How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

I have no problem with the idea itself, Adrian. Any religious institution is free to establish laws and rules for itself. I myself am under 4 vows, and most likely many people don't join our little organisation because of one of those vows, or something else. It takes 5-10 years of training to join, lots of personal counseling, etc. If, during that process, something is encountered, we merely suggest joining a more liberal sect or school within Hinduism. We don't ask anyone to change their behaviour

What bothers me is the contradiction of saying that you're open to all, loving of all, and then do this 'but .... thing. But maybe I'm mistaken too. maybe some Baha'i' counsellors, if they exist, would recommend to a gay that they shift to another more liberal Abrahamic Church.

Some of the hardest situations, for anyone in a gay repressive religious organisation, though, is for children who are born into it. For a person just looking at it from the outside, they can choose to not join at all, whereas a person born into it suffers a lot of personal loss (friends, maybe family) by renouncing it.

We all have our journey and struggle in life. In my twenties and into my early thirties I went through a long period of celibacy. As I searched for the truth and meaning in life I had to live in accordance with my highest values and had to sacrifice the lower nature to eventually embrace the higher nature. This was for a period of over 10 years. I think if we are serious about the spiritual path we have to make sacrifices. We can't simply follow the standards and practices of those around us, and for me that also meant abstinence from intoxicating substances including alcohol, and avoiding backbiting and gossiping.

Some that chose to become Baha'is have been through a similar challenging time, others have not. Those who become Baha'is are free to leave including children of Baha'i families and there is no shunning because of that. That is not the Baha'i way.

In regards to counselling, I practiced psychiatry for 7 years so often had 2 or 3 long term psychotherapy patieints that I would be seeing long term as well as the general work within mental health services. The art of counselling is to be able to reflect back to others what they are saying in a way that they can see themselves in a different more positive light that enables and empowers them to find their own path. Counselling doesn't involve tellling others what to do, imposing ones own vaues on others, or manipulating.

It is my sincere belief that some people who identify as homosexual have heterosexual leanings too. I also believe that for some people, especially when younger, sexual orientation is more fluid and not immutable. I also believe one of the major challenges for many of us, is to become focused on the well being of others and give less attention to persuing and gratifying our sexual urges.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ah. Thats different than how your peer described it. I thought in bahai, homosexuality is an action (so quotes I looked from him-edit Bahaullah). So, like murder to muderer, those who some say are homosexual are defined that way because of what they do.

So how do you define sexuality if you are OK about me asking?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So how do you define sexuality if you are OK about me asking?

No. I don't mind, thank you for asking. Take your time.

I'ma use only heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual to make it simple

Sexual attraction edit are within a spectrum of attractions physical from one sex to another. Some fall denominate on one side, some on another, but the attraction itself isn't fixed. Just as we have differing skin tones but religion at one time separated us by the color of our skin, our sexuality isn't fixed just our culture and religions since birth basically define us that way (puts us in a box).

Homosexuality, heterosexuality, and bisexuality has specific to do with sexual/physical attraction rather than an action. So, for example, my friend and ex has two children. She is a homosexual (physically attracted to women) by definition standards but she is not homosexual by most abrahamic religious standards since she had artificial insemination for her first child and second child even though they had intercourse. So, to religion, she isn't homosexual because she no longer has sex with women. By the way, women can't have sex/intercourse naturally speaking. She says she has no time to have sex, too much work and taking care of the kids, haha.

Transgender, in and of itself, isn't apart of this spectrum as a transgender person. Since he or she is male or female, he or she can be heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual in regards to sexual/physical attraction regardless their gender identity.

On that note...

People identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual as sexual/mental/physical identities that are not defined solely on sexual/physical attraction. A gay person can be a virgin and probably only been attracted to females during his childhood but then as he matured and puberty really sat in, he realized he was dominantly attracted-in all aspects of the word-to males. We are all human, so we have some form of attraction to people.

Though, if we chose to identify ourselves as gay or straight, you'd identify as straight and I would gay. You wouldn't be straight just because you are attracted to females, but your spiritual, mental, and all around connection is with females. So, regardless of "who" you go to bed with, to put it bluntly, you will always be straight.

That is the difference between straight and heterosexual just as gay and homosexual. The former is an identity based on a lot of factors. The latter is based on sexual/physical attraction as per medical dictionary. Most prefer sexual-orientation but either or.

So that's why they are both different.




The first question I asked: Can a gay person have sex within marriage, I mean as a trick question, can someone who identifies as gay have sex (intercourse) within marriage.

