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Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    It does fit, when one considers that Bible is inspired by God, and God also speaks symbolically to reveal spiritual truth and mysteries.
     
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  2. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    John 11:38-44
    38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.

    “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”

    40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

    41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

    43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

    Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”
    Okay tell me the symbolism? You even have the words "glory of God" to work with.
     
  3. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    42 months is 1260 days. In Bible prophecy a day is a year in most prophecies. So that makes 1260 years. The Beast, militant Islam ruled large parts of the known world for 1260 Muslim years. They were given that authority until the year 1260 which is the Christian year 1844 when the Bab announced His Mission.

    Calendar Converter - just type in 1260 for Islamic year or 1844 and you'll see they match. The Bible even knew the 1260 was Muslim years.

    Hijri Gregorian Converter by IslamiCity.org - Most Beautiful Hijri Converter on the Web - IslamiCity

    The Lamb in Revelation

    The Lamb in Revelation is not the same Lamb used for Jesus in the Gospels.

    In the Gospels, the term 'paschal lamb' is always used but in the Book of Revelation the term for Lamb is 'arnion' signifying a similar but not identical Lamb. Which us to say the Bab was similar to Christ but not identical.

    Also, please note that the Lamb in Revelation was 'slaughtered' not crucified as the Bab was not crucified so the Lamb in Revelation being 'arnion' is the Bab. Arnion Lamb is nowhere in the Bible except in Revelation and never once was used to refer to Jesus.

    Here's my extensive notes with sources on the two different Lambs found in the Bible.

    Lambs, Two Different Ones.

    This is some research I have done about the two different Lambs that exist in the Bible. One is Jesus but the other is not the same lamb in Revelation which is of course the Bab because the Lamb in Revelation is slain not crucified whereas the Lamb in the New Testament is crucified. The original language describes one lamb as Arnion and the other as Amnos.


    The Lamb in Revelation is not the same Lamb in The New Testament


    Young Ram or Arnion is the diminutive of arĒn/arnos meaning male sheep . Arnion is a word specific to Revelation.


    All the prior New Testament Books use amnos ( Lamb ) or pascha ( Paschal Lamb ), both versions clearly portraying Jesus.


    But now, suddenly, an arnion Ram runs onto the Revelation stage. It displays horns, anger, and leadership—all typical of rams, not lambs. (Apocalyse Secrets)

    Jesus's title is never Arnion Lamb

    Jesus is NEVER referred to as an Arnion Lamb (Ram) ever in any Book. He is always referred to as the Amnos or Paschal Lamb.

    Only Arnion Lamb is ever used in Revelation (25 times)

    Noun: ἀρνίον (arnion), GK 768 (S 721), 30x. arnion refers to a “lamb” or young “sheep.”

    All uses of this word except for Jn. 21:15, where Jesus refers to his followers as “lambs,” are in Revelation.

    (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary)

    arnion (ἀρνίον, 721)

    It is used only by the apostle John, (a) in the plural, in the Lord’s command to Peter, John 21:15, with symbolic reference to young converts; (b) elsewhere, in the singular, in the Apocalypse, some 28 times, of Christ as the “Lamb” of God,

    (Vines Complete Expository Dictionary)

    Christ was crucified

    Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him...


    Mark 15:24. And when they had crucified him,.....


    Luke 23:33. they crucified him,...


    John 19:23. they had crucified Jesus,..

    Crucified- Strong's Definition - g4717. σταυρόω stauroō; from 4716; to impale on the cross

    Slain - Strong's definition - g4969. σφάζω sphazō; a primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specially), to maim (violently): — kill, slay, wound.

    The Lamb in Revelation was not crucified but slain

    Revelation 5:6

    And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne ....stood a Lamb as it had been slain.....

    Revelation 5:9

    And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain.....

    Revelation 5:12

    Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain.......

    So Who is the Arnion Lamb mentioned in Revelation that was slain not crucified? It was not Christ. But a Christ or One like Christ.

    Revelation speaks of a New Lord with a New Name

    New

    “The new things that are prophesied are : a new name, the believer’s, Rev. 2:17; a new name, the Lord’s, Rev. 3:12; a new song, Rev. 5:9; a new Heaven and a new Earth, Rev. 21:1; the new Jerusalem, Rev. 3:12; 21:2; ‘And He that sitteth on the Throne said, Behold, I make all things new,’ Rev. 21:5”*
     
    #10683 loverofhumanity, Sep 11, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
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  4. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    So beautiful an explanation and makes me really wish there was a Hare Krishna Temple out here. I used to go there often in Sydney and the food tasted much better that it was offered to God first.

    Really enjoyed the video. Thank you very much.
     
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  5. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I see that the food is offered to God and it definitely makes it taste delicious. It's a beautiful culture and practice of putting God first.
     
