God's Preoccupation With Fornication

[stvdv]

I disagree

I taught my children to wait until they were married. They had GREAT teenage years, according to them. They waited for the right person and now they are happily married.

I think it's wise to teach to your children to wait until they are married.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think Skwim can defend himself. And no one has proven my information incorrect.

Skwim's post did. By your standards he refuted your claim. If you own up to your previous errors then perhaps we can move forward. But since your problem with fornication can only be dealt with by not approaching the topic honestly I doubt if we will be able to.

 

[stvdv]

and that so called explanation was refuted by the same means you made that claim. Have you forgotten your hypocritical attack of @Skwim 's refutation already?

I think the common sense part "no STD, no babies before marriage" is not even the issue here.
I think it is only about fornication that is been seen as bad by Christians reading these verses
Ask 1 question: 2 people live 60 years monogamous together unmarried having sex; Good or Bad?

Then you have the right answer straight away. STD's takes the focus away from the real issue here

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think it's wise to teach to your children to wait until they are married.

Fine, that is your personal opinion. Not backed up by much in the matter of evidence. If you want to argue against premarital sex you should try to use valid arguments. Not emotional diatribes.

 

[Kenny]

I understand that your according to your religious values, one should wait until marriage for sex, and I have no problem if that's what you teach your children. You certainly have the right to do that. But I think being honest with kids is important.

Thank you and your last sentence here is spot on!

Certainly our values is rooted in our faith and establishes what sex is all about. But it makes me wonder... if the explanation made the difference, maybe what society has presented about sex is causing the problem? (My personal musings)

Like... if we explain "why" we don't get married at 14 but wait until we have graduated from high school (or some other determined time), wouldn't the understanding help "some" people to wait?

I think it's a mistake to make it sound as if there are no ways to prevent STDs/unwanted pregnancies other than abstinence. So, I don't have a problem with Christians teaching their personal values to their children, but what I see as a problem is not teaching them that ther

Agreed, there are other ways to minimize (not prevent) STD and unwanted pregnancies. Yes, abstinence is the best way but people don't always follow that rule so "minimization" becomes important.

But could we also say that people are trying to teach the children of Christians their personal values to our children? I think it cuts both ways.

Sexual compatibility is more of an issue than you think. What if one partner has a much higher sex drive than the other? This can be a problem, and should be an issue that is sorted out BEFORE signing a legally binding contract.

I find that is more the norm if not 80% of all marriages. One almost always has more of a sex drive than the other. But I don't see it as an unsolvable problem. I see it more as an understanding problem that can be "discussed" before you get married. It isn't a sexual "compatibility" problem but an understanding problem. So two people can talk about sex before you are married and then present your body as a gift to the one that you are committed to.

Isn't commitment the issue in a marriage?

I think more than a body to body issue that brings marriages down it is a soul to soul issue that is the downfall and when you are spending all your time in a sexual relationship, communication goes by the wayside. When 24/7 life comes to play and "sex" isn't the bulk of the communication but rather living together soul to soul, they usually find out their priorities of life and living were different and a divorce ensues.

 

[stvdv]

Fine, that is your personal opinion. Not backed up by much in the matter of evidence. If you want to argue against premarital sex you should try to use valid arguments. Not emotional diatribes.

You read too much into it. I only say it is wise to teach your children "wait until you marry". If they don't "no biggie either". I don't argue against premarital sex.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Agreed, there are other ways to minimize (not prevent) STD and unwanted pregnancies. Yes, abstinence is the best way but people don't always follow that rule so "minimization" becomes important.

Sorry, but abstinence is not the best way. It is an unrealistic approach to the problem and in fact is counterproductive. Teaching kids abstinence only both raises teen pregnancy rates and STD rates:
Abstinence-Only Education and Teen Pregnancy Rates: Why We Need Comprehensive Sex Education in the U.S

 

[Subduction Zone]

You misunderstood. I don't argue against premarital sex. I only say it is wise to teach your children "wait until you marry". If they don't "no biggie either".

Sorry, I don't know what happened. I was in bed using a tablet and may have quoted the wrong person. I thought that I was quoting KenS.

 

[stvdv]

Sorry, I don't know what happened. I was in bed using a tablet and may have quoted the wrong person. I thought that I was quoting KenS.

