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Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    There are some hints in the story that tells us, the Author of the Bible meant spiritual resurrection of Lazarus. I already raised two questions, which if physical resurrection was intended, it would be contradictory to the details of story.

    Notice that first, Jesus is told Lazarus is sick. Jesus waits for two days, then He goes to the town, which is just two miles away to see Lazarus. When He gets there, they tell Jesus that Lazarus has been dead since 4 days ago! If he was dead 4 days ago, then why just two days ago, they had told Jesus that he was sick? Notice that Jesus speaking to His disciples, first says Lazarus is sick, then says he is asleep, then says he is dead. Why would He in an apparently quick minute, says 3 different things. Why not saying plainly he is dead from beginning? Also notice when Jesus says, lets go to Lazarus, the disciples say, "we come so we die with him" . If he was already dead, it is incorrect to say lets go and die with him. It can only be correct if he is alive, and they can die together. Why and how they should die? Did they want to suicide? But when they went there, did they die with him? Why would they want to die with him?
    There is a lot of questions which cannot be answered with literal interpretation of the story. But see, how all these questions are answered when interpreted spiritually:

    The Author of Bible uses the word 'dead', or 'alive' not only to mean physically, but also to indicate 'believer', or 'disbeliever'.
    Just before Jesus mission begins, it was not determined yet who is a believer or disbeliever in Jesus. But at the moment His mission began, nobody had believed in Him yet, thus all are symbolically called 'dead', until they find Him and believe in Him.
    The duration of the Jesus ministry was about 3.5 years according to many Bible scholars, which includes 4 individual years. The story of Lazarus is very close to the end of Jesus ministry, and is reasonable to say it happened in the 4th year of Revelation of Jesus. All these years, he had remained unbeliever in Jesus, until Jesus went to Him and resurrected Him, meaning, he was disbeliever, and became believer. God, uses "a day as a year" , to make the meaning 'hidden'. Thus when it is said in the Bible, he was dead for four days, this is a mysterious and figurative way for saying he was a disbeliever for 4 years!
    Notice, the Author of Bible uses the term 'Natural', to be the opposite of 'Spiritual'. This can be seen in many other parts of the Bible. Then think, He gives a hint in the story, that Lazarus' asleep was not 'Natural'. Therefor, if his asleep was not a natural sleep, then, what type of asleep was it? That is right! Spiritual asleep! Only in this way, asleep and death can mean the same, but physical death is never same as asleep.
    Now, think about the rest. Disciples say, we want to go and die with him! Now this time can be said literal death. The disciples knew that once Lazarus becomes a believer, he will be also put to death by the Jews, thus, they say, we are also willing to die with him. Think about the rest of expressions. But do not use your own imagination to make up interpretations! Notice elsewhere Jesus said 'new cloth' is 'newness of life'. Thus, here He tells Lazarus, take off grave cloths, meaning, set aside old ways of life, and become new, with His new teachings. The other expressions are symbolic as well, and if you search in Bible, you can see for example what 'stink', symbolically mean.
     
    #10701 InvestigateTruth, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  2. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    How does Abdu'l Baha get to the year 666 again? And how long did he say they would stay in power?
    The Banu Umayya (Arabic: بنو أمية ‎‎), also known as the Umayyads (Arabic: الأمويون / بنو أمية‎‎ al-Umawiyyun), were a clan of the Quraysh tribe descended from Umayya ibn Abd Shams. The clan staunchly opposed the Islamic prophet Muhammad, but eventually embraced Islam before the latter's death in 632. A member of the clan, Uthman, went on to become the third Rashidun caliph in 644-656, while other members held various governorships. One of these governors, Mu'awiyah I, became caliph in 661 and established the Umayyad Caliphate. The dynasty ruled and expanded the Caliphate until their overthrow by another Qurayshi clan, the Abbasids, in 750.​
     
  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Its worth considering that there is only one mention of the number 666 in the entire bible.

    Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
    Revelation 13:18

    It is also worth considering the span of Mu'áwíyih's caliphate, and that he was the first caliphate.

    Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia


    666 doesn't just refer to Mu'áwíyih but to the Umayyad dynasty which according to the Baha'is is depicted has a multiheaded, multihorned terrifying beast in both Revelations and Daniel.
     
