God's Distaste For Premarial Sex AND Why Is Song Of Solomon In The Bible?

[Tumah]

Tumah, I don't know much at all about the scriptures, but some years ago I kept by my bedside a copy of Sumerian and Egyptian literature in translation, and the author mentioned somewhere in passing that a very common and tradtional expression in Egyptian love poetry was to call an unrelated woman who was your lover or spouse "my sister". Calling a woman "my sister" was not an indication of one's family relationship to her, but of one's emotional intimacy with her. The author went on to say that the Song of Solomon most likely had adopted the expression from the Egyptian custom. Do you know anything about that? I'd like to hear more about it.

What do I know about Egyptian and Sumerian literature? The answer is nothing. I know nothing.
Although, if it was used that way in Egypt in the west and in Sumer in the east, I don't see why it wouldn't be a good bet to say that all the areas between them used it that way as well.
We find both Abraham and Isaac calling their wives, "sister" in order to deceive the Egyptians and Philistines (Gen. 16, 20, 26). So if "sister" was used to refer to lovers, it could be that the passages are trying to convey that they used a half-truth rather than a lie.

 

[Tumah]

I always interpreted the Song of Solomon as a metaphor of God's love for the Church/Israel.

There was no church when it was written.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There was no church when it was written.

Obviously. "God's people", which, to a Christian, is the Church. Back then it was the nation of Israel.

 

[Segev Moran]

god has to say about premarital sex

God has nothing against premarital sex. it is not the issue. the issue is a selfish act of sex. meaning sex that does not lead to life. on that note, God teaches us that having children outside of marriage is not a good idea. (I think we all have a common agreement that there is a sense to this idea).
The outcome is that having sex outside marriage, is not a good conduct.

 

[Tumah]

Obviously. "God's people", which, to a Christian, is the Church. Back then it was the nation of Israel.

I understand that you aren't Christian today, so I'm not expressing an argument against you. I'm speaking in general about Christianity about which you tend to know a lot.
The idea that the subject of the metaphor should keep changing, sounds a little odd. And perhaps the importance of the expression of love is also diminished when the object of love is subject to change. Also, I assume that this means that Christians don't attach any particular meaning to the metaphors used in the Song, but just see the entire song in general as a metaphor for a relationship?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I understand that you aren't Christian today, so I'm not expressing an argument against you. I'm speaking in general about Christianity about which you tend to know a lot.
The idea that the subject of the metaphor should keep changing, sounds a little odd. And perhaps the importance of the expression of love is also diminished when the object of love is subject to change. Also, I assume that this means that Christians don't attach any particular meaning to the metaphors used in the Song, but just see the entire song in general as a metaphor for a relationship?

Well, that is just what I was taught as a Christian. In traditional Christianity, the nation of Israel was primarily a spiritual nation that was to be obedient to God. In Christianity, the Church was called Spiritual Israel. Under Christ, the Covenant given to the Israelites wasn't done away with but was expanded to cover all those who come to faith in Christ. This would include any Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah. So it's not really viewed as "transferring" from one group to another or the object of love being changed. The object of love remains the same - those who are the people of God. Paul explains most Jews not accepting Christ as Messiah as being due to God putting scales over their eyes, like He did with hardening the Pharaoh's heart. This to be until the time of the Gentiles - enough Gentiles have become Christians. Then the scales will fall from the Jews' eyes and they will recognize Christ as Messiah. That won't be until the end of days, though. Sadly, Paul also admonished Christians from boasting or feeling prideful against the Jews but Christians seemed to have ignored those verses over the centuries.

