God's opposition to homosexual behavior. Why?

[Jason.D.King]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You have none, thus you are expressing an opinion, opinions aren´t facts, opinions prove nothing.

Are you being serious? You honestly think that the Bible was written in Old English as it happened? Ok... Not going to try to prove my point if that is what you believe. It isn't an extraordinary claim though - the Bible in fact was originally written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. The history of the written text is quite well documented and accepted in the historical community.

 

[Jason.D.King]

Oh I quite agree with you Jason. You may call me Gary if you wish.

I've looked into this subject as it happens, just while investigating other religions besides my own.

There is no easy answer to this concerning the 1 Corinthians clobber passage, because Arsenokoitai is a word Paul seems to have coined himself.

This makes it almost impossible to put the word into any kind of surrounding context, and for Koine Greek that is extremely important to understanding what's being conveyed. Koine Greek is not extremely subject specific.

The word Arsenokoitai literally means 'male beds'. That's all...

In the Sibylline Oracles 2.70-77, Acts of John, and Theophilus of Antioch's Ad Autolycum the word is used after Paul's writings, and seems to infer some male person using their bed for profit through exploiting sexual acts - or what we would consider in today's society as a male prostitute; or possibly a pimp of male prostitutes.

Looking back at the time frame of the book of Corinthians, there were in fact young girly looking males that were forced into prostitution - they were known as temple prostitutes. However, Paul seemed to be talking about the problem of profiting off of said behavior, and temple prostitutes were not made a profit off of. I think what we have is an example of Paul talking about the immorality of male pimps profiting off of sold sexual acts from male prostitutes. Paul wasn't even talking about gay males in committed relationships.

I postulate further that a more accurate translation from Greek to English is "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: those who fornicate, those who are idolaters (Paul is probably referring to the temple prostitutes here, as this passage is mostly about people who are sexually corrupt), adulterers, those who are easily convinced to accept this behavior and are otherwise morally bankrupt, and those who would profit from this sexual deviance”

 

[pearl]

But I don't believe "the word" to be from god.

But they did. There is no reason for that belief now, except that it provides the excuse for a personally held opposition to homosexuality.

 

[pearl]

There is not a single verse in the bible that condemns homosexuality.

In Paul's epistle to the Romans, it is clear that what he opposes first of all is perversion in the celebration of pagan gods. It is the idolatry that is the 'abomination'.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What motivates you to poll the entirety of the gay community? Or abused children?
May I have some legitimate statistics on that, please?
Because I can just as easily point out the 1 in 6 statistic (for boys being sexually abused, the ones reported anyway) and again point out that many turn out straight. Strange how that's never addressed by people pushing such a narrative. Hmm.

Also it is the height of dispicable condescension to pretty much claim all or most gay people are gay because of abuse. Which is demonstratively false, just saying. And then to have the sheer audacity to feign concern as if you are trying to help the situation. But in the same breath push a pretty destructive myth about not just gay people but abused children in general. Like they're some sort of shield or pawn you can trot out to justify homophobic behaviours.
That's well into the "how do you sleep at night" territory right there.
Like wow.

My "polls" come from witnessing to thousands of people. Gays and I talk frankly on the issues. Also, you can search online and in papers to find non-Christian psychologists who concur--most homosexuals were either abused as children or have a broken relationship with a same sex parent.

I'm not "trotting out" homophobic behaviors when I have frank, intimate talks with gays. I'm rather insisting the scriptures are correct and homosexuals are hurting people. Let's help hurting people instead of attacking the people trying to help them!

 

[pearl]

So, what is sexual perversion?

For Paul it was the 'fertility festivals,' because of the idolatry of worshiping pagan gods.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I think someone is being dishonest, which is considered a sin, correct?

1. I've honestly witnessed to thousands of folks.
2. I've honestly reported what gays have told me.
3. There are papers and sites online, including secular psychologists, who affirm what I'm saying.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Apparently you have been selective in who you talk to, and missed all those homosexuals born to and raised in good Christian homes and traditional marriages.

I'm tired of these comments. Are you a gay exception to my rule or are you guessing?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Provide the evidence. I have some sympathy with your view, even if it is entirely wrong, since I was sexually abused by an older boy as a child - something which he apparently doesn't regard as abuse - and suffered because of this for a number of years afterwards. I was not in the least sexually attracted to other boys before the abuse - just developing a sexuality then - and haven't since, so it was more an interjection into my normal development. It did affect my confidence and trust in others, and also made me question my sexuality, along with harming any natural tendency to get closer to others. But I survived intact - sexually that is.

However, I would hardly see my situation as being that common, and I did overcome it, even if it left lasting damage.