  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    John 11:17-21
    17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethany was less than two milesb]">[b] from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

    21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
    You say, "Think about the rest of expressions. But do not use your own imagination to make up interpretations!" But your interpretation isn't from your imagination?

    It is unbelievable that you think that John is telling the story of the things Jesus did is all symbolic? Or, that John is telling what Jesus was doing and where he was at, and then suddenly goes into a symbolic story of a supposedly non-believer that has been spiritually dead for 4 years?

    Well then, if every time a day is mentioned then is it a year? So Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days, so that is 3 years? I don't think so. When Jesus went into the wilderness for forty days, that was really forty years? I doubt it. I think John was telling a story about Jesus raising his friend back to life.

    What possible significance could the story be for early Christians if everything Jesus did was symbolic? They weren't given the "true" Baha'i interpretation, so they were completely and totally misled about the truth about Jesus. They were under the impression that Jesus really did these things. Even today, Christians believe these things really happened. Why do Baha'is think that it is so wrong that they must re-interpret the gospel stories?
     
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  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    But I didn't see that this "Beast" took power in the year 666. I saw 661 as the year he took power and they were overthrown in 750. Are you saying that every one that took and held power in Islam was part of this Beast and evil?
     
  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The Umayyad Caliphate is the beast, and its succession of rulers were all part of it.

    Daniel 7:23-28

    Revelation 13:1

    The 10 horns represent its succession of Caliphates, the seven heads the territories it conquered.
     
  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Abdulbaha says 666 years from Birth of Jesus, which comes to year 661. You know, There is about 4 - 5 years difference between birth of Jesus and beginning of year 1 in Christian Calendar.
     
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  8. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    No, not all days are counted as a year in Bible. Only in some. You would know that from context.

    But yes, if you recall, a while ago I showed Jesus raising on the 3rd day, and after that His staying for forty days, is also prophetically fulfilled; when the Bab was martyred, three years later He was raised and remained for forty years.


    No! I am not using my imagination. I am using the knowledge of Bible to understand it. For instance, i did not make up, a day is counted as a year. It is in the Bible:

    ".... I have assigned it to you for forty days, a day for each year." Ezekiel 4:6

    I am sure many Christians understood it correctly. But they kept it secret, as it was written in Bible to shut your mouth until the end of time, for the Book was to remain Sealed until the Day of Resurrection.
     
    #10708 InvestigateTruth, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    This is the 4th beast in Daniel. Who were the other three? Did this beast "devour" the whole earth? Who are the 10 kings that arise, and who is the king that arises after them and subdues 3 of the kings?


    23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
     
  10. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Talking about this beast:

    3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

    4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    This beast was had power for 42 months, or Baha'i time, 1260 years. But, who is the dragon that gives power to this beast? Who is the head that was wounded to death and was healed? And, since this is before The Bab, who is the Lamb and what is the Lamb's book of life?

    Then another beast?

    11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

    12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    This beast causes people to worship the first beast whose deadly wound was healed. But, the wound happened to one of the heads? Something that Baha'is say are kingdoms? Please explain how you came up with that.

    Then we have this beast give power to the image of the first beast? And, no one can buy or sell without the mark of the beast... which is his name or number, the 666. So, again, how does 666 become a year? If this beast is the one that goes with the number 666, then Baha'is believe this is that evil Umayyad Caliphate? Then who was that other beast in 13:5 that had power for 42 months? They are related but not the same beast. And, there was the dragon mentioned earlier that chased after the woman that flees for 1260 days into the desert in the previous chapter? Plus, what about her child? Don't the Baha'is say that child is The Bab?

    And speaking of The Bab... next, in chapter 14, the Lamb appears with 144,000. Since you believe the Lamb is The Bab, who are these people? But let's go all the way back to Chapter 11:14 the second Woe, The Bab, had already past, and the third Woe, Baha'u'llah is coming quickly? Baha'is are bouncing all over the place to find verses that they can fit into their interpretation?

    The first Woe ended in 9:12. Don't Baha'is claim that Woe is Muhammad? But then, the two witnesses happened in 11:3 and went for their 1260 days/years? And that, you say, is Muhammad and Ali? And after they "witness" for the 1260 days, they are killed and they are left out for all to see for another 31/2 days, which Baha'is convert to another 1260 years?