Can gay people have sex with females.

One of your peers defines homosexuality as an action. I (and medical dictionaries) define it as an attraction. Scripture defines homosexuality as an action of lust. The dictionary defines it as a attraction based on which sex a person is attracted to. I'm assuming Bahai religion views the former.

Any gay person can have sex with a female within marriage. We make choices but as straight and gay people we aren't programed as robots to not touch someone we are not attracted to. That's the gist of what biblical scripture says. edit Men a women went out of their own natural attractions (homo,hetero,bi, doesn't matter) by sleeping with every Tom, Dick, and Jerry. It has nothing to do with whether they identify as straight or gay nor who they are attracted to.

So the two are not the same. It's best to go off of how the person identifies and his or her definition and not Christ or Bahaullah's because Christ and Bahaullah define homosexuality as an action. If you talk to LGBTQ people, you'll find many do not identify solely by physical attraction. Some people don't have sexual attraction at all but they identify as asexual. There are many letters of the Alphabet. None of which has to do with who we choose to sleep with. I think you understand, kinda?

Sorry, for the wind winded answer. I don't get that often.

But thank you for asking.

 

[RoaringSilence]

off topic ...but still watch it coz its nice..

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is my sincere belief that some people who identify as homosexual have heterosexual leanings too. I also believe that for some people, especially when younger, sexual orientation is more fluid and not immutable. I also believe one of the major challenges for many of us, is to become focused on the well being of others and give less attention to persuing and gratifying our sexual urges.

I think this summarizes my other post in a lump sum. The only thing I'd change, in my opinion, is the leanings are both ways. Heterosexuals, believe me, have leanings to homosexual ways too. You're right, though. That' what I witness is mostly younger people who have a more fluid sexual orientation as they grow older. With a lot of LGBT folks (people who identify regardless their sexual orientation-say a heterosexual may still date a same-sex person because even though they aren't physically attracted to each other, they look at intelligence instead), we are pretty set in how we identify.

Sexual attractions are fluid. Identity is not.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

off topic ...but still watch it coz its nice..

This is beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I assume, probably incorrectly, that you're supposed to be working on change? And yet, the UHJ can't change laws. Your Guardian forbade it from changing. Seems like a conundrum to me.

There are Laws that are suited to the next 1000 years and can not be changed. Baha'u'llah has given authority to the Universal Hiuse of Justice to Enact and Repeal Laws not explicitly given in the Book of Laws. He has also given Authority to allow for the setting of the level of penalty under the given law to suit the Needs of the time.

Thus there is no conundrum, but there is a wonderful organic system where the foundation laws are for our benefit, not detriment.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

There are Laws that are suited to the next 1000 years and can not be changed.

Yes, that was my point, Tony. Thanks for confirming it. Changing such laws would be going against the infallible prophet, therefore the conundrum, given the realisation the laws may not make sense any longer.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, that was my point, Tony. Thanks for confirming it. Changing such laws would be going against the infallible prophet, therefore the conundrum, given the realisation the laws may not make sense any longer.

Time will prove them sound. To which you do not have to agree.

I appreciate Gods wisdom is greater. To which again you do not have to agree.

I aslo know you do not accept what Baha'u'llah has revealed, it is on that I base my thoughts on passages such as these;

"...Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!…"

“O YE peoples of the world! Know assuredly that My commandments are the lamps of My loving providence among My servants, and the keys of My mercy for My creatures. Thus hath it been sent down from the heaven of the Will of your Lord, the Lord of Revelation. Were any man to taste the sweetness of the words which the lips of the All-Merciful have willed to utter, he would, though the treasures of the earth be in his possession, renounce them one and all, that he might vindicate the truth of even one of His commandments, shining above the Dayspring of His bountiful care and loving-kindness."

Be always well and happy, Regards Tony

 

[Ingledsva]

I do not know, how you know He condemned them to Hell, but this is not Bahais believe. In Bahai belief, there is no physical Hell, only a state of being far from God is Hell. Obviously when people choose their own desires, over God, and love their own lust much more than God, it is them who choose to be far from God.
...

You can change the ending of that sentence any way you want and the rest would still stand.

"We would have to have a really stupid God to forget he made a creation where homosexuals can be born, and then condemn them to hell for being born that way!

We know from science that people are born this way.

Babies born with both penis and vagina, - should prove this even to the most scientifically stupid amongst us. Chemicals were fired at a time different then the usual.

Because we KNOW that, - we also KNOW - that religions that state these people are wrong or evil, or against "God's" teachings, - are NOT actually from God.

