I consider homo neanderthalis to be just as human as us... based on what little I actually know about them.
BTW, it's not certain how neanderthals became extinct.
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Has human evolution been disproved?
- Thread starter Snowber
- Start date
I consider homo neanderthalis to be just as human as us... based on what little I actually know about them.
BTW, it's not certain how neanderthals became extinct.
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
It's easy for him to type. Longer words are harder to type, when you are trying to keep a strong grip on your weapon.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
It is mathematically impossible for the human genome to just appear out of nowhere... thankfully evolution says no such thing.
Evolution is genetics.... genetics is chemistry.... chemistry is physics and physics is math. Evolution is rooted in mathematics. (and there is quite a lot of math used in evolutionary study.)
wa:do
Evolution is genetics.... genetics is chemistry.... chemistry is physics and physics is math. Evolution is rooted in mathematics. (and there is quite a lot of math used in evolutionary study.)
wa:do
Snowber
Active Member
Speculative = Not based on fact or investigation, I don't understand how taking the number of nucleotides that has been scientifically shown is just speculation?
If a bee evolves to have a certain number of eyes, why not more? Surely it could help, why not evolve the brain of the bee to be able to use even more eyes? Is it because they don't "need" more eyes? Humans don't need a lot of what they are given, but we still have more than what we need.
fantome:
Mathematics also proves that the chance that all the laws required for life on a planet moves ever closer to 0. Instead this should only make us realize that there is a much more intelligent Being involved in the process, whether you think that Being is GOD or some aliens out to play with us.
Tumbleweed,
We can argue that nothing is "really real" and we can stop living or we can accept that when we say something is a "fact" in this world it is only according to our understanding of what a "fact" is. Many theists and non-theists alike believe that this world is really "not real" but if we're going to take a quote from a fallible man (whether he was right or not) and use it, in a sense, to say that we cannot rely on mathematics, I guess the same argument could be used to say that the evidence for evolution is really an illusion as well.
In an unrelated remark, there are some Muslims who believe GOD points out evolution in the Koran:
I can't quite say that I am ready to believe this is a literal statement though, it sounds more figurative. If it is the truth that we have a common ancestor with apes and we didn't get created straight from water/wet mud then may I be guided to see the truth for it. As it stands I don't believe there is "proof", whatever proof is anymore, to show it. Just interesting evidence, but as we know evidence isn't always enough, and there have been people who have been convicted wrongly over "overwhelming evidence" (ok maybe not to that extent).
Jose Fly,
I think the above statement is more of a play on words than an argument. Using the reverse we could say that a hummingbird is also my distant cousin even without true evidence. Plus, the biggest difference (and we can only hypothesize on how are "cousins" were) is the ability for logical thinking. If I live to see the data enough evidence of evolution provides "proof" or if there is any evidence of a human being having a wing bone so they can visit their relatives across the country, I'll re-think the argument.
To everyone:
I apologize that the "nerd rage" remark has distracted us from the topic, I should have known to ignore an ignorant post when I saw it.
Also I admit that my research on evolution was not enough to truly start an argument against it but I appreciate all the feedback. Besides unnecessary comments I feel it was a healthy discussion.
One last point (and this may not apply to everyone, I understand that):
Using the same logic many people don't believe in a god because they have not "seen" god, we can also ask how we can truly believe in evolution if we have not SEEN evolution (and when I say evolution I am speaking in regards to the evolution of humans).
Thank you for all your responses, I hope we all learn something from this (myself included).
Sorry I know my post is long enough but I forgot to mention one more thing
I see a lot mockery of Christians in this thread and I think it's only going to throw off us discussion. Also I think all of us can admit that no matter what religion or lack of religion of the people of the past, they've all made grave mistakes. Let's keep it clean folks.
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Gabethewiking
Active Member
Okay, first the last, Well, No, we do not know how they became extinct (to my knowledge), I pointed out that we speculate (based on accumulated evidence) they died out because of competition with sapiens, this could be territorial, food, etc, but really, I am not even saying that they died because of that, but simple because they could not manage as well in their enviroment as we could, and this made them die out (this is speculation from my side).
Now to the important bit, you think they are the same as humans, this brings the question further, do you also consider a Zebra and Horse to be the same as well then?
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A zebra isn't a primate, it's an ungulate, as are horses.
Neanderthals had several things that we have, as well, such as large brains, clothing, burials, etc. I see no reason to not think of them as humans. Different, yes, but not different enough.
The theory is that, unlike modern humans, they lacked the ability to adapt. This is a plausible explanation, and I accept it.
johnhanks
Well-Known Member
It's because even if the necessary genetic alterations occurred, sooner or later the bee would reach the stage where the marginal gain in vision would be offset by the extra cost of growing the new ommatidia and the brain tissue to process their input.
