal...!!

Old_B: Dearest Kindest Doctor, I intend to withdraw from all this weekend with a very small 1 litre bottle of Jack Daniels. Would it be at all possible for you to just scribble off the teeniest weeniest little prescription to help me with this? Please? Sir?

:p


Withdrawal from some things is incredibly intense. DTs or worse. Some can be life threatening. In that case, better to not withdraw. My father in law, who could drink 2 26s of vodka in a single sitting, went through it 4 or 5 times in his life. 'Drying out' as it was called.

Nasty stuff.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
OK - what did I not understand?

This is what I got from your post...

There are two possible uses of "delusion" - one is where someone believes something that turns out to be false (it could be argued that this is not a valid application of the word 'delusion' because the usual use of that word requires that there be compelling contrary evidence - but never mind that we'll leave it in for now).

The second is where the delusion is psychotically-induced (which could be because of mental illness which you mentioned, or because of drug use which you did not mention). Am I right so far?

You argued that the first application could work either way in religious applications - e.g. we could believe there is a God when in fact there isn't one OR we could fail to believe there is a God when in fact there is one. The problem here is where is the compelling evidence either way? But still, in this case even if there were compelling evidence one way or the other, could it not simply be that someone who was wrong about it was simply mistaken - not delusional - just misinterpreting the evidence. If that is what we mean by "delusion" then we are all delusional very frequently aren't we? And the messages of previous Manifestations become increasingly delusional as human knowledge advances - doesn't it? But again, lets just leave it there for now.

You then argued that the Bab (and Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah) could not have been psychotically delusional because they were able to function successfully in other aspects of life...such as what?...are you suggesting that because someone is able to tie their shoe laces, maintain a physically healthy diet and lifestyle, write letters and cross the road safely they cannot possibly be mistaken about the existence of God? And yet there a millions of atheists who are entirely capable of doing all this and more - and yet they believe the exact opposite of what you seem to think is proven beyond any reasonable doubt?

So again - what did I not understand?

Delusions that are associated with mental illnesses is a symptom. It can be severe or mild delusion. It is not like all people who have delusion, is due to the same mental illness.
It can be bizzare or non-bizzare delusions.
It is known and you can research it, that delusions which are hallucinations are due to sever mental problems. In fact those mentally ill people who believe to be God, or chosen by God, are often those who have schizophrenia. Such mental illnesses would make the person incapable in other functions too; memory problems, communication and reasoning,..etc. It is true that there are many who have delusions while still functional in other areas, however those are the people with minor and non-bizzare delusions. For instance a person may be suspicious and think some people are making conspiracy. This is a minor delusion. But if a person hallucinates and sees things which are not there, or believes without doubt he is God or Messenger of God, this is no longer a mild form of delusion. You can research it.
It is like saying, most of us in our life will have some breathing problem, but it is due to minor cold and does not effect our function. However, when breathing problem is severe and persistent, it is no longer due to just simple cold. It would be perhaps long cancer, or fluid in the long, a more serious condition which makes the person incapable of living normally.
It may be interesting to know that, one of the Prophecies in Islamic Traditions says, when the Mahdi appears, people think He is a madman, a crazy man. Now, see how this came to pass; the Bab who claimed to be the Mahdi of Islam, was imprisoned. Before they execute Him, they said let a doctor visit Him. If doctor recognized He has a mental illness, then we know His claim is only due to His mental illness, and we do not have to execute Him. Then they had a British doctor visit Him. After that the doctor said He is a pleasant and healthy young man. Then they executed Him.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've researched on-line, both from the official Baha'i' sources and the non-official. Often two very differing stories. But of course you already know that.

Which source would be more reliable is the decision we have to each look for. This is just a simple test for our perception of Justice.

Thus in the History of the Faith you have one side trying to Balance and give a just reflection of all that has happened and on the other side you have an attempt at all costs to destroy a new Faith, a Faith they see as a real threat to their power and influence.

All History on this topic has two sides to the story, we get to apply our perception of Justice, our guide is our internal self. In all this you are free to see it as you wish to.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Excellent questions.

Can I ask. Christians believe scripture applies to today not just back then.

There are many Christians that would argue circumstances today are so different from Christ's time that we can not apply all the teachings. Examples of this are women's rights, laws regarding divorce, and homosexuality.

Does Bahaullah's words apply today?

