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Gravitational waves in Newton theory are 4-th order, in Einstein's are 2-nd!!!

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by questfortruth, Oct 23, 2017.

  1. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    This is a Gish Gallop. A tactic to overwhelm the opposing debater.

    But I will take this:

    "By the way, why would you expect the bible to say anything else, considering that this was the understanding of those times and places where the quotes above were written?"

    The truth. Like this: Job 26:7.

    There's some science for ya!
     
  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Job 26:7
    7 He stretches out the north over the void
    and hangs the earth on nothing.​

    Correct, it doesn't hang on anything. It sits.

    1 Samuel 2:8
    8 He raises up the poor from the dust;
    he lifts the needy from the ash heap
    to make them sit with princes
    and inherit a seat of honor.
    For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's,
    and on them he has set the world.

    and

    Psalm 104:5
    He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

    .
     
  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I assure you I'm not a professional liar as was the late Duane.
    The statement, part of a poem, is: "He stretches out the north over the void, / and hangs the earth upon nothing."

    The most you can say for this is that its author didn't think the flat earth had legs like a table.

    And you, like all the creos of my experience before you, do not answer the actual question.

    You also forgot to tell me how much heat is generated by rain falling from at least 5.5 miles / 9 km up, at the rate of one meter of water on the entire surface of the earth every 6min 40sec for 40 days. What's the answer?

    Let me guess that it's too big to allow any association between the 'frozen upright' animals in your report and our pretended Flood scenario. But if you disagree, set out the science and the maths that clear the point up.


    One other point: why don't Creationists carry out objective tests to see what parts of the bible are accurate reflections of reality, and which are not? I guess that boils down to, What test do Creationists use to determine whether any statement purportedly about reality is true or not? I'll be interested to hear your answer.
     
    #103 blü 2, Oct 20, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
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  4. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    This tells me right here, that you didn't read my post!

    I dealt with this issue already in the OP.
     
  5. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Correct! In Isaiah 40: 22; where it is said; "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, etc," the Hebrew term 'chug' is used, and according to Young's Analytical Concordance, 'chug' can be translated as; Circle, Arch, Dome, and Compass.
     
  6. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    This is the condensed account of creation as recorded in Genesis’.....…”In the beginning God created the universe, and the earth was formless and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and God’s active force/Spirit was moving on the face of the waters. Then God said let there be light.”

    Here is the scientific theory of creation........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, which in my opinion was the White Hole at the end of the Great Abyss into which the previous universe had descended, this event spewed out a liquid like soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions upon trillions of degrees, it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space. But there was momentum within that ever-cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which wave particles are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy, and are not really particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum.

    One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material.

    But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron.

    As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors] wherein was formed the more heavyer elements from which the galaxies would later be created.

    And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.

    Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped. The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed.

    Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, until evening descended at the close of the first day, as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.

    According to the ancient cultures, we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time. A universe that exists in the two states of seemingly visible matter and invisible energy=anti-matter.

    “Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

    The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

    ‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

    The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

    Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc, and all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

    A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

    The second DAY [Period of universal activity] begins by bringing to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.
     
  7. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Continued from post # 106. The second creative day.

    This is one scientific theory as to the creation of our solar system some 9 billion years after the creation of those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the expanding space.

    Whether or not a better theory than that which we have today will develop, time will tell.

    This theory would appear to support the biblical statement, that the process of the division of the waters above from the waters below, [See Genesis 1: 6; KJV] or the division of the solar nebula cloud from the greater Galactic nebula cloud, began some five billion years ago, and that the whole process began with the division of the waters (cloud) above, from the waters (Cloud) below from which the entire Solar system was created. This took just a few hundred million years, about 400 million years in fact, and the creation of our entire solar system was completed by about 4.6 billion years ago.

    It was from the galactic nebular cloud, which was the residue of the heaver elements that were exploded off with the great super nova, which was the death of one of those gigantic earlier generation Stars that our Milky-Way galaxy would be formed in the second creative period=day, as the active universal forces brought about a division of the Solar nebular cloud [The Waters Below] from the Galactic nebular cloud [The Waters Above].

    The accretion of the galactic nebula disk, which was being attracted to the central Black Hole around which it had begun to orbit, transferred angular momentum outward as it transferred mass inward, it was this that caused our solar nebula to begin to rotate and condense inward, bringing a division of the solar cloud, from the galactic cloud, or the waters above from the waters below.