A hummingbird is your (very, very distant) cousin, but the common ancestor you share - probably an early reptile - didn't have wings, and neither did any human ancestor.
johnhanks
Well-Known Member
Can you outline a methodology by which that could be demonstrated?
Snowber
Active Member
For example, say a bird long ago, even though it wasn't an absolute necessity, grew an extra pair of wings even though growing those wings and knowing how to use them would offset the gain of growing those extra wings. This is just a random example, keep in mind.
johnhanks
Well-Known Member
Natural selection does not deal in ' absolute necessities'. Whatever gives marginal advantage will be selected for; what gives marginal disadvantage will be selected against. It is easy to show that if a feature gives its possessor even a 1% advantage over its competitors, after sufficient generations that feature will predominate in the population.
Snowber
Active Member
Interesting info, thanks. I guess in the end the best thing for me to do is to go out and research whatever I can about evolution to get more information on the subject.
Gabethewiking
Active Member
Well.. Yes, obviously you shouldn't make claims against things you know nothing about without any backing, right?
A good thing for you to know is this, Evolution is a fact, whatever people say this fact will not change, the question is if you are willing to accept this fact or if your religion is in the way preventing you to accept the realities of the world. Evolution is extremely interesting even for the lowest of laymen, we have so many areas we can discuss and all of them are amazing and there is new things discovered all the time that makes people such as myself even more astonished about the world we live in.
If you have little to no knowledge of Evolution, think of your parents, you are a human but you are slightly different from them, and their parents and their parents, and then you go down the thousands of years, after hundred thousand years you got
alot of change and with this, we would eventually define it as a slightly different species, taxonomic is arbitrary and only used to label things, we evolve and become different, yo uare different from your parents as they are different from their parents, the way this happens is explained by the Theory of Evolution and what we call the happening is known as Evolution.
It is just really cool stuff.
Snowber
Active Member
Well I believe the backing was in the mathematics presented in the original post. Also I am not discrediting evolution altogether, as I currently stand I believe evolution is true for certain species and is a divinely guided process.
My thinking methodology is this.. if GOD presented enough evidence, mathematical and "Scientific" within His Scriptures to show that He exists, and He tells you all living life was initiated from water and the human being was created from a certain kind of clay/wet mud, then it only goes to trust the source if it was proven.
I admit, Evolution is something I truly need to study myself before I make any other claims. But when I was growing up confused about the traditional Islam I use to follow I asked myself if there was any god at all. This is when I went out researching religions and, more importantly, evidence for a creator or evidence for a lack of a creator. That is when I came upon the miracle surrounding the number 19 in the Koran. At the time I was skeptical and it was not easy for me to accept it, besides, along with it meant that I would be giving up a lot of the "parental" teachings of my traditional religion and that is not easy for anyone to admit, but the evidence was so overwhelming that I could not bring myself to reject it either, even after having read the arguments which I believe were not strong enough to disown the evidence.
I know this isn't the place for this, but here are a few SIMPLE facts about the miracle of the number 19 in the Koran, they may or may not be enough to convince a person alone but there are also numbers in the Koran of such magnitude that they would have needed some powerful computers 1400 years ago to find them.
These are the first 7 facts taken from:
Simple Evidence of a Mathematical Miracle
1- The first verse 1:1 known as "Basmalla" consists of 19 letters.
2-This verse was revealed to Muhammed after 74:30, which states
"Over it is 19". not a coincidence.
3-The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is 19X6.
4-The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or 19X334 (6234 numbered
verses and 112 unnumbered verses (Basmalla). 6234+112=6346. notice also that 6+3+4+6= 19
5-The Basmalla occurs in the Quran 114 times, despite its conspicuous absence
from Sura 9 (it occurs twice in Sura 27) and 114 = 19 X 6
6-From the missing Basmalla of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalla of Sura 27, there are precisely 19 Suras.
7-It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 9+10+11+12..... . +26+27) is 342, or 19X 18
The structure of the Koran around the number 19 is beyond coincidence. I originally thought that this was just "playing with numbers." Something we've seen before the Koran, but the overwhelming evidence is difficult if not impossible to disprove.
Interestingly enough, the Koran is not the first Scripture to have this miracle and GOD points it out in a verse:
To read evidence of a Rabbi Judah the Pious discovering part of this miracle earlier please see:
Rabbi Judah the Pious and the Number 19
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
So, you believe in numerology?
You realize, of course, that you can basically formulate a mathematical equation that could reach any preconceived conclusion in an infinite variety of ways, right?