 

[Tumah]

Well, that is just what I was taught as a Christian. In traditional Christianity, the nation of Israel was primarily a spiritual nation that was to be obedient to God. In Christianity, the Church was called Spiritual Israel. Under Christ, the Covenant given to the Israelites wasn't done away with but was expanded to cover all those who come to faith in Christ. This would include any Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah. So it's not really viewed as "transferring" from one group to another or the object of love being changed. The object of love remains the same - those who are the people of God. Paul explains most Jews not accepting Christ as Messiah as being due to God putting scales over their eyes, like He did with hardening the Pharaoh's heart. This to be until the time of the Gentiles - enough Gentiles have become Christians. Then the scales will fall from the Jews' eyes and they will recognize Christ as Messiah. That won't be until the end of days, though. Sadly, Paul also admonished Christians from boasting or feeling prideful against the Jews but Christians seemed to have ignored those verses over the centuries.

So you're saying it's not like getting married, divorced and married again, but getting married and then taking a bunch of additional wives.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So you're saying it's not like getting married, divorced and married again, but getting married and then taking a bunch of additional wives.

Lol. That's not how it would be viewed, but I can see why you would view it that way.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

So it seems, doesn't it. But both of us know that "dove" probably signifies peacefulness, and that as a metaphor, "sister" wouldn't signify anything a man would feel towards his love. Therefore, "sister" doesn't function as a metaphor at all, but as kin. A very close kin.

Look, I'm all for putting more nails in the coffin of religion, but this equivocation seems baseless even to me - a completely godless atheist without a single shred of belief in any god/gods/the-supernatural/etc.

It seems rather obvious that the word "sister" is being used in that familiar, colloquial context whereby a man might call another man "brother" - though they are not at all blood-related. Clergy do this all the time - and it is not any sort of insistence that the other person is their actual sister or brother, but that you recognize your relation to them as another "one of God's children." Take out the "God" part, and it can still be seen as rather friendly and sentimental - a recognition of the idea that you are the same or equal... but in no way does it mean you believe these people to be part of your immediate family.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I ask because Song of Solomon (Song of Songs) stands in direct contrast to everything else god has to say about premarital sex, which is that it's immoral, impure, lewd, and amounts to debauchery.

One of the most telling pieces of Song of Solomon that extols premarital sex is chapter 7 verses 6-13

6 How beautiful you are and how pleasing, my love, with your delights!
7 Your stature is like that of the palm, and your breasts like clusters of fruit.
8 I said, “I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.” May your breasts be like clusters of grapes on the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples,

She
9 and your mouth like the best wine. May the wine go straight to my beloved, flowing gently over lips and teeth.
10 I belong to my beloved, and his desire is for me.
11 Come, my beloved, let us go to the countryside, let us spend the night in the villages.
12 Let us go early to the vineyards to see if the vines have budded, if their blossoms have opened, and if the pomegranates are in bloom— there I will give you my love.
13 The mandrakes give forth fragrance, and over our doors are all choice fruits, new as well as old, which I have laid up for you, O my beloved.​

Cool!

But then we have all those instances where god shares his revulsion for premarital sex, which I gathered by Googling "sex and the Bible." (The most complete website I came across was "25 Top Bible Verses About Sex - What Does the Bible Say?" put out by 25 Top Bible Verses About Sex - What Does the Bible Say?).

Biblestudytools.com starts out with the following advice.

God gives us very clear guidance in His Word on how we can best experience the gift of intimacy and love that He gave to us through sex. If you are wondering what the Bible says about pre-marital sex or marital sex, use the verses below to study in context what God would have for you to learn. Sex was meant as wonderful experience between husband and wife to provide physical, emotional and spiritual bonding. If you are feeling overwhelmed with a sexual sin remember that God promises to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). God wants to pour grace on you so you can move forward in healing from hurtful sexual choices and into a place of fulfillment! ​

Among the 25, it lists these 9 (not all of the 25 verses pertain to premarital sex)

Galatians 5:19
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

Hebrews 13:4
4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Ephesians 5:3
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.