    Within the greater galactic nebular cloud, which was slowly beginning to revolve around the Black Hole that anchored it in space, a piece of the larger cloud complex started to collapse about five billion years ago. The cloud complex had already been "polluted" with dust grains from previous generations of stars, so it was possible to form the rocky terrestrial planets as gravity pulled the gas and dust together, forming a solar nebula. As the cloud=waters of the solar nebula collapsed, its slight rotation increased. This is because of the conservation of angular momentum.

    Just like a dancer who spins faster as she pulls in her arms, the cloud began to spin as it collapsed. Eventually, the cloud grew hotter and denser in the centre, with a disk of gas and dust surrounding it that was hot in the centre but cool at the edges. As the disk got thinner and thinner, particles began to stick together and form clumps. Some clumps got bigger, as particles and small clumps stuck to them, eventually forming planets or moons. Genesis 1: 6—9. As the heavenly cloud was gathered together in one place, dry land, or rather planets began to form. Near the centre of the condensing cloud, where planets like earth formed, only rocky material could stand the great heat. Icy matter settled in the outer regions of the disk along with rocky material, where the giant planets like Jupiter formed.

    As the cloud continued to fall in, the centre would get so hot that it would eventually become a star and with a strong stellar wind, would blow away most of the gas and dust from which the planets of the solar system had been formed.

    By studying meteorites, which are thought to be left over from this early phase of the solar system, scientists have found that the solar system is about 4.6 billion years old! As the solar nebula collapsed, the gas and dust heated up through collisions among the particles. The solar nebula heated up to around 3000 K so everything was in a gaseous form. The solar nebula's composition was similar to the present-day Sun's composition: about 93% hydrogen, 6% helium, and about 1% silicates and iron, and the density of the gas and dust increased toward the core where the proto-sun was: [PROTO SUN.]. The inner, denser regions collapsed more quickly than the outer regions.

    Around Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun the temperature was cool enough to freeze water (the so-called "snow line" or "frost line"). Further out from the proto-Sun, ammonia and methane were able to condense. There was a significant amount of water closer to the Proto-sun, but could not condense. When the solar nebula stopped collapsing it began cooling, though the core that would later form the Sun remained hot.

    This meant that the outer parts of the solar nebula cooled off more than the inner parts closer to the hot proto-Sun. Only metal and rock materials could condense (solidify) at the high temperatures close to the proto-Sun. Therefore, the metal and rock materials could condense in all the places where the planets were forming. Volatile materials (like water, methane and ammonia) could only condense in the outer parts of the solar nebula.

    Because the density of the solar nebula material increased inward, there was more water at Jupiter's distance than at the distances of Saturn, Uranus, or Neptune. The greater amount of water ice at Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun helped it grow larger than the other planets. Although, there was more water closer to the proto-Sun than Jupiter, that water was too warm to condense. Material with the highest freezing temperatures condensed to form the chondrules that were then incorporated in lower freezing temperature material. Chondrules (from Ancient Greek chondros, meaning grain) are round grains found in chondrites. Chondrules form as molten or partially molten droplets in space before being accreted to their parent asteroids.

    Any material that later became part of a planet underwent further heating and processing when the planet differentiated so the heavy metals sunk to the planet's core and lighter metals floated up to nearer the surface.

    Because of its great compression, the core of the proto-Sun finally reached about 10 million Kelvin and after the planets of the solar system had been created, the hydrogen nuclei started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy. It was then that the proto-Sun "TURNED ON" and became our Sun, which produced the strong winds called T-Tauri winds named after the prototype star in the constellation Taurus.

    These winds swept out the rest of the nebula that was not already incorporated into the planets. With most of the cocoon gas blown away, the new star itself becomes visible to the outside for the first time. This whole process took just a few hundred million years and was finished by about 4.6 billion years ago. At the distance of about one light year from the earth, is the great icy Dome, that is the boundary of the firmament of our heavens, in which the sun, moon, and planets of our solar system were created.

    According to the Genesis narrative, it is on the second day that the Lord calls for a "firmament" to be in the "midst of the waters" to divide the waters:

    "And God said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (or within) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day." (Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

    The term "firmament" according to the Creation account, is taken from the Hebrew: רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah, which is defined by many scholars as an expanse, or the visible arch of the sky:—firmament, but a primitive root; “רָקַע raqa` raw-kah” means, to pound, hammer, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

    The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure, and in some modern Bibles many modern scholars translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault". The Hebrew language appears to imply that the firmament is a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament, which can now be seen as the spherical cloud of comets (Icy vault) in which our solar system was created from the solar nebula cloud that was divided from the greater galactic nebula cloud.

