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Gravitational waves in Newton theory are 4-th order, in Einstein's are 2-nd!!!

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
23He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

It doesn't say how many cubits were around it, but that it took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it. The conclusion is that it was less than thirty cubits.

It says 10 cubits from rim to rim and 30 cubits round it.

No the conclusion is that it says "to measure around it." Not no measure half a cubit out from it but around it. In any case, if the circle as less than 30 cubits (as is would be if it was inside the line) this makes the biblical Pi as less than 3, even more of an error.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
It says 10 cubits from rim to rim and 30 cubits round it.

No the conclusion is that it says "to measure around it." Not no measure half a cubit out from it but around it. In any case, if the circle as less than 30 cubits (as is would be if it was inside the line) this makes the biblical Pi as less than 3, even more of an error.

Well, he still could have measured out the line, marked it and continued measuring. There is no definite conclusion that pi = 3.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Well, he still could have measured out the line, marked it and continued measuring. There is no definite conclusion that pi = 3.


Interpretation and apologetics again.

According to the numbers in the bible pi is 3, according to your apologetics its less than three.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Measured round it... Round it... Nothing too difficult to understand is there.

No figure for the distance around it was given. He just said what he used to measure it. That's not hard to understand unless you want to read something in there that isn't there.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
No figure for the distance around it was given. He just said what he used to measure it. That's not hard to understand unless you want to read something in there that isn't there.


Let me quote from the bible..

NIV He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

NLT Then Huram cast a great round basin, 15 feet across from rim to rim, called the Sea. It was 7- 1/2 feet deep and about 45 feet in circumference

NASB Now he made the sea of cast metal ten cubits from brim to brim, circular in form, and its height was five cubits, and thirty cubits in circumference.

KJB And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it wasround all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

ISV Hiram also made a sea of cast metal ten cubits from brim to brim, circular in shape and five cubits and 30 cubits in its inner circumference.

etc... etc.. etc.

So which bible should we use?
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Let me quote from the bible..

NIV He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

NLT Then Huram cast a great round basin, 15 feet across from rim to rim, called the Sea. It was 7- 1/2 feet deep and about 45 feet in circumference

NASB Now he made the sea of cast metal ten cubits from brim to brim, circular in form, and its height was five cubits, and thirty cubits in circumference.

KJB And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it wasround all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

ISV Hiram also made a sea of cast metal ten cubits from brim to brim, circular in shape and five cubits and 30 cubits in its inner circumference.

etc... etc.. etc.

So which bible should we use?

Good try. But no cigar. The thirty cubit line was used. The figure is not given. The passage does not say that it was thirty cubits in circumference. The NASB and ISV were mistranslated.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Good try. But no cigar. The thirty cubit line was used. The figure is not given. The passage does not say that it was thirty cubits in circumference. The NASB and ISV were mistranslated.

Ahh, right, any bible you don't agree with is mistranslated???

There are more than 200 English language bibles, who knows how many in other languages. So perhaps you would like Latin of the Vulgate, closer to original than any current translation

Fecit quoque mare fusile decem cubitorum a labio usque ad labium, rotundum in circuitu. quinque cubitorum altitudo ejus, et resticula triginta cubitorum cingebat illud per circuitum...

Apologetics can't change the wording or meaning, only peoples interpretations
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Ahh, right, any bible you don't agree with is mistranslated???

There are more than 200 English language bibles, who knows how many in other languages. So perhaps you would like Latin of the Vulgate, closer to original than any current translation

Fecit quoque mare fusile decem cubitorum a labio usque ad labium, rotundum in circuitu. quinque cubitorum altitudo ejus, et resticula triginta cubitorum cingebat illud per circuitum...

Apologetics can't change the wording or meaning, only peoples interpretations

Well, they couldn't have all been translated correctly else they'd say the same thing. As you have shown, they clearly do not show exactly the same thing. Some translations are better than others.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Well, they couldn't have all been translated correctly else they'd say the same thing. As you have shown, they clearly do not show exactly the same thing. Some translations are better than others.

The vulgate is the closest to the original christian (of which no copies exist) compiled less then a century after the original.

That says the line of the circumference was 30 cubits. Not the line used to measure the circumference but the line of the circumference.

None say your line was used to take repeated measurements as you imply
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
The vulgate is the closest to the original christian (of which no copies exist) compiled less then a century after the original.

That says the line of the circumference was 30 cubits. Not the line used to measure the circumference but the line of the circumference.

None say your line was used to take repeated measurements as you imply

If that is the case, and I doubt it is, then the individual doing the measuring got it wrong or the individual writing it down got it wrong. No biggie.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have no concerns at all, you're the one asking the questions, not me.
You're not concerned that you can't answer simple questions about your own position?

That you don't actually know what you're talking about?

I'm not so much surprised as dismayed on your behalf.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The vulgate is the closest to the original christian (of which no copies exist) compiled less then a century after the original.
Hieronumos / Jerome translated the gospels from Greek to Latin from about 385 on, and the rest of the bible from then till after 400 CE.