1 Corinthians 6:9
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

1 Corinthians 6:13-20
13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!
16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”
17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.
19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

2 Corinthians 12:21
21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5
3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable,
5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God;

Mark 7:22-23
22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”

Matthew 5:28
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

​

Curiously, or maybe not, none of these say why premarital sex is immoral, impure, lewd, and debauchery. They simply describe what they amount to. And in light of Song of Solomon, wherein god pretty much glorifies premarital sex, this question becomes all the more salient.

What is it about premarital sexual acts that god doesn't like? What, exactly, makes them immoral, impure, lewd, and acts of debauchery?

.

Yet the Song describes flirtation, oral sex and HOT sex, etc. for a married couple, so why do you feel God is a bigger prude than you (your chief hangup seeming to be a sexual preoccupation with the Holy Bible... um, gross.)?

 

[Jumi]

I ask because Song of Solomon (Song of Songs) stands in direct contrast to everything else god has to say about premarital sex, which is that it's immoral, impure, lewd, and amounts to debauchery..

Well that's the kind of understanding people arrive at who take holy books literally and read them like fundamentalists.

 

[Prestor John]

I ask because Song of Solomon (Song of Songs) stands in direct contrast to everything else god has to say about premarital sex, which is that it's immoral, impure, lewd, and amounts to debauchery.

One of the most telling pieces of Song of Solomon that extols premarital sex is chapter 7 verses 6-13

6 How beautiful you are and how pleasing, my love, with your delights!
7 Your stature is like that of the palm, and your breasts like clusters of fruit.
8 I said, “I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.” May your breasts be like clusters of grapes on the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples,

She
9 and your mouth like the best wine. May the wine go straight to my beloved, flowing gently over lips and teeth.
10 I belong to my beloved, and his desire is for me.
11 Come, my beloved, let us go to the countryside, let us spend the night in the villages.
12 Let us go early to the vineyards to see if the vines have budded, if their blossoms have opened, and if the pomegranates are in bloom— there I will give you my love.
13 The mandrakes give forth fragrance, and over our doors are all choice fruits, new as well as old, which I have laid up for you, O my beloved.​

Cool!

But then we have all those instances where god shares his revulsion for premarital sex, which I gathered by Googling "sex and the Bible." (The most complete website I came across was "25 Top Bible Verses About Sex - What Does the Bible Say?" put out by 25 Top Bible Verses About Sex - What Does the Bible Say?).

Biblestudytools.com starts out with the following advice.

God gives us very clear guidance in His Word on how we can best experience the gift of intimacy and love that He gave to us through sex. If you are wondering what the Bible says about pre-marital sex or marital sex, use the verses below to study in context what God would have for you to learn. Sex was meant as wonderful experience between husband and wife to provide physical, emotional and spiritual bonding. If you are feeling overwhelmed with a sexual sin remember that God promises to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). God wants to pour grace on you so you can move forward in healing from hurtful sexual choices and into a place of fulfillment! ​

Among the 25, it lists these 9 (not all of the 25 verses pertain to premarital sex)

Galatians 5:19
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

Hebrews 13:4
4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Ephesians 5:3
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.

1 Corinthians 6:9
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

1 Corinthians 6:13-20
13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!
16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”
17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.
19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

2 Corinthians 12:21
21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5
3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable,
5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God;

Mark 7:22-23
22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”

Matthew 5:28
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

​

Curiously, or maybe not, none of these say why premarital sex is immoral, impure, lewd, and debauchery. They simply describe what they amount to. And in light of Song of Solomon, wherein god pretty much glorifies premarital sex, this question becomes all the more salient.

What is it about premarital sexual acts that god doesn't like? What, exactly, makes them immoral, impure, lewd, and acts of debauchery?

.

I do not consider the Song of Solomon to be scripture.

 

[Skwim]

So you're saying, you're actually not convinced that the two are married, despite what I brought as evidence?

So, you're saying you're actually not convinced that his spouse is his sister despite what I brought as evidence?