The same argument you have made is often used with regards paedophilia, that sexual abuse in childhood could be responsible for paedophilia later. Unfortunately, the evidence doesn't stack up, since it is quite variable, and it cannot be concluded that such abuse necessarily leads to paedophilia. But, the likelihood of developing paedophilia in females is apparently more related to such abuse than in males.

I'm sorry you suffered and I'm glad you're strong!

I NEVER said "all persons abused by same sex persons are destined for homosexuality."

I said most gays I know--and we can add most homosexuals who've gone to secular counselors to talk through their pain--were abused as children and/or had broken relationships with same sex parents.

Notice!

1. I never said "abused by the same sex" but everyone is RIGHTLY assuming what I meant, because it's obvious.
2. NO ONE is responding on the entire thread to "or had a broken relationship with a same sex parent".

A lot of homosexuality is trying to find identity, compromised by a distant parent...

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh okay. So am I heterosexual because I was abused by a member of the opposite sex when I was younger? Is that how this works?

There's no need to be flippant about people who have been hurt and are now in pain.

I NEVER said ALL people abused as children become X. You AGAIN and AGAIN refuse to read my posts while applying comprehension. What I said was "most gays were abused as children and/or had a broken relationship with a same sex parent".

YOU implied and added "same sex" to "abused" because it was natural and logical to do so. Your tirade underscores the truth of what I wrote, thanks!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Exactly! Being gay, and having lived within the gay community in Canada's largest city for 53 years, I have known thousands of gay people, personally and often very well. Almost all were the offspring of loving parents in good homes. I am, in fact, one of the very few exceptions, growing up in the Children's Aid (who never abused me).

For whatever reason, I think @BilliardsBall is being a tad inventive with facts and figures.

Everyone is so obsessed with sex they ignored what I wrote regarding a broken relationship with a same sex parent . . . growing in Children's Aid you had a superb paternal relationship with your father?

And you asked thousands of gays in Canada about their growing up process and inquired as to the abuse they experienced?

I've witnessed to thousands of people, when homosexuality comes up, I can close my eyes and say, "Behold! You were abused or had a bad relationship with your same sex parent."

I'm asking you to be honest with me, if you want to go there and have an honest discourse, and learn.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yeah, sure, everyone else is broken, I've seen with absolutely no cognitive bias and could, in no way, support this supposition with anything like fact.
<insert very large eyeroll icon>

And I think fundamentalists turn their fear (of mortality, of not being cosmically significant, of not having moral superiority) and anger (based around the cultural prejudices of ancient people they haven't moved beyond) into being ****ty to others. And that as fundamentalist Christian they are, they are fundamentally broken people.

There, now we're even.

Huh? You want to talk about fundie insecurities while I continue to help broken people, broken souls?

1. I've witnessed to thousands.
2. When homosexuality comes up, each time, people talk to me when asked about abuse as a child and/or a broken relationship with a same sex parent.

I'm searching online this week for the comments from a secular psychologist who counseled 300 gay men and recorded that 298 of them had either/or.

 

[Muffled]

I believe He calls it an abomination which means it is disgusting as in throwing up in the sink.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I'm sorry you suffered and I'm glad you're strong!

I NEVER said "all persons abused by same sex persons are destined for homosexuality."

I said most gays I know--and we can add most homosexuals who've gone to secular counselors to talk through their pain--were abused as children and/or had broken relationships with same sex parents.

Notice!

1. I never said "abused by the same sex" but everyone is RIGHTLY assuming what I meant, because it's obvious.
2. NO ONE is responding on the entire thread to "or had a broken relationship with a same sex parent".

A lot of homosexuality is trying to find identity, compromised by a distant parent...

I don't think there is any evidence that child abuse of any sort has been linked directly with homosexuality, and especially sexual abuse. From what I have seen, not recent I will admit, there are more indications that it is something that one tends to be born with - for whatever reasons. But I wouldn't discount early experiences, like mine, having an effect - for some. The fact that it might have a genetic basis might be strengthened by the fact that homosexual behaviour is rather common in many animal species.

List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia

 

[Muffled]

Too many IF's in that sentence. You are using your point of view to construct a so-called question. And you pulled out one passage rather than looking at the whole (see the quote below)

I'll just note that the conservative Christian understanding is just one way of interpreting those passages and one which in no way binds me.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh5.htm
Translations and interpretations of Leviticus 18:22; all views

Some interpret the passage literally, arguing that it says men must not lie with men, period, end-of-story. There's historical precedent for literal interpretation. But it seems to me that literalism is an all-or-nothing proposition. If one interprets that passage literally, one must also regard as טמא/tamei (ritually unclean) anyone who touches a weasel, a mouse, a gecko or monitor lizard. (Until sundown, anyway.) When a man dies without a son, the literalist must order his brother to marry the newly-widowed woman so she can bear a son in her deceased husband's name. These are, after all, the laws.
(Re)Reading Leviticus 18:22

I believe if one has another way of interpreting it is not from God.

