• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How are these Great Beings explained?

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I am totally unfamiliar with Sri Aurobindo's writings, and never said anything about the quality at all. It was an example of a prolific writer. Are we communicating, or are you purposely putting words in my mouth?
I like to discuss in a way to drive some conclusions.
So far we both seem to agree that we need the Wisdom of God. The difference is, Bahais believe God can and has manifested among us and spoke to us, while actually being among us. We can learn from His wisdom by reading His Writings.
On the other hand, you are saying you do not believe God has manifested among us. Instead you seem to believe that Sages can become aware of the Wisdom of God, and that you can personally experience God to the level that you can learn from the Wisdom of God. Is this a fair summary so far?
If yes, then, Bahais believe that Bahaullah is the most wise as He was God among people. You have said there has been many sages who have been just as wise, or even wiser than Manifestations. So, we were comparing. I am saying, choose the wisest Sage, or anyone, and let us compare his Wisdom and abilities with Bahaullah. If you are not familiar with works of Sri Aurobindo, then choose one who you are familiar, and you believe he is wiser than Bahaullah. After all, you have said there are many who are as wise or wiser. So, let us examine fairly?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I didn't admit anything. It would all depend on the size of each volume. That's basic math. I used to play a game to teach my grade 4s. I'd say 'Billy had 10 coins, and Bobby has only 1 coin, who has the most coins?" Believe it or not, some kids fell for it, but most figured out the false logic. It also depends on the style of writing. Often Baha'u'llah, from the little I've read, uses 100 words when 10 would suffice.

Much of the debate here is to refute the claims of people who seem to enjoy defending their faith, even though it's unnecessary.
My argument was not about just quantity. You seem to have oversimplified it. It is about, being uneducated, yet having great knowledge. Can you show me an uneducated Sage, who knew about past events and traditions without studying or reading about them?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Deeds - Yes, there seems to be a focus on it. But is this focus just talk, or is it real? For sure I don't need to get into explaining my personal deeds, as that reeks of insecurity, and the desire to tell somebody about how great you are. I can't speak for others. I can say that as we age, at least in Hinduism, the focus shifts to a more inward one. Family duties, and duty to community is over, and the natural inclination is to become more of a devotional person. I'm 64 chronologically so that probably says something.

What Are the 4 Stages of Life in Hinduism?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I like to discuss in a way to drive some conclusions.
So far we both seem to agree that we need the Wisdom of God. The difference is, Bahais believe God can and has manifested among us and spoke to us, while actually being among us. We can learn from His wisdom by reading His Writings.
On the other hand, you are saying you do not believe God has manifested among us. Instead you seem to believe that Sages can become aware of the Wisdom of God, and that you can personally experience God to the level that you can learn from the Wisdom of God. Is this a fair summary so far?
If yes, then, Bahais believe that Bahaullah is the most wise as He was God among people. You have said there has been many sages who have been just as wise, or even wiser than Manifestations. So, we were comparing. I am saying, choose the wisest Sage, or anyone, and let us compare his Wisdom and abilities with Bahaullah. If you are not familiar with works of Sri Aurobindo, then choose one who you are familiar, and you believe he is wiser than Bahaullah. After all, you have said there are many who are as wise or wiser. So, let us examine fairly?

Now that's a far better approach. Less defensive, less aggressive. My two choices would be Tiruvalluvar and Tirumular. You can find the works of Tiruvalluvar on line, but Tirumular's work is so mystical, most people don't get all the references.

But I already know what you think. You've already come to your conclusions. So unless you're actually willing to read, the discussion won't go anywhere. I've already read some of Baha'u'llah's stuff, and have great difficulty getting through any of it. It's like Shakespeare to me, in a language to flowery to understand for a simple man like me.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
My argument was not about just quantity. You seem to have oversimplified it. It is about, being uneducated, yet having great knowledge. Can you show me an uneducated Sage, who knew about past events and traditions without studying or reading about them?
My own Guru was home schooled, and didn't read much at all. But I would never use him in this way. It's not a competition. I'll share one quote, 'Life is meant to be lived ... joyously.' In Hinduism, in the sampradaya traditions, it's about living sages and saints. So the relationship is ongoing, and current. The best teachings were personal one on one. I remember sitting beside my Guru in an airport, and he remarked casually, 'You know, some of my best teachings have been in airports." So in sampradaya, the individual is looked at, and what he says is for you and you alone, applicable to your particular life situation, your particular karmas, your particular personality. Very different paradigms.