    "And God said, “Let there be lights within the firmament or vault to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

    (Genesis 1:14-16 KJV) This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars=planets of our solar system, are "within" the firmament. Therefore, the waters that are "above the firmament=dome/vault" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars=planets of our solar system, revealing that the waters which are referred to in Psalms 148:4; "Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens," belong to the greater galactic nebula cloud which has become our Milky Way Galaxy.

    The Oort cloud, or the Opik-Oort cloud, which is named after Jan Oort, is a spherical cloud that surrounds our solar system, a cloud of predominantly icy objects such as comets that are comprised of mainly hydrogen, oxygen=water, ammonia and methane, and extends up to about a light year from the sun and defines the cosmographical boundary of our Solar System and the region of the suns gravitational dominance. Here is the Firmament, the great spherical vault within which is found the sun, moons and planets of our solar system, the dome of ice above us.

    Knowing that the planets of our solar system were already created before the sun came into existence when the hydrogen nuclei within the condensing solar cloud started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy thereby creating our sun, we must now ask the question, “Did life on earth begin to evolve before the creation of the sun?” As is recorded in the Bible. And can life exist without sunlight? Proof of this is to be found in the darkest depths of our oceans, where life has evolved over six miles beneath the surface where sunlight does not and cannot penetrate. This subject will be discussed at a later stage.
     
  8. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    I really like your attempts to compare the creation story (stories) to Modern Cosmology. Well done and tried :) And I´ll come with some of my own perceptions on this, based on a "more natural approach".

    IMO you cannot make a connection to a Big Bang as the ancient stories of creation specifically speaks of a creation in the ancient known part of the Universe, the local Milky Way.
    I agree very much in the general E&M explanation of formation but not in that "earth" = The Earth in this early stage of this creation story. In the beginning there was no "firm matter" = "soiled forms" or "solid forms". This misinterpretation of "soil = the Earth" instead of "the first solid matter", creates the biblical interpretation of the "two time creation of the Earth" problem.
    Agreed. This prime light is IMO the central light in the Milky Way from where the Solar System is created.
    I think you´re going much to much in "Standard Cosmology" mode here :) And IMO galaxies are not created from big stars, it´s the other way around.
    They "only" knew of the Milky Way Galaxy. Having said that, the ancient world view really was a kind of "an eternal oscillating" world of 1) creation/formation; 2) dissolution and 3) re-formation.
    All this is just natural "evolutionary steps".
    If the ancient stories of creation are correct interpreted and connected to the correct celestial and cosmological context, a better theory/model can never be found.
    I largely go along with that. "Clouds" is mythically described as "rivers and waters in the Sky", "hence the division of waters" in the biblical telling.
    Again too Standard Cosmology mode IMO. I agree in the "galactic nebulae" but I would go down the "electromagnetic road" and have the EM to attract the gaseous plasma into the spherical center of the magnetic circuit. (Nuclear formation via the Z-Pinch effect)
    Never mind "accretion" as in the Standard Model. EM forces naturally binds gases and particles together which contracts into the EM circuital center as notised above. The very electric double helical current provides both rotational and orbital motions all over the places in micro- and macro cosmos.
    In the principle, yes. Except from the cloud was drawn in by the EM circuit and stars (and subsequently planets) formed via the Z-Pinch effect.
    This "firmament" resembles in my opinion the very contours of the Milky Way arching over the night Sky and this fits nicely to your next:
    The entire Solar System is located in the galactic firmament.
    As said above: The biblical prime term "earth" = soil is misinterpreted to resemble the Earth which in fact is created almost similar with the Sun and the other planets. So this question is out of the equation as a result of misinterpretation.

    Well that´s all from me for now :) As said in my initial comment, I´m taking a very natural approach both in the mythical and cosmological department and I´m having a specific Quantum Mechanical EM approach on the general formation - but i refuse other speculative parts connected to the QM as several universes and all that jazz.

    Looking forward to hear from you in this matter.

    Cheers
    Native
     
  9. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Do you agree, that the sun which is at the centre of our solar system did not burst into life until after the planets were created, as revealed in the Holy Scriptures?

    Do you believe that our solar system is a closed system within the Milky Way Galaxy?