I could not even teach my children "no sex before marriage", because I had sex before marriage (I even never married). So I would be a hypocrite if I told my kids.
I could tell my kids "I fornicated, and you can decide yourself what you want `to fornicate or not to fornicate`; totally up to you. I won't judge whatever you decide".

 

[Skwim]

Well, if you go by the experts*, women's most important property, is to be walking baby-incubators. This is, naturally, above their second-most: to be property of men.

And, according to the bible? Since all women are owned/property of a man, if she engages in fornication, she isn't worth as much moolah/money/valuita/trade-goods.

Or worse: she might become an incubator for a baby of a man who did not properly pay her owner, first.

This "damages" the man. We can't have that. Or so the bible states.

And there you have it. The bible explained by someone who's not invested in it as a Magic Book.

_____

* self-professed bible apologizers and explainers of what it is supposed to say, instead of what is actually printed in the book.

I think you may have a point. God is playing to the cultural values of his people. Hardly a god-like position, but often times god isn't god-like any way.

.

 

[Skwim]

Can I help it if I taught them to be honest and our communication lines were open?

Boy, talk about being snowed

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[stvdv]

Can I help it if I taught them to be honest and our communication lines were open?

That is very nice, if you have such an honest connection with your children. Well done.

 

[stvdv]

Boy, talk about being snowed

My daughters never snowed me !!!

I do like the drawing, very well done.
So fathers are that good; trusting their daughters
So daughters are that bad; misusing fathers trust
Good to know. Genesis snake was accurate then

I hope your daughters did not snow you

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Isn't commitment the issue in a marriage?

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I don't have time to address your post in its entirety right now, so I only quoted one sentence (not ignoring the rest, just too busy to respond). In any case, the one thing that I have to say is that I could not commit to signing a legally binding contract to spend the rest of my life with one person without knowing everything (well, nearly everything) about her, including sexuality. I find it highly irrational and frankly irresponsible to make a promise to monogamously commit to someone for the rest of your life without having any idea what they are like in bed.

 

[Kenny]

Sorry, but abstinence is not the best way. It is an unrealistic approach to the problem and in fact is counterproductive. Teaching kids abstinence only both raises teen pregnancy rates and STD rates:
Abstinence-Only Education and Teen Pregnancy Rates: Why We Need Comprehensive Sex Education in the U.S

Disagree:

19. Michael Resnick, M.D., et al., "Protecting Adolescents from Harm: Findings from the National Longitudinal Study on Adolescent Health," Journal of the American Medical Association, Vol. 278 (September 10, 1997). The effects of a virginity pledge in reducing sexual activity were statistically significant at the 99.9 percent confidence level.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ional_Longitudinal_Study_on_Adolescent_Health

1. 
   Virginity Pledge Programs. An article in the Journal of the American Medical Association by Dr. Michael Resnick and others entitled "Protecting Adolescents From Harm: Findings from the National Longitudinal Study on Adolescent Health" shows that "abstinence pledge" programs are dramatically effective in reducing sexual activity among teenagers in grades 7 through 12. Based on a large national sample of adolescents, the study concludes that "Adolescents who reported having taken a pledge to remain a virgin were at significantly lower risk of early age of sexual debut."[20]In fact, the study found that participating in an abstinence program and taking a formal pledge of virginity were by far the most significant factors in a youth's delaying early sexual activity. The study compared students who had taken a formal pledge of virginity with students who had not taken a pledge but were otherwise identical in terms of race, income, school performance, degree of religiousness, and other social and demographic factors. Based on this analysis, the authors discovered that the level of sexual activity among students who had taken a formal pledge of virginity was one-fourth the level of that of their counterparts who had not taken a pledge. Overall, nearly 16 percent of girls and 10 percent of boys were found to have taken a virginity pledge.
2. 
   

 

[Kenny]

Boy, talk about being snowed

View attachment 24285

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LOL - nice cartoon -- but since I know my children and you don't... it remains just a cartoon.

 

[Skwim]

LOL - nice cartoon -- but since I know my children and you don't... it remains just a cartoon.

You're a good sport.