Unfortunately for you guys, you can't send Baha'u'llah an email and get his advice. I'm guessing much would change if you could.
 

RoaringSilence

Active Member
It is based on what has been made available from God. There is no better proof than Gods Manifestations.

We can also look for God in all things.

Regards Tony

BAHU'ALLA was prisoner after which he gained sight..usually a manifestation is direct born with powers imo. but anyway im not here to discourage your faith.
On the other hand, you are saying you do not believe God has manifested among us. Instead you seem to believe that Sages can become aware of the Wisdom of God, and that you can personally experience God to the level that you can learn from the Wisdom of God. Is this a fair summary so far?
have you ever tried meditating from someone who knows the techniques ? once you try it you will see things differently like i explained to adrian about the realms...you would see them yourself.. samadhi , dmt experiences , 3rd eye ..10th door (ggs) all of these tools work. sadhguru is one guy who has a working technique being used by top institutes of the world..and you'll be shocked to the quality of people that want 20 mins with him so badly.. isha foundation is the primary reason we have world yoga day at the UN..

you need to take a step into it and see it for your self.. the stuff works... i can vouch for it personally ...just try one of these things with an open mind..instead of offering people an evasive walk thru me to heaven way...try to how people EARN their way to evolve,
when something works scientefically it has the whole world's backing...

and the NEW THING the law you want..is far from reality as people want to SELF GOVERN and teach SELF governance to others. you say the world is changing everyday ... and yes it is.. but not towards ..."enslave us for worship and give us a khalifa with a law.. that idea is for 7th century .
today's people want self governance and they wish to improve the inne awareness of those who fail at it.

it's all inclusive , divides no one as satanic or anti god,,,or sinner... anyone can do it ...experience it ..and once you do..there is no way that you will go around killing people for any damn reason.


 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Now that's a far better approach. Less defensive, less aggressive. My two choices would be Tiruvalluvar and Tirumular. You can find the works of Tiruvalluvar on line, but Tirumular's work is so mystical, most people don't get all the references.


But I already know what you think. You've already come to your conclusions. So unless you're actually willing to read, the discussion won't go anywhere. I've already read some of Baha'u'llah's stuff, and have great difficulty getting through any of it. It's like Shakespeare to me, in a language to flowery to understand for a simple man like me.
Tiruvalluvar lived about 2000 years ago, and there is very little known about him according to wiki:

Thiruvalluvar - Wikipedia

The other one also is not new at all:

Tirumular - Wikipedia

There has been many wise men, and perhaps these two must have been very good, and inspired. So, how would you compare them with Manifestations of God who were the cause of great civilizations? How would you know they have been inspired by God, and you should trust them?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
BAHU'ALLA was prisoner after which he gained sight..usually a manifestation is direct born with powers imo. but anyway im not here to discourage your faith.
Bahaullah did not gain sight after imprisonment. His mission began after imprisonment, and He revealed that He was the Manifestation of God. There is no change in Manifestation of God. From the moment He appeared on the earth He was Manifestation of God. The time of Revelation, or beginning His mission is specific.

have you ever tried meditating from someone who knows the techniques ? once you try it you will see things differently like i explained to adrian about the realms...you would see them yourself.. samadhi , dmt experiences , 3rd eye ..10th door (ggs) all of these tools work. sadhguru is one guy who has a working technique being used by top institutes of the world..and you'll be shocked to the quality of people that want 20 mins with him so badly.. isha foundation is the primary reason we have world yoga day at the UN..

you need to take a step into it and see it for your self.. the stuff works... i can vouch for it personally ...just try one of these things with an open mind..instead of offering people an evasive walk thru me to heaven way...try to how people EARN their way to evolve,
when something works scientefically it has the whole world's backing...

and the NEW THING the law you want..is far from reality as people want to SELF GOVERN and teach SELF governance to others. you say the world is changing everyday ... and yes it is.. but not towards ..."enslave us for worship and give us a khalifa with a law.. that idea is for 7th century .
today's people want self governance and they wish to improve the inne awareness of those who fail at it.

it's all inclusive , divides no one as satanic or anti god,,,or sinner... anyone can do it ...experience it ..and once you do..there is no way that you will go around killing people for any damn reason.