    Direct evidence for a supermassive black hole – a plot of the orbital motion of the star S2 around the centre of the Milky Way. From these observations, astronomers have inferred that a supermassive black hole of about 3 million solar masses lurks at the centre of our galaxy.

    Our Milky Way galaxy is said to be anchored in space by that super Black hole, which has a mass of over three million suns, and around the Super Black Hole at the centre of our Galaxy, orbits many other black holes, which were once at the centre of other lesser galactic bodies that have merged with ours.

    The larger Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Major) and the smaller Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Minor) are two galaxies that are orbiting our Milky Way galaxy which orbits the central Super Black Hole to which those Magellanic Clouds are being gathered and will one day merge with our galaxy.

    The earlier explanations as to a mysterious stream of Gas, which appeared to stretch from them to our galaxy, was the result of gravitational interaction between the two Magellanic clouds, and so, was thought to be coming from them. But researchers from the Leibniz institute for Astrophysics in Germany, taking into account, the best understanding of the diffuse hot Gas that surrounds our Milky Way [Its Corona] couldn’t get that stream of Gas to form. So they came to the conclusion that they simply don’t understand the Milky way’s corona very well, But another possible explanation put forward by them, is that, rather than originating from the Magellanic Clouds, that stream of Gas could be coming from a different Galaxy altogether, which is being devoured, as it plunges into our Milky Way.

    The Super Black Hole at the centre of our being will continue to grow as it devours the other lesser black Holes, dying stars, and planets within this galaxy. And yet our galaxy is but one of billions of galaxies that are falling in toward the super gravitational anomaly that is called the ‘Great Attractor’

    In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere Kilo-metres.

    According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein–Rosen bridge.

    The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the minor star of our solar system, can only form a White Dwarf, the gravitational collapse of bigger stars can create a neutron star, or a Black Hole, depending on its mass, but not necessarily a Worm Hole.

    A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travelers through space, although, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as any material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics as it would be ripped to pieces and reconverted to the electromagnetic energy from which it was created..

    But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, which cannot be created nor ever destroyed, I personally have no doubts that one day new technology will develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reconstruct them to their original form, with no damage done. (Beam us up Scotty) Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the universe, they could also connect two different universes.

    Science is still coming to grips with Black Holes, which are believed to be at the centre of all galaxies, and Black Holes devour everything of lesser mass that comes in contact with them.

    Which came first Native? The galaxies, or the black Holes at the centre of the galaxies?

    You have stated that in your opinion, galaxies are not created from big stars, it´s the other way around. So then, could you supply the evidence to explain how you believe that the super Black Hole at the centre of the Milky Way galaxy was created from another galaxy, other than beginning with an existing Black Hole that gathers to itself, anything that is of lesser mass?

    And perhaps you might care to explain 'WHAT WAS LEFT' after those massive first generation hydrogen stars, which would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, met their violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves?
     
  10. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    When looking at the planetary motions around the Sun, I take the planets to be formed of the same larger pre-solar sphere and OUT of this sphere in the early days of creation. In this sense both the Sun and planets were formed similary.
    Maybe "a local system" in the Milky Way is a better way to describe the Solar System location and motion? Otherwise it´s logical to take the SS to be an integrated part of the galactic formation and motion.
    As said before I don´t believe in these modern terms at all as my approach to cosmology is "electromagnetic and plasmatic" in general. There are NO direct observation of "black holes", "dark matter" and "dark energy". They are all simple assumptions and hindsigt biases made to confirm former assumptions in the "standard models" of which some are directly contradicted (galactic rotation anomaly/curve).
    All this is much too speculative and far fetched for me :)
    I dismiss "black holes"as these just represent a swirling funnel of formation in the galaxies, much like the funnel in a Thunderstorm. The galactic funnel is created as a result of a swirling central electric current and it´s perpendicular magnetic field which creates the galactic disk.
    Galaxies are made of gas and dust wich is assembled electromagnetically and becomes stars and planets everywhere in the galaxy. This is the very process in all ancient cultural stories of creation.
    I don´t believe in these "cosmic explosions" and "collapses" at all. The observation of a so called "super-nova" is just an EM discharge from a star which occurs several times for the same star, thus busting the general idea of "super-nova" explosions. Similar periodical discharges as a principle is also is observed in the Sun.

    As you see, I´m much more confident with the EM (Quantum ideas) of everything and I´m also more pleased to take the ancient myths to account for a cosmological understanding as well.
     
    #110 Native, Jun 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
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