An all Knowing God would not be that stupid.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Where to some they are and those that see they are are working with heart and soul to bring Unity and Peace to all Humanity. Embracing all Faiths from our One God.

To the Muslim Divines of His day, that also said this of scripture, Baha'u'llah offered this stern advice;

"....Great God! Notwithstanding their acceptance of the truth of this tradition, these divines who are still doubtful of, and dispute about, the theological obscurities of their faith, yet claim to be the exponents of the subtleties of the law of God, and the expounders of the essential mysteries of His holy Word. They confidently assert that such traditions as indicate the advent of the expected Qá’im have not yet been fulfilled, whilst they themselves have failed to inhale the fragrance of the meaning of these traditions, and are still oblivious of the fact that all the signs foretold have come to pass, that the way of God’s holy Cause hath been revealed, and the concourse of the faithful, swift as lightning, are, even now, passing upon that way, whilst these foolish divines wait expecting to witness the signs foretold. Say, O ye foolish ones! Wait ye even as those before you are waiting!

It is God that fulfills Prophecy as God has so deemed.

Regards Tony

I How can I be "foolish" pointing out that your "prophecy" from Baha'u'llah (?) twisted what the actual Tanakh verse said, - and is thus WRONG?

That is just fact.

Both Baha'i and Christians twist Jewish writings and claim they say different things to suit their purposes, and CLAIM the info is from God.

*

 

[Vinayaka]

Time will prove them sound.

Time has already proven them unsound.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You can change the ending of that sentence any way you want and the rest would still stand.

"We would have to have a really stupid God to forget he made a creation where homosexuals can be born, and then condemn them to hell for being born that way!

We know from science that people are born this way.

Babies born with both penis and vagina, - should prove this even to the most scientifically stupid amongst us. Chemicals were fired at a time different then the usual.

Because we KNOW that, - we also KNOW - that religions that state these people are wrong or evil, or against "God's" teachings, - are NOT actually from God.

An all Knowing God would not be that stupid.

*

I understand your points. Let me rephrase what you are saying:
You are saying, since some people are born having both male/female organs, or having a desire toward same sex, then, if an All-knowing God had created them that way, and is aware that, they did not choose to be this way, therefor it makes no sense that the All-knowing God calls these people evil, as this is unfair.

My reply: I agree. If people are born differently, then it is not their own fault. But firstly, you are assuming, just because they are born that way, they cannot have control over their actions.

Second, you are saying, if homosexuality is wrong, then it makes no sense that an All-knowing God created them like that, and then expects them not to act according to their own natural desires, and if they do, it is considered evil.

My reply: here, you are assuming that God did not have a purpose for doing this. In my view it makes sense, since Bahai Scriptures states that, the foundation of this world is punishment and reward. In order for God to give punishment or reward, He has created a system of testing, by which each person's doing is evaluated by a set of standards, which are the Laws of God. We all are tested in many different ways, and conditions.
For instance God makes some people rich, to test them, if they are fair to the poor. Some are created as homosexuals to test them if they are willing to overcome their own desire for the love of God. He asked Abraham to sacrifice His son, to test His obedience and submission for the love of God. He told Muslims, Muhammad is the seal of Prophets, to test them, if He sends down His verses again, they truly recognized Him, and believe in Him. These are just few examples of the concept of testing, and its purpose. If there was no method of testing how could the real lover of God, be separated from the pretenders? If there was not separation of pure from impure heart, how would it be determined, who should be rewarded more or less? Punished or not? And if there was no reward or punishment, how would it be meaningful this life? It is obvious, if someone cannot believe in God, and His messengers, is not expected to believe any of this. But for Bahais, it makes sense. So, how would you know, there is no test, punishment and reward in this world, created by God?

 

[Vinayaka]

In regards to counselling, I practiced psychiatry for 7 years so often had 2 or 3 long term psychotherapy patieints that I would be seeing long term as well as the general work within mental health services. The art of counselling is to be able to reflect back to others what they are saying in a way that they can see themselves in a different more positive light that enables and empowers them to find their own path. Counselling doesn't involve tellling others what to do, imposing ones own vaues on others, or manipulating.

I also believe one of the major challenges for many of us, is to become focused on the well being of others and give less attention to persuing and gratifying our sexual urges.

Counselling, in that regard would be secular, I presume. It would be unprofessional to bring Baha'i' teachings into your medical profession, yet you are Baha'i' obviously. Sometimes doctors and other professionals likwe teachers, walk a fine line with that. So I think if we talk about counselling, we need to distinguish between the two. I was referring to a Baha'i' youth who wanted and asked for counseling from within his faith. So the local Baha'i' leaders would do the counselling. Perhaps you've done it in that regard, I don't know.