Coming from a society that uses phrases like, "my brother, bro, brotha, brothers in arms" all of which can refer to people one is not related to whatsoever, I honestly can't understand how you've come to the conclusion that "my sister" can only mean a literal sister. Maybe you think it's something unique to English culture? They do it in Israel to although being as Modern Hebrew is a new language, it could have been taken from other cultures. So how about this one:

Well the reference to his sister appears in the KJV written in 1611, which we know pretty darn well was nothing like today's society that uses phrases like, "bro, brotha, brothers in arms.

God has nothing against premarital sex. it is not the issue. the issue is a selfish act of sex. meaning sex that does not lead to life. on that note,
The outcome is that having sex outside marriage, is not a good conduct.

I fail to see why every act of sexual intercourse must have procreation as its goal. Why must this be when god sees fit to end so many conceptions in miscarriages? 75% of all fertilized eggs fail to implant, and of those that do, 31% end in spontaneous abortions. That means 86% of all cases wherein a sperm fertilizes an egg god sees fit to kill. Seems to me that god could be all more cooperative in our endeavors to have unselfish sex.

.

 

[Skwim]

Look, I'm all for putting more nails in the coffin of religion, but this equivocation seems baseless even to me - a completely godless atheist without a single shred of belief in any god/gods/the-supernatural/etc.

It seems rather obvious that the word "sister" is being used in that familiar, colloquial context whereby a man might call another man "brother" - though they are not at all blood-related.

A reasonable thought IF men looked upon their chosen bed partner as someone who embodied the qualities of a sister. But to be truthful, I've never known, or heard of, any guy who looked upon their girlfriend as a sister. "Oh, you're just like a sister to me. Let's make out" If I was a girl and my boyfriend said that to me I'd really question his interest in me and my appeal to him. So, nope, in the verses in question "sister" means just that: one's sibling. Any attempt to read it any differently is exculpatory apologetics.

Moreover, what I find interesting is that in the Wikipedia article on Song of Solomon, not once is it indicated the two are married. In fact, it repeatedly refers to them as simply lovers:

"The Song of Songs is unique within the Hebrew Bible: it shows no interest in Law or Covenant or Yahweh the God of Israel, nor does it teach or explore wisdom like Proverbs or Ecclesiastes (although it does have some affinities to wisdom literature, as the ascription to Solomon indicates); instead, it celebrates sexual love, giving "the voices of two lovers, praising each other, yearning for each other, proffering invitations to enjoy".[2][3] The two are in harmony, each desiring the other and rejoicing in sexual intimacy; the women of Jerusalem form a chorus to the lovers, functioning as an audience whose participation in the lovers' erotic encounters facilitates the participation of the reader.[4]"

There is widespread consensus that, although the book has no plot, it does have what can be called a framework, as indicated by the links between its beginning and end.[7] Beyond this, however, there appears to be little agreement: attempts to find a chiastic structure have not been compelling, and attempts to analyse it into units have used differing methods and arrived at differing results.[8] The following schema, from Kugler & al.[9] must therefore be taken as indicative, rather than determinative:

• Introduction (1:1–6)
• Dialogue between the lovers (1:7–2:7)
• The woman recalls a visit from her lover (2:8–17)
• The woman addresses the daughters of Zion (3:1–5)
• Sighting a royal wedding procession (3:6–11)
• The man describes his lover's beauty (4:1–5:1)
• The woman addresses the daughters of Jerusalem (5:2–6:4)
• The man describes his lover, who visits him (6:5–12)
• Observers describe the woman's beauty (6:13–8:4)
• Appendix (8:5–14)

No reference to "husband" or "wife" at all. So, despite the use of "spouse" in a few versions of the Bible (only 8% of the 51 I checked) I think it's quite reasonable to conclude the two were unmarried.

.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

A reasonable thought IF men looked upon their chosen bed partner as someone who embodied the qualities of a sister. But to be truthful, I've never known, or heard of, any guy who looked upon their girlfriend as a sister. "Oh, you're just like a sister to me. Let's make out" If I was a girl and my boyfriend said that to me I'd really question his interest in me and my appeal to him. So, nope, in the verses in question "sister" means just that: one's sibling. Any attempt to read it any differently is simply exculpatory apologetics.