For example, some mathematicians looked for "prophecies" contained within the novel Moby Dick. What they found were allusions to 9 different assassinations throughout history, as well as clear mentions of the death of Princess Diana:
Assassinations Foretold in Moby Dick
Basically, you can derive any meaning or number from any arbitrarily designated series of letters or numbers and attribute it to whatever you want. It doesn't mean anything.
It's not a prophecy, it's just badly interpreted maths.
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Snowber
Active Member
Ahh but there is a big difference between looking through a long novel where as the page numbers increase your chances of finding matching letters increase in comparison to a revelation, where the number 19 is specifically mentioned, and the whole system is built upon the number 19.
In the system used in the link, they would skip letters if need be, it is based on a faulty way of finding the assassinations to begin with. I understand there is a lot of "numerology" and crossword puzzle prophecies out there but we can't let that divert us from a verifiable, unable to imitate proof, and GOD has issued the challenge in the Koran asking anyone to take up the challenge of writing similar works.
Also that this 'miracle' has evidence throughout history and throughout other scriptures is another piece of evidence we cannot simply ignore. There's "chance" and then there is "unexplainable coincidence".
Please look over all the evidence and I think you'll see it's not something that is easily replicated, especially having been revealed 1400 years ago.
Another interesting fact is that we are working with the #19 here, a unique prime number. There have been people who tried to use the #7 or some other number to "outsmart" the system and show that it is false but there is a BIG difference between mockery and truth.
I thank you for the link though, I was aware of systems as such but was not aware of the Moby Dick example.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
You're saying that it is easier to find specific words referencing specific events in a text than it is to find the number 19 by arbitrarily mixing up numbers, words and letters in no consistent way?
There have been thousands of religious texts made over the last couple of centuries alone. How do you know what does and doesn't qualify?
What's more, do you even realize how faulty your logic is in finding the number 19 in the Koran? You just look where you would find 19 without any specific reason for looking there. Look again:
1- The first verse 1:1 known as "Basmalla" consists of 19 letters. (Why just the first verse?)
2-This verse was revealed to Muhammed after 74:30, which states
"Over it is 19". not a coincidence. (Again, you have not provided context.)
3-The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is 19X6. (Again, this is arbitrary. 114 is also 57+57, why is 57 not a sacred number?)
4-The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or 19X334 (6234 numbered
verses and 112 unnumbered verses (Basmalla). 6234+112=6346. notice also that 6+3+4+6=19 (Again, arbitrary.)
5-The Basmalla occurs in the Quran 114 times, despite its conspicuous absence from Sura 9 (it occurs twice in Sura 27) and 114 = 19 X 6 (Using the same number and arbitrarily applying the same equation to an entirely unrelated event)
6-From the missing Basmalla of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalla of Sura 27, there are precisely 19 Suras. (Still, no patten is forming. You are just looking for the number 19 where you know it occurs and mentioning it as if it is significant. I also have a cousin who is 19 years old, should you count them too?)
7-It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 9+10+11+12..... . +26+27) is 342, or 19X 18[/I] (Another meaningless equation with no means or application.)
Or, just regular "coincidence". In fact, this is neither chance, unexplainable nor coincidence. It is you asserting your preconceived ideas upon a string of unrelated facts and attempting to find a single number within each by any means you can. You could do the same with practically any book in history.
In fact, I think I will do this right now.
1. Hamlet's title is six letters long.
2. "To be, or not to be" is six words.
3. The first two words of the sixth line of Hamlet's soliloquy are "No more", which is six letters.
4. The play was first performed around 1600.
5. In the final act, six dead bodies are seen on stage (Hamlet, Claudius, Gerturde, Laertes, Osric and Ophelia).
6. Shakespeare died in 1616.
7. Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony is the "Hamlet fantasy overture".
And this is just off the top of my head without making any effort or doing any research. Of course, if this doesn't convince you I'd be happy to find more.
I already have, and I find your evidence lacking.
And apparently that difference is an arbitrary number of meaningless digits.
Personally, I think the assassination prophecies in Moby Dick are far more impressive than the number 19 appearing a few times in the Koran. If that does not strike you, then obviously you're not being honest with yourself.
aymen amir
peace
I am actually a Muslim who does not follow Hadith or Sunnah but the Quran alone.
may i ask why you don't follow the sunnah ... were are clearly told to follow the sunnah in the QURAN its self by sunnah i mean the way of the prophet who actually thought us the QURAN ..{Say (O, Muhammad): “If you love Allâh, then follow me, Allâh will love you
and forgive you your sins. And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”}; [3:31].
may i ask why you don't follow the sunnah ... were are clearly told to follow the sunnah in the QURAN its self by sunnah i mean the way of the prophet who actually thought us the QURAN ..{Say (O, Muhammad): “If you love Allâh, then follow me, Allâh will love you
and forgive you your sins. And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”}; [3:31].