Yes, but we need to be careful with any sacred scripture to consider language, the context in which it was written and its consistency with other scripture. The tablet of Ahmad is quite poetic in places, with metaphor and allegory. So we have to consider the language and what it actually means. Then there is the context, in that it was written to a specific believer, with a purpose in mind. Then if we are considering its meaning, we have to ensure that our understanding does not contradict Baha'u'llah's writings that say something completely opposite.

So, if any Faith adherent or anyone is quoting from sacred scripture, we need to consider language, context, and consistency with other writings.

Also, this point has been said about non-bahai months ago. You were the only one who apologized. Christ and Bahaullah have a strong way of saying things and their positions i who believed and who does not. Do you think their teachings and points apply today?

The language of both Baha'u'llah and Christ can be extremely strong in places. That is yet another reason to exercise care in our approach to scripture, so we understand what is meant, otherwise we start to develop this very black and white view, which is not intended.

I honestly would say fundamentalist view. Its more protestant.

I believe Catholics do it to, but they are more circumspect. For example, when Jesus said I am the way, the truth, the light, and nobody can go to the Father, except through me (John 14:6) many Christians of both Protestant and Catholic background will take this literally and ignore the context. They believe that only through Jesus can we be saved, and this is an eternal truth (I would dispute this interpretation of course). Protestants may be more overt in telling sinners such as you and I that we are going to hell unless we turn to Christ. Many Catholics believe this, they just won't say it. What do you think?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then why continue to do it?

It is not our Message we share. We are also subject to the same advice or guidance that is posted. So we are more than happy to leave it there if you in no way wish to hear of what is offered.

Consider, when you post here do you want a Honest answer? We would offer a reply from what Baha'u'llah has written, in fact from what any Great Being has Written.

It is then we differ on its meaning. The Word remains what it is.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
This is just me personally. Abrahamic and some Buddhist religions I don't care for because they have a "I vs. them" mentality constructed in their belief system. The very fact we are "limited beings" , we are "blind" , people were blind and then they could see or on the Nichiren Shoshu in, no one knows the True Buddhism but Shoshu.

I agree.

If I only talked with you and Arthra about Bahai and haven't met the other personalities on this thread, I wouldn't have gotten the impression of that mentality, though there is one, because you guys don't express your faith in a black and white view. When I read Bahaullah's letters, he does. Distinctively.

Baha'u'llah does, that is true.

It's very unattractive so well-intended or not, it's a hard conversation for me since I don't care for religions like that. It, how would I say, makes me feel uncomfortable inside.

If your goal is to understand a religion, then you find an approach to understanding a religion that works for you and you are comfortable with. Part of my learning is to talk to different faith adherents where there is a two way dialogue that we are both comfortable with. If you want to read Baha'u'llah's writings the best place to start from is probably the Hidden words or Gleanings, but only if you are interested.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

Even take religion out of it. In LGBTQ, we think of equality for all people. There is no such thing as "gay marriage" there is just marriage. There is no such thing as a traditional marriage. Everyone's marriage is unique to the two people involved. The inequality and bias of religions and politics really really really frustrates me.

That's excellent you are part of a community that supports your values, beliefs, and aspirations. It sounds as if Buddhism is a good fit too.

I can talk about it if everything is calm. Things like Death Penalty and stuff, regardless, I can't get a word out. The Buddha talks about valuing life. One of those big things about "killing" is that you can kill someone's body, kill with words, kill someone's sense of self, kill someone's esteem.

Buddha's words are mild as milk and very comforting.:)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I beg to differ, Corrected on your side, sure, Not on mine. Please don't speak for all of us like that.
Ah, yes.
Your above post was in reply to a Bahai post which read 'anyone can say anything'.
Now I'm not sure what the whole context was, but it's quite clear that Bahais are extremely restricted about what they can say or write in the media.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Which source would be more reliable is the decision we have to each look for. This is just a simple test for our perception of Justice.

Thus in the History of the Faith you have one side trying to Balance and give a just reflection of all that has happened and on the other side you have an attempt at all costs to destroy a new Faith, a Faith they see as a real threat to their power and influence.

Tony, I'm honestly a neutral observer. Generally neutral observers are seen as being on the opposite side of your side, whichever side 'your side' is on. I have been accused of being a Baha'i' in disguise already, on another site, as I defended Baha'i' freedom of thought. All sides always have a bias. Each side claims theirs is the balanced perspective. I suppose that's a natural inclination. Why would anyone think their view is totally wrong, after all?

I never got exBaha'i' people as being all that negative, just moving on mostly, and mostly in a positive sense. Sure, people vary.
 
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