The Codex Vaticanus (in Greek) is thought to have been compiled by 325 or so. We don't know whether Jerome used it, or partly used it, but I mention it and the Codex Siniaticus (in Greek, from the mid 300s) because they're both earlier than him. Those two Codices preserve the earliest 'complete' NT texts that we have.

(For much of the Tanakh, the Septuagint (starting from the 3rd cent BCE) preserves a Greek translation of Hebrew text as it then stood.)

The very readable respected scholar Bart Ehrman has written extensively on what we know of early Christian texts, eg his books with the revealing titles Misquoting Jesus, Forged, and The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
If that is the case, and I doubt it is, then the individual doing the measuring got it wrong or the individual writing it down got it wrong. No biggie.

The bible is wrong, on many aspects. Big biggie because so many people consider it gospel.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I suspect we may have been here before. Still, you really don't bother to read your bible, do you, so here, or here again, is a sample of quotes that will tell you a little about the cosmology of the ancients. Enjoy!

1. Flat earth. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Genesis 1
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. ... 6 And God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

2. Geocentry. The earth is flat and the sun goes round it.
Joshua 10
12 Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon.” 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

3. Geocentry, earth immovable.
1 Chronicles 16:
29 Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name; bring an offering, and come before him! Worship the LORD in holy array; 30 tremble before him, all the earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.

4. Geocentry, earth immovable.
Job 9
6 who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble; 7 who commands the sun, and it does not rise; who seals up the stars; 8 who alone stretched out the heavens, and trampled the waves of the sea;

5. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome
Job 22
12 “Is not God high in the heavens? See the highest stars, how lofty they are! 13 Therefore you say, ‘What does God know? Can he judge through the deep darkness? 14 Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven.’

6. The dome of the sky rests on pillars.
Job 26:
11 “The pillars of heaven tremble, and are astounded at his rebuke.”

7. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Job 37
18 Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?

8. The stars are adjacent to each other and the earth on the fixed dome.
Job 38
7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

9. The earth is flat.
Job 38:
13 That it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?

10. The earth is flat. The sun goes round it.
Psalm 19
4 yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, 5 which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs its course with joy. 6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.

11. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 93:
1 The LORD reigns; he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved;

12. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 96
10 Say among the nations, “The LORD reigns! Yea, the world is established, it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.”

13. Geocentry. The earth is fixed. The earth is flat and rests on foundations.
Psalm 102
25 Of old thou didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

14. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 104
5 Thou didst set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be shaken.

15. Geocentry. The earth is fixed. The earth is flat.
Ecclesiastes 1:
5 “The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.”

16. The earth is flat, like a table.
Isaiah 11:
12 And he will raise an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

17. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Isaiah 14
13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’

18. The earth is flat, like a plate.
Isaiah 40
22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

19. The heavens go round the earth.
Isaiah 45
12 I made the earth, and created man upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.

20. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Isaiah 48
13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

21. The earth is flat like a table.
Jeremiah 16:
19 O LORD, my strength, and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to thee shall the nations come from the ends of the earth, and say, Our fathers have inherited naught but lies, worthless and things in which there is no profit.

22. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Ezekiel 1
22 Over the heads of the living creatures there was the likeness of a firmament, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads. 23 And under the firmament their wings were stretched out straight, one toward another; and each creature had two wings covering its body. 24 And when they went, I heard the sound of their wings like the sound of many waters, like the thunder of the Almighty, a sound of tumult like the sound of a host; when they stood still, they let down their wings. 25 And there came a voice from above the firmament over their heads; when they stood still, they let down their wings. 26 And above the firmament over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness as it were of a human form.

23. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Ezekiel 10
1 Then I looked, and behold, on the firmament that was over the heads of the cherubim there appeared above them something like a sapphire, in form resembling a throne.

24. The earth is flat.
Daniel 4
10 The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. 11 The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth

25. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Amos 9:
6 who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and founds his vault upon the earth,

26. The earth is flat.
Matthew 4
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them.

27. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome. The stars are affixed to the firmament. If they come loose they will fall to earth.
Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;

28. The earth is flat.
Revelation 1
7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

29. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome. The stars are affixed to it. If they come loose they will fall to earth. The earth is flat.
Revelation 6
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale; 14 the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

30. The earth is flat like a table.
Revelation 7:
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea, or against any tree.
By the way, why would you expect the bible to say anything else, considering that this was the understanding of those times and places where the quotes above were written?

I never seem to get a clear answer to that question.
Your interpretation is really off! (Of course, I’m sure you copy/pasted, right? So maybe it’s not yours.)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your interpretation is really off! (Of course, I’m sure you copy/pasted, right? So maybe it’s not yours.)
Oh, I had a little help, but it's mine all right.

And if you can't read English when it says things you find inconvenient, don't blame me.
 
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