I agree with the second part. I don't thin sensual gratification would be at the top of the list for any decent human.

 

[Vinayaka]

My reply: here, you are assuming that God did not have a purpose for doing this. In my view it makes sense, since Bahai Scriptures states that, the foundation of this world is punishment and reward. In order for God to give punishment or reward, He has created a system of testing, by which each person's doing is evaluated by a set of standards, which are the Laws of God. We all are tested in many different ways, and conditions.
For instance God makes some people rich, to test them, if they are fair to the poor. Some are created as homosexuals to test them if they are willing to overcome their own desire for the love of God. He asked Abraham to sacrifice His son, to test His obedience and submission for the love of God. He told Muslims, Muhammad is the seal of Prophets, to test them, if He sends down His verses again, they truly recognized Him, and believe in Him. These are just few examples of the concept of testing, and its purpose. If there was no method of testing how could the real lover of God, be separated from the pretenders? If there was not separation of pure from impure heart, how would it be determined, who should be rewarded more or less? Punished or not? And if there was no reward or punishment, how would it be meaningful this life? It is obvious, if someone cannot believe in God, and His messengers, is not expected to believe any of this. But for Bahais, it makes sense. So, how would you know, there is no test, punishment and reward in this world, created by God?

I'm just glad I don't believe in your God. The foundation of this world is punishment and reward? You've got to be kidding. Why in the world would a loving God want to test everyone? That's more like dictatorship. And punishment. Death by burning for arson? It's all so cruel.

But that's the difference in paradigms again. In the west (Abrahamism) God is eternally separate, like a puppeteer, and humans are the puppets in some crazy cruel game.

In the east (dharmic faiths) God extends himself, emanating souls, matter, etc. So this testing idea makes no sense at all. Why would he test himself?

 

[Ingledsva]

We are considering the scientic aspects human sexuality. The fundamental purpose of sexuality is highly relevant.
Are you referring to hermaphroditism dependant on production of testosterone or a genetic disorder? How does that relate to homosexual behaviour?

We are not discussing homosexual "behavior." We are discussing how nature creates homosexuals.

It is a fact that if certain chemicals do not kick in, - the fetus will always be female.

Because of this, - If the chemicals kick in at a different stage, or turn on partially and off again, - we end up with babies all over the homosexual spectrum, and some with both penis and vagina. This is PROOF that homosexuality is from the womb.

I don't think so.

It doesn't matter if you don't think so. There are multiple studies showing homosexuality throughout the animal kingdom.

From medical news.net:
Medical Science News
Published: Monday, 23-Oct-2006

"Homosexual behaviour has been observed in 1,500 animal species."

"Homosexuality is quite common in the animal kingdom, especially among herding animals. Many animals solve conflicts by practicing same gender sex.
From the middle of October until next summer the Norwegian Natural History Museum of the University of Oslo will host the first exhibition that focuses on homosexuality in the animal kingdom.

"One fundamental premise in social debates has been that homosexuality is unnatural. This premise is wrong. Homosexuality is both common and highly essential in the lives of a number of species, " explains Petter Boeckman, who is the academic advisor for the "Against Nature's Order?" exhibition.

The most well-known homosexual animal is the dwarf chimpanzee, one of humanity's closes relatives. The entire species is bisexual. Sex plays an conspicuous roll in all their activities and takes the focus away from violence, which is the most typical method of solving conflicts among primates and many other animals...."

Why are you comparing homosexuals to fish, komodo dragons, large lizards, and sharks?

Obviously you didn't read the whole thing.

I was providing other examples that - again - show religious ideas about reproduction, - supposedly from God, - are just plain false. We have many types of reproduction on this planet.

So dispose of those pesky men, and with science woman can continue to propogate the species. OK

I think in a patriarchal world where men still want to control women, and the world. Where hundreds of thousands of women are abused, raped, and murdered by men every year. It is time men started thinking about this fact. It really is simple. All you have to do is inject DNA from one female into the ovum/egg of the other, and the result will be a completely new female with their mixed traits, just as when mixing male and female DNA. Men cannot do this, even with artificial wombs, as female mitochondria is necessary for survival.

There is a SiFi/SyFy movie out there that really brings this point home. I wish I could remember the name.

SO, - it isn't the way the Bible and other patriarchal religions says it is.

You certainly seem convinced that it isn't.