I have not tried any of these. I am sure yoga, and the meditations techniques are quite useful, just as work out, and eating healthy are useful. Studying sciences and technology is also very important. But for spiritual education, I do not see anyone else more capable than God Himself.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Tiruvalluvar lived about 2000 years ago, and there is very little known about him according to wiki:

Thiruvalluvar - Wikipedia

The other one also is not new at all:

Tirumular - Wikipedia

So, how would you compare them with Manifestations of God who were the cause of great civilizations? How would you know they have been inspired by God, and you should trust them?

Tirumular was amazing. His work, the Tirumanthiram, is referred to as the fountainhead of Saiva Siddhanta. Great sage. The legend is that his Guru Nandinatha gave him a mission to revitalize Hinduism in the South, so he wandered south, but couldn't speak the language, so a cowherd volunteered his body. Tirumular took over the cowherds body, which came along with the language. The villagers were impressed when He came back in singing higher songs of God's praise, when He'd gone out to herd cows. I'm sure you'll just write that off as fiction, some silly story.

Tiruvalluvar's scripture is used in Courts of Law in South India to swear on for telling the truth. Children memorise stanzas in school. It's a great work, a masterpiece.

I'm a Hindu. I trust other Hindus, just as you trust other Baha'i's. But I have a question. What great civilisations did your manifestations cause. Which great civilisations did the last three especially cause?

Certainly Krishna wasn't the cause of any great civilisation, according to Hindus. Hindu civilisation developed independently. According to Baha'i's sure, but you guys just re-write history any way you want to.

Here's another very famous Hindu: Adi Shankara - Wikipedia Hopefully you'll read it.
 
Last edited:

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
In regards to cultural influences, the Greeks must be near the top of the list.

Resurrection - Wikipedia

The Baha'is would argue the message of Christ comes from God but the manner in which those teachings is dependant on culture. When Paul taught about the exalted nature of the soul of a true believe both in this life and after death, we have the resurrection. Ideas were communicated with language and concepts that were readily grasped by the listeners. Paul found teaching the Gentiles fertile ground, including the Greeks.
Baha'is would also argue that the people Jesus brought back to life were "spiritually" dead, not physically. But that does not fit the NT stories. Especially Lazarus, a follower of Jesus, who had been dead four days.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No.



Because it is a prophetic book and Islam is an important part of God's plan.



Muslims don't hold the bible in high esteem and believe it is corrupted.



1260 on the Islamic Calendar refers to 1844 on the Gregorian Calendar. It is the birth of the Baha'i revelation.





No, but Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah will.



It simply refers to the birth of the Baha'i revelation in 1844 or 1260.



The earthquake is probably metaphorical representing a dramatic change in traditions and culture. It is associated with God's judgement. 1,000 is a great multitude and seven represents completeness. God's judgement is completed and perfected with the emergence of the Baha'i revelation.



Sacred verses can have multiple meanings.



Ali was the first Imam and legitimate successor of Muhammad. The whole Sunni/Shi'ite schism is about succession after Islam. The Bab is the twelfth Imam fulfilling the Mahdi prophecy in Shi'ite Islam.



Only 19 are known. The other 5 may become apparent to future scholars.

Apostles of Bahá’u’lláh - Bahaikipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith



There is plenty about Christianity and Judaism too if the Apocalyptic prophetic writings are considered in their entirety.



Those 2 chapters along with some commentary on the book of Daniel are a good start. Baha'is are encouraged to unravel all the mysteries with sacred scripture through prayer and meditation.
No? The prophesies go from on event right into another, but you interpret them out of the chronological order given?