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[Subduction Zone]

Disagree:

19. Michael Resnick, M.D., et al., "Protecting Adolescents from Harm: Findings from the National Longitudinal Study on Adolescent Health," Journal of the American Medical Association, Vol. 278 (September 10, 1997). The effects of a virginity pledge in reducing sexual activity were statistically significant at the 99.9 percent confidence level.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ional_Longitudinal_Study_on_Adolescent_Health

1. 
   Virginity Pledge Programs. An article in the Journal of the American Medical Association by Dr. Michael Resnick and others entitled "Protecting Adolescents From Harm: Findings from the National Longitudinal Study on Adolescent Health" shows that "abstinence pledge" programs are dramatically effective in reducing sexual activity among teenagers in grades 7 through 12. Based on a large national sample of adolescents, the study concludes that "Adolescents who reported having taken a pledge to remain a virgin were at significantly lower risk of early age of sexual debut."[20]In fact, the study found that participating in an abstinence program and taking a formal pledge of virginity were by far the most significant factors in a youth's delaying early sexual activity. The study compared students who had taken a formal pledge of virginity with students who had not taken a pledge but were otherwise identical in terms of race, income, school performance, degree of religiousness, and other social and demographic factors. Based on this analysis, the authors discovered that the level of sexual activity among students who had taken a formal pledge of virginity was one-fourth the level of that of their counterparts who had not taken a pledge. Overall, nearly 16 percent of girls and 10 percent of boys were found to have taken a virginity pledge.

That is one study. Reality refutes it. There is a tie between abstinence only teaching and increased teen pregnancy and increased spread of STD's. Yes, it is nice in a fairy tale world but the real world does not support it. Your article seems to be more about the positive aspects of proper parenting rather than what you claim. I can't even see anything about the virginity pledge. Where is that in the article? Or did you read a Christian based article that made that claim and assume it was in the report?

 

[Kenny]

That is very nice, if you have such an honest connection with your children. Well done.

It took work for sure.

I remember for our youngest entering into Jr High. We saw a great change of attitude (not for the better) and realized that she still didn't know who she was. My wife home-schooled her for that year and built a strong relationship and in 8th grade, back to public school with no issues for the rest of her schooling.

Wayne, our first born, (actually, we had two miscarriages first), took extra time too. Instead of busing him to school we took him to school and from school and just communicated--something that wasn't natural for him. He learned how to communicate so well that when he went to college (Florida Tech) and took a night course, we would hear a knock on the bedroom door when we were sleeping when he got home. He would just sit on the bed and share the events of the day.

The second, Lisa, she knew who she was and the word was out in high-school from the boys, "you can't get anything from her". Yet, one day she came home somewhat teary eyed and said "Everyone has a boyfriend and I don't have any".

I simply asked her some questions, "Honey, are the boyfriends they have today the same ones they had last year?"
"no" was her reply.

"When they broke up, were they heart broken?"

"Yes"

"Do you think they will have the same boyfriend next year"?

Understanding started setting in and she replied "probably not".

"So, why do you want your heart broken now? Are you ready to marry?"

Scrunched face, "NO WAY".

"Then why don't you hold off on personal dating until you are ready to consider marriage and just have a great time with your friends. After all, we don't want to practice how ruin relationship and get heartbroken , we want to minimize failures and wait until we are ready to consider life-time commitment".

With a smile on her face, heart reassured that the right one would come it was the last time she looked for a boy-friend until she was in college. First one was a "no" -- but no intimacy. Second was a yes with the exchange of the gift of her body on her wedding night.

We would talk about sex, whom they liked, why they liked them and the whole gamete of life. It really was a great time. Push come to shove, they preferred spending time with the family than going out all the time.

Today, Wayne is married, with four wonderful children.
Lisa, married with four wonderful children
Naomi, happily married and just had her second.

What is beautiful is to watch the two 14 year olds play around with their siblings as innocent as one can be. Our children have reproduced what they had very effectively.

Of course we understand that there are families that have real issues. No condemnation, no pointing of fingers, just helping hands to get them back on a track of success.

 

[Kenny]

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I don't have time to address your post in its entirety right now, so I only quoted one sentence (not ignoring the rest, just too busy to respond). In any case, the one thing that I have to say is that I could not commit to signing a legally binding contract to spend the rest of my life with one person without knowing everything (well, nearly everything) about her, including sexuality. I find it highly irrational and frankly irresponsible to make a promise to monogamously commit to someone for the rest of your life without having any idea what they are like in bed.

OK... no judgment on this side. Just a different viewpoint.