  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Allegory can be based on a true story as well as an adapted story that is in part mythological. The story of Lazarus is unique to the Gospel of John and we don't know whether it literally happened or not. From a scientific perspective it's impossible but then God working through His Manifestations has power over the physical laws of the universe.

    The gospel of John differs from the Synoptics in that there are few parables and plenty of allegory, not just in the stories that Jesus tells such as the good shepherd, but also in the stories of Jesus that are arranged according to seven signs and wonders culminating of course in the resurrection of Lazarus. This is a pivotal event as it emphasises the power of Jesus over death itself. It also prefigures the resurrection of Christ.

    It's is almost certainly the last of the gospels to be written most likely around 90 to 100 AD. The resurrection stories based on the teachings of the apostles had well and truly taken root.
     
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  7. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The apocalyptic writings I'm most familiar with, Daniel, the Olivet discourse, and Revelations all tend to jump around chronologically, That's Divine Revelation like it or not. Of course revelation starts with the author having a vision that relates to particular churches at that time and ends in the very distant future happily, but there are disturbing and ominous developments along the way.

    Why would Muhammad refer to the book of revelation? His followers weren't Christians who were acquainted with NT scripture. Muhammad didn't say a lot about Jesus and still His followers got it wrong. Maybe if they hadn't been greedy and ambitious for power they would have united behind Ali, His chosen successor. Tragically, Islam took a U-turn away from God early in the piece and that is why we have the terrifying beast that features in both Daniel and Revelations.

    I'll answer some more questions soon.
     
  8. RoaringSilence

    RoaringSilence Active Member

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    they even use milder spices with no onions i think, it really is a treat ..i haven't had it in years but yes its possible to cook it at home easy with the recipe booklets they have .
    im not an iskon devotee but my father was a member of the donors club . i just like the work they have done in publicity , if it wasn't for them hinduism's footprint would be barely visible because we don't have instructions to convert people.
     
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  9. RoaringSilence

    RoaringSilence Active Member

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    check out the dance moves




     
    #10689 RoaringSilence, Sep 12, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
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  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    No. That is the understanding of many Muslims but it is based on a misunderstanding of Muhammad's teachings. For example the is a Quranic verse that Muslims interpret to mean Christ wasn't crucified. They take this literally. It contradicts the bible, so the Quran is right and the bible wrong.

    No

    'And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.'
    Revelation 11:13

    Abdu'l-Baha's words:
    'This earthquake occurred in Shíráz after the martyrdom of the Báb. The city was in a turmoil, and many people were destroyed. Great agitation also took place through diseases, cholera, dearth, scarcity, famine and afflictions, the like of which had never been known.'

    I found this reference to natural disasters in Shiraz from the 2016 online encyclopaedia Iran :

    Subsequent misrule by greedy and ruthless Qajar prince governors, factionalism of feudal families (specially the Qawāms and Qašqāʾis), and frequent clashes of Ḥaydari and Neʿmatis groups, combined with natural disasters (earthquakes in 1824 and 1853, pestilence in 1822, cholera frequently, famine in 1830, 1860-71, plague of locusts in 1830-31, etc., Fasāʾi, I, pp. 724, 800; Wills, pp. 251-55; Davies) reduced Shiraz to a provincial town (for Shiraz in 1812 see Ouseley, I, pp. 315-19, II, pp. 1-65, 159-224, for its state in 1850s see Binning, I, pp. 270-330). In 1811 it housed only 19,000 people (Morier, Second Journey, pp. 110-11) and 53, 607 in 1883 (when the first census was taken, Fasāʾi, II, pp. 22-3). Some normalcy prevailed towards the end of the century.

    SHIRAZ i. HISTORY TO 1940 – Encyclopaedia Iranica

    3 1/2 days, each day for a year in biblical prophecy, that is accepted by most Christians that examine these prophecies, means 3 1/2 years. If they are lunar years then that is 12 X 30 day months each year, so 42 X 30 day months = 1260 days.

    So 3 1/2 days = 42 months = 1260 years. We could use these calculations from Daniel 9:24-27 that relates from the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the crucifixion of Christ.

    More to follow....
     
    #10690 adrian009, Sep 12, 2017
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  11. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I think We should look at the story, from earlier part.

    For example, these parts are key in the story. There are questions that comes up:

    7and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

    8“But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

    9Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

    Question 1: How can what Jesus say, be a reply to the question the disciples asked Him?



    11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

    12His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

    14So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

    Question 2: why did Jesus first say that he is asleep. How could 'asleep' have the same meaning as 'dead'?
     
    #10691 InvestigateTruth, Sep 12, 2017
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  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    First off: Show me quotes to show that The Bab was known as the Lamb, because the Lamb is the main character in Revelation. It says the "Lamb is Lord of Lords and King of Kings". Why would that be The Bab and not Baha'u'llah? But why not Jesus?

