Going to hell without committing a sin>

[Thief]

EDIT- Forgot to add - the Bible does not say Jesus is an actual son of God/trinity.

He is a son of God in the same sense as King David and many others. Even the Hebrew are called sons of God.

The Adversary TESTS to make sure one is ready.

The story tells us Jesus was tested, and passed the test.

He then starts on his mission.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted (TESTED) of the devil. (That word is actually πειράζω - peirazō - To TEST.)

Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter (TESTER) came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

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all of the above makes a greater notation to the over all scheme of things.

Man was formed to in turn, form unique spirit.
that formation of spirit can result in 'someone' not able to cross over into heaven is no surprise to me.

There is an old story of rebellion and the devil with his sympathizers were cast out.

the devil then has a personal grudge that any man might gain entry.....where he, the devil, may no longer go.

the devil may well tempt a man.....but I don't believe God put the devil to the task.

 

[McBell]

you already know......I hold no dogma....

I know you dogmatically make that claim.

Though I suspect it is merely so you can pick and choose at will.

 

[Ingledsva]

...

the devil may well tempt a man.....but I don't believe God put the devil to the task.

It says Elohiym created everything - and it was GOOD.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Satan isn't evil in Tanakh. Not even in Job. YHVH points Job out, and Satan makes a logical comment, - then YHVH tells Satan to test him.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

The words for - considered - mean - to do/consider - the heart/mettle. In other words YHVH asks if Satan has tested the mettle of Job.

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Number 9 show Satan's surprise at this, - because Job has been near perfect. Why would YHVH say this?

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

The translation makes it look like Satan is making a statement, - but if you look at it in the Hebrew - he is asking. Surely if you do this - he will .....

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

It is in Christian theology - that Satan becomes evil for evil's sake.


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[Ingledsva]

all of the above makes a greater notation to the over all scheme of things.

Man was formed to in turn, form unique spirit.
that formation of spirit can result in 'someone' not able to cross over into heaven is no surprise to me.

There is an old story of rebellion and the devil with his sympathizers were cast out.

the devil then has a personal grudge that any man might gain entry.....where he, the devil, may no longer go.

the devil may well tempt a man.....but I don't believe God put the devil to the task.

I don't know which of the stories you are referring to - but - LATER - misunderstanding of Tanakh stories - did lead to fallen Satan stories.

Such as the fall of a King of Babylon - mistakenly turned into a fall of Satan by Christians. See Isaiah 14.

Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor failed! the golden city failed!

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

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[Apphus]

all of the above makes a greater notation to the over all scheme of things.

Man was formed to in turn, form unique spirit.
that formation of spirit can result in 'someone' not able to cross over into heaven is no surprise to me.

There is an old story of rebellion and the devil with his sympathizers were cast out.

the devil then has a personal grudge that any man might gain entry.....where he, the devil, may no longer go.

the devil may well tempt a man.....but I don't believe God put the devil to the task.

It says Elohiym created everything - and it was GOOD.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Satan isn't evil in Tanakh. Not even in Job. YHVH points Job out, and Satan makes a logical comment, - then YHVH tells Satan to test him.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

The words for - considered - mean - to do/consider - the heart/mettle. In other words YHVH asks if Satan has tested the mettle of Job.

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Number 9 show Satan's surprise at this, - because Job has been near perfect. Why would YHVH say this?

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

The translation makes it look like Satan is making a statement, - but if you look at it in the Hebrew - he is asking. Surely if you do this - he will .....

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

It is in Christian theology - that Satan becomes evil for evil's sake.


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Satan was made to be evil, that's his only purpose. From Genesis to revelation.

Isaiah 45:7 -I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things

Amos 3:6 -Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

From the very beginning

Revelations 12:9 -And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

In case you didn't make the connection the serpent in the garden was Satan.

 

[Ingledsva]

Satan was made to be evil, that's his only purpose. From Genesis to revelation.

Isaiah 45:7 -I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things

Amos 3:6 -Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

From the very beginning

Revelations 12:9 -And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

In case you didn't make the connection the serpent in the garden was Satan.

And WHERE in Tanakh does it say YHVH created Satan EVIL?????

NOWHERE!!!

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[Thief]

the words of the serpent were intended to interfere with the garden event.
I believe God knew the fallen would some day meet with Man.....
the alleged test may have been just that ....a test

but I say Man IS that creature intended to curiosity...even as death is pending.
the attempt to interfere failed.

 

[Thief]

Satan was made to be evil, that's his only purpose.

In case you didn't make the connection the serpent in the garden was Satan.

not buying that.
the angelic have free will......so I believe....

