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God's Distaste For Premarial Sex AND Why Is Song Of Solomon In The Bible?

Skwim

Veteran Member
It doesn't.
Its not a question of Must have, rather should have.
Well, according to you, in order for sexual intercourse not to be a selfish act it does.

"God has nothing against premarital sex. it is not the issue. the issue is a selfish act of sex. meaning sex that does not lead to life."​

In other words, in order for sexual intercourse not to be a selfish act it must be done with the intent of procreating. Ergo, " every act of sexual intercourse must have procreation as its goal.''

You can do as you please. God never forces you to anything. you have the free will to do as you see fit.
What God teaches you is that there is a good way and a wrong way of doing things.
*sigh* Not the issue at all.

Try looking at it from the other side, not God kills, rather God fertilizes.
So what? Being omniscient god knows when the life of a fetus will end in miscarriage, and in as much as he is omnipotent and has the ability to stop it, but chooses not to, he therefore elects to kill it.

Well, he could remove the onus selfishness from sex for pure pleasure, which would give people permission to use contraceptives and have guiltless sex for a change.

Most of what we do (if not all) is selfish. the less selfish you will act, the better the world will become. this is the most basic rule of God.Many in the past present this idea in many ways, call it Ego, Selfishness, Greed or whatever.
Most of what we do is try to get through life as happily as possible.
So just where do you draw this selfishness line? Is there anything you won't give up in order to derive personal satisfaction? I bet there is. I bet you won't give up your car, home, and good food just so those less fortunate than yourself may have it a little better. I'll bet good money your not some ascetic who uses a library computer and begs for food on the corner. Nope, I bet there a lot of "selfish" things you do.

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Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Well, according to you, in order for sexual intercourse not to be a selfish act it does.
Indeed.
How is it not?
The sexual act is pleasure.
(A pleasure I like very much, btw ;))
Pleasure is selfish. it is true that when you have sex, hopefully, you try causing pleasure to your partner, yet the pleasure is still a selfish act. selfish in the sense that you enjoy sex, meaning you get something for yourself.
Giving life, makes the act non selfish rather an act for giving the most valuable thing we can give.
In other words, in order for sexual intercourse not to be a selfish act it must be done with the intent of procreating.
Yep.
Ergo, " every act of sexual intercourse must have procreation as its goal.''
Nope. fix it to this:

" every act of sexual intercourse must have procreation as its goal in order to not be a thing of selfishness.''
So what? Being omniscient god knows when the life of a fetus will end in miscarriage, and in as much as he is omnipotent and has the ability to stop it, but chooses not to, he therefore elects to kill it.
It seems you think of God is a human :) it is not.
It is not a living breathing creature that waves its hands and "kills" the unborn child.
Everything works in a specific way. we lack the information of why and how it works, yet the fact is it still works that way.
Sometimes people die, sometimes they don't.
Sometimes people should die, and they don't.
Trying to figure out what happened why is not something we can achieve.
Well, he could remove the onus selfishness from sex for pure pleasure, which would give people permission to use contraceptives and have guiltless sex for a change.
What would be the point of that?
It can take the pleasure out of everything that we shouldn't do, yet it will render useless to us to live in this world.
The entire point of our existence to feel pleasure. the trick is to realize what is the right pleasure and what is the wrong one.
There is pleasure that doesn't benefit us, there is pleasure that hurts us and there is a pleasure that brings joy and value to everyone.
Pick what type of pleasure you want to live by... its up to you.
Most of what we do is try to get through life as happily as possible.
Exactly.
So just where do you draw this selfishness line?
Any act that is motivated from selfish reasons, has no benefit, not to yourself and not to others (obviously).
Is there anything you won't give up in order to derive personal satisfaction? I bet there is. I bet you won't give up your car, home, and good food just so those less fortunate than yourself may have it a little better.
You are right, and that's one of humans biggest problem. I as many others, care for my family and self. I am selfish, i won't deny it.
One shouldn't harm himself in order to help others, but if i was a better person, i without a doubt donate more to those in need. I fail to do so and I am in the middle of the learning process of how to become such a person.
I'll bet good money your not some ascetic who uses a library computer and begs for food on the corner.
Nope. you shouldn't bet any money, you can just ask and i'll tell you :)
Nope, I bet there a lot of "selfish" things you do.
.
Most of them, unfortunately.
At times i cover it up with stupid excuses. many times I say to myself, how can i do this, i cant afford it and things like that.
It is a hard fight to fight to become a less selfish person.
I don't think there are many such people in the world.
This, however, doesn't mean it is not wrong.
I do many things very wrong. I've hurt people before (not physically that is), I am sure i will hurt people in the future.
The only thing I can do now, is realize what i do wrong and try my best to become better.
I envy those who dedicate their lives to help others, and I am sure they have a much more satisfying life than mine.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
I ask because Song of Solomon (Song of Songs) stands in direct contrast to everything else god has to say about premarital sex, which is that it's immoral, impure, lewd, and amounts to debauchery.
And yet men have concubines and everyone seems fine with that.

