God's Involvement in Your World

[CG Didymus]

Not sure why you blame Baha'i for the obvious warnings given in all scriptures, Here is one given 2000 years ago

Matthew 7:15
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

That is just saying that they will take you away from the flock, take you away from the intent of God's Word.

So one has a duty to provide accurate information.

Baha'u'llah offered.

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise."

Mirza Gulam Ahmad declaration was after the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Mirza Gulam Ahmad was taught the faith of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Mirza Gulam Ahmad was challenged on the fact that he was eclipsed by the Bab and Baha'u'llah, he never responded to thay challenge.

Thus we only provide information to enable people to make their own informed decisions.

You and all get to choose.

Regards Tony

Yes, and if we take some of the "obvious" warnings should we accept that Baha'i Faith as true?

But, since you brought up the NT, what are some of the problems with it? One, Jesus didn't write it. All we know is what his followers told us about him. Only two gospel writers mention the virgin birth. One verse in Isaiah is taken to "prove" it was predicted. Baha'is want to believe that? Fine, but I don't know why. Why not give it some "symbolic" and not literal interpretation. Like they do with the resurrection... something that all four gospels say happened. Yet, Baha'i say that it didn't happen... That only the spirit of Jesus rose. Then all that stuff about inheriting sin from Adam. Some one that Baha'is say was a manifestation, don't they? Then all the stuff about Satan, as if he is real. Baha'is say he is not real.

We could pick apart Christianity and find all kinds of reasons why it can't be true. It's so bad that Baha'is have to interpret lots of things symbolically. Why not reject it? What is so true about it? Baha'is have very little in common with the beliefs of Fundamental, evangelical, conservative Christians. Baha'i reject their beliefs and interpretations. Yet, they base their beliefs on the Bible and NT.

You say, "a duty to provide accurate information"? That's the problem. What Baha'is say is "accurate" isn't the same as what some other religions says is "accurate". There's way more followers of Mirza Gulam Ahmad than followers of Baha'u'llah. Are they all stupid? I doubt it. If it's a lie, why are they following it and believing in it? All it shows is that people can believe and do believe all sorts of religious claims and beliefs. So, does accurate information matter when people believe just about anything?

But, since this is about God's involvement in the world, what is your take on how much he is involved? Because, depending on who you talk to, God can be very involved to not involved at all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, and if we take some of the "obvious" warnings should we accept that Baha'i Faith as true?

Up to each person to decide CG.

I am only here to present what I have found in my journey, in case it may help another.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Now that has been offered.

Consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was also born in God's image and has the Capacity of all virtue as does every human.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also studied the Faiths of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, this is reflected in His teachings, as his teachings changed from his early years to his later years.

Thus much light can be found in what was offered in His Writings, yet the source is not that of a Messengers from God, that is MHO.

You an all get to decide that for their own selves.

Regards Tony

So, God's guidance. He sends special people to tell us about him and what he wants. Your prophet, Baha'u'llah, you say was one of those "special" people, a manifestation of God, a perfect reflection of God.

But you say this other man, who I'm sure taught about God, is a false prophet, because he made the same kind of claim that Baha'u'llah made. And God only sends a manifestation once every 500 to a 1000 years. But that's not right, Baha'is believe God sent two manifestations just a few years apart, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. So, God can send a special person anytime he wants then, right?

And people need a lot of guidance. Like the Israelites... how many manifestations did God send them? Then how many "anointed" ones? Then how many judges and prophets? Then Christians believe that God can anoint people with the gift of prophecy. Is that true? Can God give them updates on things and maybe clarify a few things that are being misinterpreted? Then, we should talk about Hinduism. Does God guide and teach people to Gurus and then how to become a Guru to others?

I think that's a much better way to do things... Getting involved with lots of people. Guiding them. Teaching them. Communing with them. Being part of their lives. And I wouldn't doubt that Baha'is do believe that too. That God communicates to individual Baha'is and guides them. Maybe by guiding them to read a certain passage or book, and then giving them the insight needed to understand it. Guiding them to certain people that needed to hear the word. Communing with Baha'is through prayer. And, I've been told by some Baha'is, that God sent them a vision of Abdul Baha to inspire and guide them. I think you had some kind of mystical experience, didn't you? But who in any of the other religions, including the Ahmadiyya, hasn't felt God guiding them and communicating to them.

Whether any of it is true or not, who knows? Because they are all believing in different things about God. But, for lots of believers in every religion, their God is involved.

 

[CG Didymus]

Up to each person to decide CG.

I am only here to present what I have found in my journey, in case it may help another.

Regards Tony

Yeah, that's fine with me. Tell all about your journey and why you believe what you believe. But when you use words like "obvious" and "accurate", then that creates a problem. It's kind of insinuating that your beliefs are "obviously" true and accurate.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And I wouldn't doubt that Baha'is do believe that too. That God communicates to individual Baha'is and guides them.

The guidance of God is only via our connection to the Manifestations of God.

I see that we have no direct communication with God, as that is the Station of the Messenger.

That is why Jesus Christ offers that we must be born again, born from the Human Spirit to a connection with the Holy Spirit, via the Spirit of Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, that's fine with me. Tell all about your journey and why you believe what you believe. But when you use words like "obvious" and "accurate", then that creates a problem. It's kind of insinuating that your beliefs are "obviously" true and accurate.

CG, the word 'obvious' was used in context of the verse, not in the context of our ability to determine the truth or false claim of another prophet.

Is not the warning in the Bible about False Prophets self explanatory? Is it not obvious it is a warning for us, that there will be false prophets?

The quandary for us after heading that 'obvious' warning, then becomes our purity of search. How deep are we willing to look within our own selves and other scriptures to determine what is false and what is true?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The guidance of God is only via our connection to the Manifestations of God.