Man was created a little less than the angelic.....Psalms....

we have freewill.....I assume the same unto greater life.

I have a story that accounts for the condition....haven fallen....
it is the result of freewill

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I think the Serpent and Satan are two different characters - that later got strung together.

Satan is a servant of YHVH - his job is to be the adversary - to put stumbling blocks in our paths - to test us.*

John seems to believe they are one and the same.

Rev 12:8-9 (ESVST) . 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world

Rev 20:2 (ESVST) 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,


If satan is God's servant, meaning he's doing the will of God by putting stumbling blocks in our path, why is God going to destroy him? Where does the Bible teach that one is destroyed for being a servant of God and doing the will of God?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Everyone that questions why God does this, and why God does that, should read Romans. Who are we to question anything God has done?

Rom 9:19-24 (ESVST) 19 You will say to me then, " Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, " Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory — 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Why focus on the things that don't matter? All that matters now is, God sent His only begotten Son so we can have peace with God. Let's submit ourselves to God, resist the devil and he will flee and none of these trivial questions will plague us any longer!

Rom 5:1 (ESVST) 1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jam 4:7 (ESVST) 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

 

[Ingledsva]

John seems to believe they are one and the same.

Rev 12:8-9 (ESVST) . 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world

Rev 20:2 (ESVST) 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,


If satan is God's servant, meaning he's doing the will of God by putting stumbling blocks in our path, why is God going to destroy him? Where does the Bible teach that one is destroyed for being a servant of God and doing the will of God?

It doesn't matter what the much later NT John thinks.

That later group obviously no longer understood Tanakh.

Nowhere in Tanakh does it say Satan is evil.

Nowhere in Tanakh does Satan fall.

Nowhere in Tanakh does it say Satan will be destroyed.

Nowhere in Tanakh is Satan called a dragon, or even a serpent.

These things are all made up by the later - misunderstanding - group.

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[Ingledsva]

Everyone that questions why God does this, and why God does that, should read Romans. Who are we to question anything God has done?

Rom 9:19-24 (ESVST) 19 You will say to me then, " Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, " Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory — 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Why focus on the things that don't matter? All that matters now is, God sent His only begotten Son so we can have peace with God. Let's submit ourselves to God, resist the devil and he will flee and none of these trivial questions will plague us any longer!

Rom 5:1 (ESVST) 1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jam 4:7 (ESVST) 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Questioning God???

We are questioning the validity of a group of writings that claims to be from God.

Since the actions of the "God" recorded in the Bible are often heinous, - and very obviously from a patriarchal group, - it appears the Bible is written by men whom want to rape, own women, hold slaves, kill others down to the children, and dumb animals - for land, and murder others for being different, etc.

We are told this God is Jealous, angry, murders children, etc. In multiple stories women and children are murdered or raped for the crimes of men, - again obviously patriarchy, - not God.

Why anyone would follow this idea of a "God," - is beyond me.

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[Thief]

Questioning God???

We are questioning the validity of a group of writings that claims to be from God.

Since the actions of the "God" recorded in the Bible are often heinous, - and very obviously from a patriarchal group, - it appears the Bible is written by men whom want to rape, own women, hold slaves, kill others down to the children, and dumb animals - for land, and murder others for being different, etc.

We are told this God is Jealous, angry, murders children, etc. In multiple stories women and children are murdered or raped for the crimes of men, - again obviously patriarchy, - not God.

Why anyone would follow this idea of a "God," - is beyond me.

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if by definition....God would be the Almighty.....
questioning God to His Face could be risky.

and if He be the Almighty .....He is the One to follow....

as for the list of attributes you posted....
I suspect that was nothing but chest thumping of those seeking justification for what they desired and then did.
(My god told me to do it!)

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
We are told this God is Jealous, angry, murders children, etc. In multiple stories women and children are murdered or raped for the crimes of men, - again obviously patriarchy, - not God.

Why anyone would follow this idea of a "God," - is beyond me.

You speak as if 'this God' is another person .. He is not .. He is not a physical being.
He is the giver of life and the taker of life. EVERY one of us has to die at some point .. does that make Him a mass murderer? I think not..

 

[Ingledsva]

You speak as if 'this God' is another person .. He is not .. He is not a physical being.
He is the giver of life and the taker of life. EVERY one of us has to die at some point .. does that make Him a mass murderer? I think not..

I'm talking about verses that specifically say he is a murderer of the innocent, for the crimes of OTHERS.

The flood, Egyptian Firstborn, David's baby, etc.

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