 

[Muffled]

God's scared he won't have enough for himself



Jokes, jokes.

I believe that falls under the heading of blasphemy.

 

[shmogie]

Are you being serious? You honestly think that the Bible was written in Old English as it happened? Ok... Not going to try to prove my point if that is what you believe. It isn't an extraordinary claim though - the Bible in fact was originally written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. The history of the written text

In the Sibylline Oracles 2.70-77, Acts of John, and Theophilus of Antioch's Ad Autolycum the word is used after Paul's writings, and seems to infer some male person using their bed for profit through exploiting sexual acts - or what we would consider in today's society as a male prostitute; or possibly a pimp of male prostitutes.

Looking back at the time frame of the book of Corinthians, there were in fact young girly looking males that were forced into prostitution - they were known as temple prostitutes. However, Paul seemed to be talking about the problem of profiting off of said behavior, and temple prostitutes were not made a profit off of. I think what we have is an example of Paul talking about the immorality of male pimps profiting off of sold sexual acts from male prostitutes. Paul wasn't even talking about gay males in committed relationships.

I postulate further that a more accurate translation from Greek to English is "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: those who fornicate, those who are idolaters (Paul is probably referring to the temple prostitutes here, as this passage is mostly about people who are sexually corrupt), adulterers, those who are easily convinced to accept this behavior and are otherwise morally bankrupt, and those who would profit from this sexual deviance”

I do not read Koine Greek, I use as Greek lexicon to help me understand specific passages in the NT. However I know a number of people who read Koine Greek and can read the original sources in total. Yes, both the history of translations is well known, as well as the original sources, not the original documents. The original sources are known to have been written from the original documents within a very short time of the writing of of the original documents. Both were in koine Greek. The original sources are considered to be accurate copies of the original documents by the overwhelming Majority of Bible scholars.

Ergo, no human manipulation between the two. The original sources are extant today, and can be read today by those who read Koine Greek.

All true translations, are direct translations from the original sources, be they into Latin, English , German etc. by scholars who can read and understand Koine Greek.

On this issue all translations are consistent. People I know who read Koine Greek tell me the translations are accurate on this issue. My Greek lexicon tells me these verses on this issue are accurate.

You may be a Biblical Scholar who reads and understands Koine Greek, your position is contrary to the crushing majority of those like you over the centuries.

You may not be a Biblical scholar who reads and understands Koine Greek. If so, you have no education or preparation to make a credible informed factual statement on the matter.

Consequently you have opinions, opinions are not facts. We all have opinions on virtually any subject. No matter how passionately we believe our opinions, and no matter how many share your opinion, it isn't fact. It is simply an opinion.

 

[shmogie]

Huh? You want to talk about fundie insecurities while I continue to help broken people, broken souls?

1. I've witnessed to thousands.
2. When homosexuality comes up, each time, people talk to me when asked about abuse as a child and/or a broken relationship with a same sex parent.

I'm searching online this week for the comments from a secular psychologist who counseled 300 gay men and recorded that 298 of them had either/or.

All people have broken souls in some form or another, they just may not recognize it. You have a broken soul, you just may refuse to acknowledge it.

Your research results would be of interest to me. Contrary to the popular line, there is no biological/genetic cause for homosexuality known, to this point. I know many cling to the formula that says homosexuality has an inevitable biological cause, it will eventually be found. This is akin to those who believe in abiogenisis ( the self creation of life from a random combination of non living chemicals). It is true, therefore, proof of it will be found. Once again we are dealing with opinion, not fact.

Homosexuality exists, fact. It isn't biologically determined, fact, therefore it is caused.

What causes it ? Not the genes, but apparently the function of the mind. What causes the mind to function this way ?

 

[Prestor John]

You have actually made my decision to not have children all the more appealing.

And I thank God for that.

How can you be in agony over not having kids if you never wanted any?

My remarks were in regards to having offspring in eternity, not in this life.

When we leave this life and come to remember our existence before coming to the Earth, we might come to feel differently.

Myself, I started to help raise them when I was 8, and now I work with them. I'm just fine and dandy and perfectly content without my own.

That’s fine. Do what you want.

I always wanted children and find great joy in having them.

As for not finding a mate lots of people do that, and it torments them in life. I work with a few of them as well. And then again there are those who don't desire such relationships, so how could it cause them agony reflecting upon not having something they didn't want?

Coming to realize that they would need to spend eternity without a spouse might change their minds.

​

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

@BilliardsBall

Except that most LGB people have not been abused as children and most people who have been abused are heterosexual, so your theory doesn't make sense. Every gay person is not in therapy so you can't extropolate what someone says in therapy to a community as a whole.

The problem with the believe that abuse causes homosexuality