    Everyone worships the Lamb. No one is worthy to break the seals except the Lamb. Chapter 6:17 has the Great Day of wrath of Him on the throne and the Lamb. The Lamb has a book of life. The Lamb is on Mt Zion with 144,000. In Revelation 12:17 it mentions Jesus by name:

    Revelation 12:15-17New International Version (NIV)
    15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
    There are so many problems with the Woes being Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. In Revelation 9:12 the first Woe ends. All the 1260 days, forty two months and 31/2 days all happens after that. Why would they refer to the Woe that already ended? But biggest stretch is making the number 666 a date. How do Baha'is come up with that again?

     
  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I don't get your dates yet. "The Hijri year or era is the era used in the Islamic lunar calendar, which begins its count from the Islamic New Year in 622 AD."

    So if I add 1260 to 622 I get 1882?
     
  14. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Supposedly, the message is from God not Muhammad. If God gave a vision to a Christian about the coming of the next manifestation, why wouldn't have that next manifestation point that out... that he is prophesied in the Christian Bible?

    Right now there are major problems. Abdu'l Baha comments on just two chapters, and the vision starts in chapter four and goes to chapter 22, ending with "I am coming quickly" and mentions Jesus by name.
     
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  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I still need 7000 to match the number in the prophecy. And my other question is that the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days. Gentiles trample the Holy City 42 months. Why do these two number of years cover the exact time period?

    The two witnesses have already prophesied for 1260 years, and the Beast kills them. Their bodies lay in the open for all to see for 3 1/2 days. Another 1260 years to the Baha'is. And they they come back to life.

    The other problem with this is the first Woe has already ended. All this is describing the things happening during the second Woe.
     
  16. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Is Lazarus spiritually dead or physically dead? If you believe he is spiritually dead then explain the verses I quoted.
     
  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Try putting 23rd May 1844 (declaration of the Bab) into the Christian calendar. It comes out at the 5th day of the 5th month 1260 on the Islamic calendar.

    Islamic Calendar
     
  18. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Arguably based on history and the book of revelation, Islam was not destined to be the universal religion bringing world peace and the age of fulfilment. The Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah's religion will be.

    The returned Messiah will have a new name:

    Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    Revelation 3:12
    Revelation 2:17

    He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    or like lightening from East to West.

    For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Matthew 24:27

    In 1992, 100 years after Baha'u'llah had passed away the Encyclopedia Brittanica recorded the Baha'i Faith being the second most widespread religion in the world, second only to Christianity.

    The second most "global" religion

    Because they refer to the same thing...Islam.

    When did the Muslims take over Jerusalem?

    Siege of Jerusalem (636–637) - Wikipedia

    Whats was the name of the empire that did this?

    Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia

    When was a declaration signed allowing Jews to return to the land the Muslims had occupied for over 1200 years?

    Edict of Toleration 1844 - Wikipedia

    How many times is the number seven mentioned in the book of revelation and what is its significance?

    Meaning of the Number 7 in the Bible

    How about the symbolism of a thousand and how often it features in Revelations?

    The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 1000 - Scripture Revealed

    It sounds remarkably similar to a resurrection and/or return...symbolically of course.o_O

    The third woe is yet to happen.:eek:
     
  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    There are no Baha'i writings that specifically interpret these verses. Baha'is are free as we all are to study and interpret these verses ourselves.

    And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    Revelation 9:5

    And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
    Revelation 9:10

    These verses may represent a period of 150 years (5 X 30 day months) where Islam was militant and corrupted, and had great power to hurt many men. This could encompass the Ummayyad Caliphate.

    And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
    Revelation 9:16

    These could be the warriors of Islam over many centuries.

    Once again, no official Baha'i writings but I the lamb is a Christain symbol for the Messiah who is sacrifed, so the Bab makes sense. The Bab also represents the birth of the Baha'i era.

    "You have asked about the meaning of the "four beasts" referred to in Revelations, Ch. 4. ‘Abdu'l-Bahá in a Tablet has given an explanation for the reference to the "beast" mentioned in Revelations 13:18, saying that the numerical value given to the beast in that passage referred to the date of the year, i.e. 666 A.D., when the Umayyad ruler arose. This is obviously a reference to Mu'áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph who opposed the Imamate. He speaks further on this subject in "Some Answered Questions", Chapter XI." (1 August 1978)
     
  20. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    I think some humans are born with some deity in them in their intelligence and ability
    to do things others can't.

    Sense these great leaders lived so long ago its hard for me to associate on the level of explaining.

    However In not convinced they all lived.Some of the writings the bible Sutras etc is based on legend. Maybe originally it was based on groups of people who did amazing things.

    I think of musicians
    and artists who do amazing things sometimes. Both Jimmy Hendrix and Prince taught themselves to play
    guitar. Not sure how its possible for them to play like they did.
     
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