I see that we have no direct communication with God, as that is the Station of the Messenger.

That is why Jesus Christ offers that we must be born again, born from the Human Spirit to a connection with the Holy Spirit, via the Spirit of Faith.

Regards Tony

So, for Baha'is, God is not directly involved? He sends a manifestation. They tells us what we need to know about God, then die. And then what? Their job is finished? They go to a heavenly retirement home?

Now after God sends a manifestation then what? God sends the Holy Spirit? But, according to Baha'is, what is the Holy Spirit? God is spirit but can't communicate directly with his creation, so he has another spirit, the Holy Spirit, that can?

Anyway, to me, sometimes it seems like religions are making things up as they go. If God is the creator, he should be involved. Why delegate things out to his Holy Spirit, his angels, and his manifestations? Somehow, along the line, his message is getting lost.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, for Baha'is, God is not directly involved? He sends a manifestation. They tells us what we need to know about God, then die. And then what? Their job is finished? They go to a heavenly retirement home?

Now after God sends a manifestation then what? God sends the Holy Spirit? But, according to Baha'is, what is the Holy Spirit? God is spirit but can't communicate directly with his creation, so he has another spirit, the Holy Spirit, that can?

Anyway, to me, sometimes it seems like religions are making things up as they go. If God is the creator, he should be involved. Why delegate things out to his Holy Spirit, his angels, and his manifestations? Somehow, along the line, his message is getting lost.

From what I understand CG, it is the Holy Spirit, that is all the Messengers, that are the Light of God for us. That is the creative force for our reality.

They never die CG, remember that is what the Quran says, you cannot kill Jesus, as Jesus was the Christ, the Spirit that is the source of our Creation.

God the Most Great Spirit is the creator of the Holy Spirit.

One can read what Baha'u'llah offered and determine for their own self what is being offered.

Others may see it differently. It is a great topic for all to discuss. Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
What evidence did Mirza Gulam Ahmad give?

He said he is the Mahdi dispatched by Allah. Did Bahaollah give any more evidence than that? Of course, other than the appearance of the 'heavenly maiden'.
Your link is only for 'knowledgable followers of Bahaollah'. All others are fools.

 

[Trailblazer]

He said he is the Mahdi dispatched by Allah. Did Bahaollah give any more evidence than that? Of course, other than the appearance of the 'heavenly maiden'.

A claim is not evidence. A claim to be the Mahdi is not evidence to be the Mahdi.
Baha'u'llah did not claim to be the Mahdi, the Bab made that claim.

I have told you what the evidence is that supports the claims of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have accepted the knowledge of Baha'u'llah was innate.

He did not study science, for science was viewed with suspicion in nineteenth-century Persia, nor did He study philosophy or religion. Those were left to the mullas and mujtahids -- Muslim scholars who spent long years studying the teachings, laws, and traditions of Islam.

You have, but I find no reason to do that starting with the existence of any God or his sending messengers.
This, IMV, is ancient monotheist (Zoroastrian) / Abrahamic superstition. I wonder how it persists even in 21st Century!
It was unfortunate for Bahaollah and Iranians of that time that they viewed science with suspicion.
All he learnt was teachings, laws and traditions of Islam, that is all that the Mollahs and Mujtahids knew.
And if he learnt that, why do you say that he did not study philosophy and religion?
Actually, he learnt only that and nothing else. Had he studied science, perhaps his views would have been different.

All the rest that you quote is praise by Bahai evangelists and those who believed/believe him to be a God's messenger, ad blurbs. For me, it is complete BS.

 

[Aupmanyav]

A claim is not evidence. A claim to be the Mahdi is not evidence to be the Mahdi.
I have told you what the evidence is that supports the claims of Baha'u'llah.

I say exactly the same for Bahaollah. A claim not evidence. Even the claim that there is a God has no evidence. Therefore, the claim that he sends prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis is untenable. The evidence for Bahaollah that you and other Bahais present is laughable.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And if he learnt that, why do you say that he did not study philosophy and religion?

That requires a understanding of what it is to study philosophy and religion in Islam. It is far beyond what one learns as a child. It is an entire field of study.

Much like learning the anatomy of the body as a child at school, is naught like what you learn as a Dr. Yet Baha'u'llah was a skilled Dr, even as a child.

The ability to know the quran off by heart is a bounty we could all use in our younger schooling.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I say exactly the same for Bahaollah. A claim not evidence.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but since you do not even believe in God, I don't know why you would care who was a Messenger of God.

 

[firedragon]

I've read many times here that God wants, God loves, God hates, etc.

Is your god concerned with worldly affairs? If so, why? To what end?

What is your god's involvement in this world?

I think you will get an answer to this question the day you meet someone who spoke to God yesterday and asked this question.

 

[firedragon]

Not sure why you blame Baha'i for the obvious warnings given in all scriptures, Here is one given 2000 years ago

The Gospel according to Matthew was written by an anonymous author in or around the year 69. Thus, when you claim its "scripture" you have to provide evidence that it is "scripture". What is the Bahai scholarship the provides evidence that this is scripture other than some blind belief statement "because he says so"?

 

[firedragon]

Even the claim that there is a God has no evidence.

But its hypocrisy to believe in Brahman as you do, and declare "no evidence" to other people.

 

[firedragon]

One verse in Isaiah is taken to "prove" it was predicted.

That was based on a deliberate mistranslation and the worship of the septuagint.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That requires a understanding of what it is to study philosophy and religion in Islam.

I have studied Islam and I know the Sunni and the Shia view (and those of other sects as well) inside and out. In a similar way, I understand Bahai view also very well.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but since you do not even believe in God, I don't know why you would care who was a Messenger of God.

I don't. I just want to inform people of the superstitious views of religions (that includes Hinduism too).