Sex was meant as wonderful experience between husband and wife to provide physical, emotional and spiritual bonding.
And the concubines. Apparently wives, even hundreds of them, just don't get it done for some men.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
I wonder what makes it that, though. Are fetishists hurting anyone?

4 Marriage should be honored by all
Jesus said that heaven doesn't care about marriage.

3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
Maybe rape and adultery and other non-consensual relationships would not be a thing if people could get their jollies safely and without judgement.

Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
Paul: I mean, I helped stone people to death, but I hate the fact I'm not getting laid, so I'll definitely go to heaven.

Jesus: *facepalms* THE ... ONLY ... UNFORGIVABLE ... SIN ... IS ... BLASPHEMY ... AGAINST ... THE ... HOLY ... SPIRIT. Where do these jerks get the idea that petty stuff will knock them out of heaven? Satan WORKS there, for God's sake!

The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
If Paul were alive today, there'd be a viral news story about him getting caught in a boy's pants in about two days.

The sexually secure just simply won't need to harp on it this much. Jesus.

15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!
Prostitutes are HOW you get Jesus!

Tamar cosplayed as one to get knocked up. Is an ancestor of Jesus.
Rahab was one. Is an ancestor of Jesus.

While not technically a prostitute, Bathsheba was a married woman, just not to David.

21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.
Paul: I welcome those churches that sent me detailed lists of all the sins you have committed. I keep them in my bathroom for ... research ....

What is it about premarital sexual acts that god doesn't like?
And why can men frequently have extramarital sex but not women?

He loves intimacy in relationship to marriage.
There aren't very many examples in the bible I can think of, though. Even Joseph disappears early on in Jesus' story, which must mean he made good on his threat of divorce.

I'm not sure that the Bible really says ANYTHING about premarital sex, because it tends to suggest that if you have sex with someone, you have married them.
Yeah, it's not like Adam and Eve ever get married. He just announces he's going to have sex with her and then he does.

Even just running around naked could be considered impure.
David argued it wasn't really that big of a deal when he did it.

"And a man who will take his sister, his father’s daughter or his mother’s daughter, and see her nudity, and she will see his nudity, it is shameful. And they will be cut off… (Lev. 20:17)
But Abraham and ... dang, there was someone else.... Adam? That's both sister and daughter, sorta.

I always interpreted the Song of Solomon as a metaphor of God's love for the Church/Israel.
It's a royal love song. And IIRC, the man just comes in to have sex with her and then goes out and stays out in the fields all day while she's home alone. Yeah, that's not suspicious at all....

Calling a woman "my sister" was not an indication of one's family relationship to her, but of one's emotional intimacy with her.
It's kind of like those freak men who call their wives "mother"?

meaning sex that does not lead to life.
God seemed to resent the lives of the nephilim.

What God teaches you is that there is a good way and a wrong way of doing things.
Given that supposedly God doesn't have sex, what makes Him the authority on it?

Zeus did anyone and anything. He'd have a lot more practical advice to share, no?

:p
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, I don't really have a framework within which to understand your comment.

I don't have any idea what Jews consider to be a marriage. My own ideas are quite basic. I already had one of those "In sickness and in health, till death do we part" ones and it was of no value.

People with a high need for authority and high need for order made many rules. I think that if a couple say in their hearts they are one, they are married, with or without coitus.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
There aren't very many examples in the bible I can think of, though. Even Joseph disappears early on in Jesus' story, which must mean he made good on his threat of divorce.

Why would we believe the worst when it says he had more children?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
God seemed to resent the lives of the nephilim.
This was sex based on lust and abuse.
Given that supposedly God doesn't have sex, what makes Him the authority on it?
Lets say i build a machine that can calculate million mathematical calculations per second.
This machine have a way of operation. a good way that will get the most out of the machine, and a wrong way that will get the worst out of the machine.
Lets say there is a man that his entire life does mathematical calculations.
Would you ask the mathematician how to operate the machine or the man who built it?
Zeus did anyone and anything. He'd have a lot more practical advice to share, no?
:p
Lol... Maybe on how to treat woman the wrong way ;)
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Why would we believe the worst when it says he had more children?
He wanted a divorce from the get go. Kid Jesus was a brat and for some bizarre reason they didn't have him stoned to death as per the Law. He disappears from the story shortly afterwards. Jesus has "issues" with family for the rest of his life. Jesus is far too "Freudian" for there to have been a pleasant family life there.