If Islam is prophesied in the Book of Revelation why didn't God reveal it to Muhammad?

Was it Muhammad that said the Bible is corrupted? Do Baha'is believe it is corrupted?

Abdu'l Baha says there was an earthquake, but he didn't say how many were killed. If it's not 7000, then it doesn't fit the prophecy.

Here's a few other things I have for you to explain.

Two witnesses prophesy 1260 days. Baha'is say this is 1260 years. Gentiles trample the Holy City 42 months. Baha'is say this is also 1260 years. The Beast kills the two witnesses and their bodies lay in the open for all to see for 3 1/2 days. Another 1260 years to the Baha'is. They come back to life. Two periods of 5 months are mentioned in 9:5 and the other in verse 10. I don't remember that being mentioned at all by Abdu'l Baha. Neither did I read anything about the army of 200 million from verse 16.

In chapter 12:6 The women that bore a child flees for 1260 days. And all these refer back to Islam? Bahai's say this child is who? The Bab? A dragon is hurled to Earth and gives his power to a Beast that exercises authority for, guess what, 42 months. 13:8 mentions the "Lamb's Book of Life". To Christians the Lamb is Jesus. Who do Baha'is say it is? The Bab isn't it?

A second Beast enters in the scene in 13:11. He forces all to receive his mark. No one can buy or sell without this mark. The mark is the Beast's name... 666. Baha'is say 666 is a year.

Chapter 14 has the Lamb on Mt. Zion with 144, 000. Who is the Lamb again and who are these people with him? In 16:15 it says "I am coming like a thief"? So he hasn't appeared yet? But no, it doesn't matter to Baha'is because this isn't in chronological order. In verse In 17:1 a great harlot comes into the picture. Who is she?

Starting in 17:7 an explanation of who all these characters are begins. 10 horns are 10 kings are they will wage war against the Lamb. The Lamb wins because it says he is the "Lord of Lords and King of Kings". Christians say this is Jesus. Baha'is still say the Lamb is The Bab?

Chapter 20:2 Satan is locked up for 1000 years. How many years is that in Baha'i figuring? Gog and Magog are mentioned. What are they? Chapter 21:1 a new Jerusalem descends. The Lord God and the Lamb are its Temple. Verse 27, the inhabitants are only those that are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Abdu'l Baha only gives his interpretation of two chapters? Who going to explain the rest? And somehow make it fit into the Baha'i scheme of things?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Well I believe it's hard to deny that militant Islam is not a beast of destruction & murdering.
Rev 13
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Does this sound like it is talking about militant Islam to you? And I'll ask you too... Who is the Lamb and what is the Lamb's Book of Life? Christians say Jesus and don't you say it is The Bab?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes, of course, Tony. He most likely wrote more than all other holy people combined. He's the greatest prophet to have ever lived, after all. Indeed he was the greatest manifestation of God. Yes, that is the Baha'i' belief. Such resplendent humility after all. You have every right to be very proud.

But to get to a more succinct point. There cam be more knowledge in a moment of silence that in any amount of books. It would be all about quality, not quantity. But if you want to feel proud, go ahead. There is no stopping you. But then Hinduism, as I've said many times before, isn't a book religion, it's an experience religion.

Interesting esay here: God Help the Spiritual Writer
If you cut out all the flowery language, I wonder how many books did he wrote?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes it is quality that we are looking for.

Thus we do not base Meditation on our flawed idea's, we base them on what God has actually said.

Regards Tony
If a Christian and meditates on "God's Word", he's talking about the Bible and especially the NT. If he does that, and believes it, the Baha'i Writings are what's flawed. For you, the Christian's interpretation is what's flawed. So what you are really saying is to base them on the Baha'i Writings, that is God's Word.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
If a Christian and meditates on "God's Word", he's talking about the Bible and especially the NT. If he does that, and believes it, the Baha'i Writings are what's flawed. For you, the Christian's interpretation is what's flawed. So what you are really saying is to base them on the Baha'i Writings, that is God's Word.

In hard set mental states, 'I'm right and you're wrong' has two directions.
 
Top