    No, you say this is the same 1260 years? Every time 31/2 days, 42 months or 1260 days is mentioned, Baha'is convert them all to 1260 years, and say it refers to the time of the Hijira in Islam to the coming of The Bab? Every single time? How can the two guys witness for 1260 days then be dead for 31/2 days and not add up to 2520 years?

    Sorry, right now, there are too many holes in the Baha'i interpretation...too many things left unexplained. And, if Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of all these things, Baha'is should have a complete and thorough explanation of all of it. A few pieces here and there isn't going to convince too many people.
     
  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Is it 4 or 5? He better know for sure, 'cause if it's 4, it still doesn't add up to 666. But 7000 dead in the earthquake... 200 million person army... two references to 5 month periods, the 24 elders, and the 144,000 are important numbers also. What is the official Baha'is interpretation to these numbers?
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So a day or a year in the context of this story?

    John 11:17-21
    17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethany was less than two milesb]">[b] from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

    21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
    Also, what was the reference to The Bab being raised 3 years later and remaining for 40 years?

    Now you might be sure many Christians understood it correctly, but who were they? And what exactly is it they understood? And because somewhere in the Bible it says to keep something secret, Baha'is say these Christians kept the truth secret? And why would they do this? Things like the healing of the sick, raising the dead, restoring sight to the blind... Jesus' own resurrection... all these things they knew the truth, that all of them were symbolic, but they kept them secret? Is that what Baha'is believe?

    So if there were crippled, blind and people with leprosy, Jesus "healed" them spiritually, but left them unhealed physically? Is that what Baha'is believe?
     
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  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen posts from you and Carlita lately. Is it that time to just let it go and move on?

    For me, I don't know, because I'm asking questions that have nothing to do with the OP. I don't know where else to go where I could have this much freedom to ask the Baha'is anything I want.
     
  14. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    My last question, after being told that the 9 big manifestations had each started great civilisations, was to ask which famous great civilisation the Bab and the one right before him were famous for? I know the answer for Baha'u'llah which is that his great civilisation is yet to come.

    You guys are discussing biblical stuff right now, so that's way out of my field, and Hinduism hasn't been mentioned lately. So you're holding up the front on your own. Tony hasn't been around either though.

    If there is no more really illogical stuff or errors about Hinduism, I will be moving on, yes.
     
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  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    The best thing about this thread has been you and Carlita. With my Bible questions, though, you know the routine... They believe they have the truth, so somehow, someway, they are always going to find a way to spin a question to fit into their interpretation. So I don't believe there will ever be religious unity, not if only one religion, the Baha'i Faith, has the true interpretation of all the other religions.

    Hope to see you on another thread. CG
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Eh, since you mentioned my name, I thought I'd reply. I kinda wish I knew more scripture because I'm an experience-truth person; and, if anyone cannot trust their experiences and opinions without reference to sacred scripture, it makes it hard to delve deeper into a conversation and want to if both parties aren't interested in learning from both views-both experience and scripture.

    So, Vinakaya would have to be interested in learning sacred scripture as well as Bahai (all not just two of you) would have to ask about Vinakaya's views and both want to. It won't get anywhere without knowledge of knew material rather than rehashing old.

    With me, I am willing and can offer my experience in more than enough words. I'd be happy to read Bahai, Quran, and Biblical scriptures if I'm able to not only learn from Bahai point of view but from Bahai, hope my experiences and interpretations from these scriptures are respected just the same as they want me to respect their scriptures.

    It is hard to have a conversation without knowledge of each other's foundation of learning.

    Second, I've seen progress in one Bahai ;) in stepping out of his own comfort zone or how he puts it, getting through that thick shell. It takes time and patience but if Bahai agrees that all scriptures point to the same source, all people are unity, and diversity is respected, it would make sense to want to learn from your own community.

    Another note that hinders conversation: the definition of diversity and unity. If going by strict definition-diversity is differences. Unity is integration of more than two separate things into one or working together with the same goal and foundation.

    That is impossible with all of the revealed religions. If the source of these religious views are only sacred text and the members of these religions especially non-book religions are not taken into account as authority, then conversation about the text and what they really talk about not seen through one lens would be nil if understanding is desired.