This was sex based on lust and abuse.
The bible could care less about consent.

Would you ask the mathematician how to operate the machine or the man who built it?
Have you ever watched people not realize their answers on a calculator are wrong?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
The bible could care less about consent.
This is as far from the truth as you can get.
The bible is filled with stories showing how bad a non consent sex is wrong.
In fact, almost a whole tribe of the Jews was eliminated due to some people who raped a woman.
I think you are mixing it up with reading of stories telling how people acted and not how they should have acted.
Have you ever watched people not realize their answers on a calculator are wrong?
Sorry, I don't understand the question nor the analogy.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Somehow I missed that Joseph had more children. Please give me Chapter and Verse?
KenS seems to have left the premises, so allow me:

Matthew 12:46
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.

Matthew 13:55
55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas

Mark 6:3
3 Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him.

John 2:12
12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.

Acts 1:14
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

1 Corinthians 9:5
5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?

Galatians 1:19
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

Busy guy, that Joseph. Of course this assumes god wasn't the father of his brothers, and that Mary wasn't messin' around with some other guy.

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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Somehow I missed that Joseph had more children. Please give me Chapter and Verse?
Matthew 1:24 When Joseph awoke from his dream, he did all that the angel of the Lord instructed him to do. He took Mary to be his wife, 25 but they refrained from having sex until she gave birth to her son, whom they named “Jesus.”

Matthew 12: 47 Then someone said, “Look, your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to have a word with you.”

Mark 6: 3 Isn’t this Mary’s son, the carpenter, the brother of Jacob, Joseph, Judah, and Simon? And don’t his sisters all live here in Nazareth?” And they took offense at him.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Matthew 1:24 When Joseph awoke from his dream, he did all that the angel of the Lord instructed him to do. He took Mary to be his wife, 25 but they refrained from having sex until she gave birth to her son, whom they named “Jesus.”

Matthew 12: 47 Then someone said, “Look, your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to have a word with you.”

Mark 6: 3 Isn’t this Mary’s son, the carpenter, the brother of Jacob, Joseph, Judah, and Simon? And don’t his sisters all live here in Nazareth?” And they took offense at him.

Thank you. I had somehow not made that connection.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I ask because Song of Solomon (Song of Songs) stands in direct contrast to everything else god has to say about premarital sex, which is that it's immoral, impure, lewd, and amounts to debauchery..
Apparently you don't understand that Song of Songs is not about premarital sex. The poem is the greatest celebration of love and marriage I know of.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Apparently you don't understand that Song of Songs is not about premarital sex.
Yes, I know. It's a collection of love poems spoken alternately by a man and a woman and by other folk. The songs celebrate the joy and goodness of human love. Love that includes sex, which happens to be premarital.



.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, I know. It's a collection of love poems spoken alternately by a man and a woman and by other folk. The songs celebrate the joy and goodness of human love. Love that includes sex, which happens to be premarital.



.
Skwim: why do I have to spell it out for you that it's about sex between a husband and wife?

For one thing, back in the good old days of ancient Israel, there was no such thing as premarital sex. Having sex was one way couples married. The best you can do is argue that it is their wedding night, but you can't argue that it was premarital sex.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Yes, I know. It's a collection of love poems spoken alternately by a man and a woman and by other folk. The songs celebrate the joy and goodness of human love. Love that includes sex, which happens to be premarital.



.
I don't know when huumans became so officious about Marriage. As they did it, getting Married became this complicated, costly debacle. I'm just pretty sure that when couples have coitus, they are married. Nothing else is needed. No divorce is possible.

The "vows" are meaningless and lack effect, and it has all become a pagan ritual.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Skwim: why do I have to spell it out for you that it's about sex between a husband and wife?
Because I fail to see any reason to assume it is. Give me a reason, A good one.

For one thing, back in the good old days of ancient Israel, there was no such thing as premarital sex.
OMG! How old are you? . . . . . . . . Never mind, I see you're 57, which is far too old to be so naive.

But if this is your evidence that the two were husband and wife, I gotta reject it.

.
 
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