If science shows unequivocally that something is TRUE, and the religious texts CLAIM God said it isn't so, then we can assume - if there is a God, - that said God wasn't stupid enough to get it wrong in It's own religious texts, --

Thus religious texts that go against proven science - can NOT be from any God, and are actually the works of ignorant ancient humans instead.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

I understand your points. Let me rephrase what you are saying:
You are saying, since some people are born having both male/female organs, or having a desire toward same sex, then, if an All-knowing God had created them that way, and is aware that, they did not choose to be this way, therefor it makes no sense that the All-knowing God calls these people evil, as this is unfair.

My reply: I agree. If people are born differently, then it is not their own fault. But firstly, you are assuming, just because they are born that way, they cannot have control over their actions.

Second, you are saying, if homosexuality is wrong, then it makes no sense that an All-knowing God created them like that, and then expects them not to act according to their own natural desires, and if they do, it is considered evil.

My reply: here, you are assuming that God did not have a purpose for doing this. In my view it makes sense, since Bahai Scriptures states that, the foundation of this world is punishment and reward. In order for God to give punishment or reward, He has created a system of testing, by which each person's doing is evaluated by a set of standards, which are the Laws of God. We all are tested in many different ways, and conditions.
For instance God makes some people rich, to test them, if they are fair to the poor. Some are created as homosexuals to test them if they are willing to overcome their own desire for the love of God. He asked Abraham to sacrifice His son, to test His obedience and submission for the love of God. He told Muslims, Muhammad is the seal of Prophets, to test them, if He sends down His verses again, they truly recognized Him, and believe in Him. These are just few examples of the concept of testing, and its purpose. If there was no method of testing how could the real lover of God, be separated from the pretenders? If there was not separation of pure from impure heart, how would it be determined, who should be rewarded more or less? Punished or not? And if there was no reward or punishment, how would it be meaningful this life? It is obvious, if someone cannot believe in God, and His messengers, is not expected to believe any of this. But for Bahais, it makes sense. So, how would you know, there is no test, punishment and reward in this world, created by God?

Obviously I don't agree with you.

People whom are naturally born homosexual, - should not have to conform to heterosexual ideas about sex, or become monks.

As to that "testing" and "God's laws" - you have no proof what so ever that such laws are God's laws, - especially when they go against natural births.

As to Abraham and Isaac, I've already noted elsewhere that I think it is a story showing the Hebrew move away from Human Sacrifice of the First Born, - to animal sacrifice in place of them. Nothing to do with love.

The reward or punishment idea has nothing behind it but the ideas of Bronze Age men.

There is no reason to believe an All Knowing God would be sadistic, and literally causing pain, suffering, and death, trying to trip people up.

*

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I How can I be "foolish" pointing out that your "prophecy" from Baha'u'llah (?) twisted what the actual Tanakh verse said, - and is thus WRONG?

That is just fact.

Both Baha'i and Christians twist Jewish writings and claim they say different things to suit their purposes, and CLAIM the info is from God.

*

The purpose to Know and Love God. Love each man as your brother and work in Unity and Harmony.

How is that twisted?

Maybe it is men that like to think they are exclusivity right with self proclaimed fact, those that are full of pride in knowledge, those that have nothing better to do but condem all that try to do good, that may be wrong.

Worth considering.

While you do, remember I wish you naught but all good, naught but peace and happiness and a fulfilling life.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Time has already proven them unsound.

I see exactly the opposite, each day confims what has been given by Baha'u'llah. The people of the future will be astounded by our blindness.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You can change the ending of that sentence any way you want and the rest would still stand.

"We would have to have a really stupid God to forget he made a creation where homosexuals can be born, and then condemn them to hell for being born that way!

We know from science that people are born this way.

Babies born with both penis and vagina, - should prove this even to the most scientifically stupid amongst us. Chemicals were fired at a time different then the usual.

Because we KNOW that, - we also KNOW - that religions that state these people are wrong or evil, or against "God's" teachings, - are NOT actually from God.

An all Knowing God would not be that stupid.

*

He didn't condemn homosexuals to hell. He condemn people regardless who they are attracted to to hell based on their disobedience to god.

Their disobedience to god has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation. Bahaullah and the UHJ just used an incorrect word to refer to the sin of sexual promiscuity. It's more ignorance in terminology and not listening to the people who identify beyond their sexual attractions. I mean, ask a heterosexual who he is. Most likely, he won't say anything about his sexual attractions. Maybe he may say he's an artist with to children and a christian.

People are fickled with their inappropriate definitions and lack of concern and care for the people they accuse.