    Reading and taking time to reply is a hinder with both parties because if both people took time and effort to read each other's posts and reply by posting and rephrasing (not copy-qouting) each other's posts, then we know the other person has at least skimmed over the post, scripture, or source enough to talk more about it-not just Bahai source but Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist (if there is such a thing :eek:), and so forth.

    For example, I quoted many of times that the Dhamma does not decay only the body-the scripture will sometime. Yet, I'm told (not quoted) many times and again the Dhamma will decay and a new Dhamma replaces it that shows the true teachings of The Buddha with whom leads all people to god as a manifestation.

    No one wants to know why what they believe is false to the person who believes it only true to their own interpretation.

    On the other side, only two (and sometimes three with you) have questioned us about our opinion, two about our religion, and one bout our interpretation of sides in both views that relate to the debate topic at hand.

    It is very hard to conversate if topics are directly skipped. It's not unintentional. Sometimes the posts are two liners and they are important yet they have time to post from the longer ones but not address actual questions from the shorter posts. Frustrates the mess out of me.

    So, I guess I'd like to move on. I am trying to find ways to clear my mind as that's what Buddhist teach-about the mind. The mind brings out compassion-it is not symbolic. It is a literal experience. So, pretty much its a foregone conclusions.

    Christians either ignore the conversation or push their conversion-point. I've never been to a Bahai temple so I'm hoping the thread here doesn't represent the overall thought pattern of most Bahai in the temple. If I do visit, hopefully it would give me insight on what some people here think as they do since most of the time I can't get confirmation and clarification on how they think from how I understand things rather than trying to figure it out through Bahai formulas.
     
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  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Take your time. Mostly a read-only post. Just sayin'
     
  18. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Stay or go, once again its been really helpful to have had you here to give the Baha'is a reality check as far as Hinduism is concerned.

    I've had a really busy week and I didn't have much access to the web when out of town earlier in the week.

    I see @Tony Bristow-Stagg has stopped posting. Hopefully he is just having a break that we all need as RF is a challenging environment.

    Unravelling the mysteries of the book of Revelation I can't imagine would be something you are greatly interested in as its all about Christian prophecy and arguably the most difficult book in the bible to understand.

    I'm starting to explore Islam a little more on RF which I'm excited about.

    I'm sure we will be seeing more of each other outside of this thread.:)
     
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  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I must offer my sincere appreciation for both you and @Vinayaka being part of this thread and the interesting conversations over the last 6 months. I think its knocked a few edges off me, and hopefully enbaled me to be a better participant on RF overall. Maybe the most important aspect is having my own voice rather than over reliance on quoting scripture.

    Any conversation needs to be based on mutual respect, courtesy, and an interst in each others points of view IMHO. It would be fair to say that talkng about Hinduism, Buddhism, and sexual orientation has taken me out of my comfort zone. No doubt having to consider and debate Baha'i scripture hasn't been the easiest for you either, but you have learned a lot. I'd like to think I have too, but i'm a slow learner...

    Then that is a good thing. I think you and @Vinayaka are lot more experienced conversing in the medium of RF and I would hope that has rubbed off on us Baha'is.

    Yeah, that's been one of a number of interesting topics we've covered. Its a very abstract concept and we have needed to considered what that means here one on one.

    One of those agree to disagree topics for sure;)

    Definitely. If we can't take the time to read and consider what each other has to say then what are we about?

    Part of being on RF is learning to hear what others say, and understand why they believe what they do, rather than reacting and feeling a need to disprove the other's POV.

    Busy life, and I do wonder if I could have learnt more about Hinduism and Buddhism over the past few months...

    Missed opportunity? Hmm....

    Fair enough.

    I think what unites us and helps us have compassion for each other is our shared humanity. If religion becomes a barrier rather than something thats bringing us closer, then letting it all go for a while seems like a good idea. Its not a symbolic thing as you say. We are either connected or we are not, and if we are it is something we experience.

    I think the next step is to go to a Baha'i temple or devotional meeting and just be with the Baha'is as you would anyone else. We're all just people after all.

    Maybe we should skype and talk rather than type and think? Hmmmm....scarey thought !?
     
  20. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    The Hijri era is calculated according to the Islamic lunar calendar and not the Julian or Gregorian solar one.

    That is why you go to any Islamic calendar converter and type in 1260 and you get 1844 or type in the gregorian year 1844 and you will get the Islamic year of 1260 AH.
     
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