.

How about this? The song in which the lyric goes "Hey soul sister, ain't that Mr. Mister..." - you think the singer had to have been talking about an actual sister in that song, do you? Let's take a look at a few other lines:

• The way you move ain't fair, you know
• Hey soul sister, I don't want to miss a single thing you do, tonight
• You gave my life direction, a game show love connection we can't deny
• I'm so obsessed, my heart is bound to beat right out of my untrimmed chest

In your view, this song is about incest, correct?

 

[Skwim]

How about this? The song in which the lyric goes "Hey soul sister, ain't that Mr. Mister..." - you think the singer had to have been talking about an actual sister in that song, do you? Let's take a look at a few other lines:

• The way you move ain't fair, you know
• Hey soul sister, I don't want to miss a single thing you do, tonight
• You gave my life direction, a game show love connection we can't deny
• I'm so obsessed, my heart is bound to beat right out of my untrimmed chest

In your view, this song is about incest, correct?

You're talking about two very different cultures. And to assume the word "sister" carried the same nuanced connotations as it does today is ludicrous.

.

 

[Tumah]

So, you're saying you're actually not convinced that his spouse is his sister despite what I brought as evidence?


Well the reference to his sister appears in the KJV written in 1611, which we know pretty darn well was nothing like today's society that uses phrases like, "bro, brotha, brothers in arms.

The only evidence you brought is that the male calls the female sister. You didn't bring any evidence that when he calls her that, he meant his literal sister, despite the evidence I brought that familiar terminology is not always used literally in the Tanach. On the other hand, you did recognize that dove wasn't meant to be taken literally, even though you brought no evidence that the word "dove" is ever used metaphorically. You'll have to understand if I feel like you're not making a sound argument here.

 

[Jumi]

Is the KJV even supposed to be authoritative on the original or intended meanings? Sure, they tried their best for the time but is it enough?

 

[Skwim]

Is the KJV even supposed to be authoritative on the original or intended meanings? Sure, they tried their best for the time but is it enough?

No bible is "authoritative on the original or intended meanings." They were all put together with one bias or the other, and maybe even with several biases.

.

.

 

[Segev Moran]

I fail to see why every act of sexual intercourse must have procreation as its goal.

It doesn't.
Its not a question of Must have, rather should have.
You can do as you please. God never forces you to anything. you have the free will to do as you see fit.
What God teaches you is that there is a good way and a wrong way of doing things.
As for sex, the better way is not to treat sex as a selfish act rather an act of giving the greatest thing we can give. life.
There are many levels to this issue.
A rapist for example, have nothing but the selfish act of satisfying his own needs.
A sex without emotions is not as bad as rape obviously but it is also something that is based on selfish wishes.
Sex based on love is better, sex based on love that leads to children is better and so on.
[/QUOTE]
Why must this be when god sees fit to end so many conceptions in miscarriages?
[/QUOTE]
Miscarriages are part of our life. it is a natural process that will usually happen when your body is not ready to deal with a baby. of course there are also external causes or genetics, eases and many other factors that affect fertility.

75% of all fertilized eggs fail to implant, and of those that do, 31% end in spontaneous abortions.
That means 86% of all cases wherein a sperm fertilizes an egg god sees fit to kill.

Try looking at it from the other side, not God kills, rather God fertilizes.

Seems to me that god could be all more cooperative in our endeavors to have unselfish sex.
.

How so?

Its an issue of self satisfactory.

Everything in life that is acted due to self satisfactory is not the right way to act.
Most of what we do (if not all) is selfish. the less selfish you will act, the better the world will become. this is the most basic rule of God.
Many in the past present this idea in many ways, call it Ego, Selfishness, Greed or whatever.