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Featured God's Distaste For Premarial Sex AND Why Is Song Of Solomon In The Bible?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Skwim, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I ask because Song of Solomon (Song of Songs) stands in direct contrast to everything else god has to say about premarital sex, which is that it's immoral, impure, lewd, and amounts to debauchery.

    One of the most telling pieces of Song of Solomon that extols premarital sex is chapter 7 verses 6-13

    6 How beautiful you are and how pleasing, my love, with your delights!
    7 Your stature is like that of the palm, and your breasts like clusters of fruit.
    8 I said, “I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.” May your breasts be like clusters of grapes on the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples,

    She

    9 and your mouth like the best wine. May the wine go straight to my beloved, flowing gently over lips and teeth.
    10 I belong to my beloved, and his desire is for me.
    11 Come, my beloved, let us go to the countryside, let us spend the night in the villages.
    12 Let us go early to the vineyards to see if the vines have budded, if their blossoms have opened, and if the pomegranates are in bloom— there I will give you my love.
    13 The mandrakes give forth fragrance, and over our doors are all choice fruits, new as well as old, which I have laid up for you, O my beloved.​


    Cool!

    But then we have all those instances where god shares his revulsion for premarital sex, which I gathered by Googling "sex and the Bible." (The most complete website I came across was "25 Top Bible Verses About Sex - What Does the Bible Say?" put out by 25 Top Bible Verses About Sex - What Does the Bible Say?).

    Biblestudytools.com starts out with the following advice.

    God gives us very clear guidance in His Word on how we can best experience the gift of intimacy and love that He gave to us through sex. If you are wondering what the Bible says about pre-marital sex or marital sex, use the verses below to study in context what God would have for you to learn. Sex was meant as wonderful experience between husband and wife to provide physical, emotional and spiritual bonding. If you are feeling overwhelmed with a sexual sin remember that God promises to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). God wants to pour grace on you so you can move forward in healing from hurtful sexual choices and into a place of fulfillment!

    Among the 25, it lists these 9 (not all of the 25 verses pertain to premarital sex)

    Galatians 5:19
    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

    Hebrews 13:4
    4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

    Ephesians 5:3
    3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.

    1 Corinthians 6:9

    9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

    1 Corinthians 6:13-20

    13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
    14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.
    15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!
    16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”
    17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
    18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.
    19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
    20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

    2 Corinthians 12:21
    21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

    1 Thessalonians 4:3-5

    3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality;
    4 that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable,
    5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God;

    Mark 7:22-23

    22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
    23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”

    Matthew 5:28

    28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


    Curiously, or maybe not, none of these say why premarital sex is immoral, impure, lewd, and debauchery. They simply describe what they amount to. And in light of Song of Solomon, wherein god pretty much glorifies premarital sex, this question becomes all the more salient.

    What is it about premarital sexual acts that god doesn't like? What, exactly, makes them immoral, impure, lewd, and acts of debauchery?

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    #1 Skwim, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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  2. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    The dirtiest verse in the Bible is Ezekiel 23:20...

    "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses." (NIV)

    (Unless you count the six instances of "pisseth" in the KJV.)
     
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  3. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Lack of commitment? You would actually have to dig deeper to the meaning of intimacy in relation to God. He loves intimacy in relationship to marriage.

    Wouldn't you agree that there are a lot of broken hearts for the lack of commitment?
     
  4. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    I'm not sure that the Bible really says ANYTHING about premarital sex, because it tends to suggest that if you have sex with someone, you have married them.

    (See one of the verses you quoted, 1 Corinthians 16:16... Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”)

    If you have sex with a woman who's already married, then it's adultery; but if you have sex with an unmarried woman, you have created a marriage relationship. Hopefully you will execute your duties as a husband to all of your wives.
     
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  5. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    "Commitment"? What are you talking about?

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  6. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Chapter 4 calls the female "my bride" 5 times and chapter 5 does it once. How did we come to the conclusion that SoS is talking about a couple who is not yet married?
     
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  7. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    That momentarily crossed my mind, but other than adultery, what sex act in marriage would be considered to be immoral or impure? And where is this suggestion that the participants are married?

    So, what does “The two will become one flesh.” mean? That they become married?

    That's all it took back in the olden days? To get married all one has to do is have sex with them? That's not how I remembered how Hebrew marriage laws go.

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  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Chapter 4 and 5 of what book?
     
  9. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    The same. 4:8-12, 5:1.
     
  10. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    OTHER than adultery? Isn't that enough? And then there are the other sexual acts outside of marriage that are proscribed. You quoted 1 Corinthians 6:9--men who have sex with men--and then having sex with animals would be another (Leviticus 18:23, 20:15). Even just running around naked could be considered impure.

    That's how the Bible speaks of marriage, yes. (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:8, Ephesians 5:31)

    It seems that God will recognize a marriage even without the paperwork (back to 1 Corinthians 16:15-16 that you quoted above).
     
  11. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Sorry, just trying to sort the NONSENSE
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    Marriage is an invention of man. I think that infidelity and promiscuity are a no no. What I call the OT has examples of Polygamy, but I am not sure that is the first choice of the Creator.
     
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  12. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    SoS 4:9 says "Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse. " So god is not only condoning incest, but marriage between siblings. Got a chapter and verse for this? Because I came up with this from Leviticus,

    "And a man who will take his sister, his father’s daughter or his mother’s daughter, and see her nudity, and she will see his nudity, it is shameful. And they will be cut off…
    (Lev. 20:17)
     
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  13. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I'm sorry, I don't really have a framework within which to understand your comment.
     
  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    So we're in agreement on the marriage part, right?

    But your're absolutely right. And then in SoS 5:2 it says, "open for me my sister, my love, my dove, my complete". So G-d is not only condoning marriage between siblings, but bestiality.

    "And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death; and ye shall slay the beast... (Lev. 20:15)

    Isn't that crazy, bro?
     
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  15. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    So your contention is that premarital sex was just fine and dandy. "Come here my love and spread your butt cheeks." Or, "Open wide. Daddy's got a present for you."

    No it doesn't.

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  16. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    I thought we just established that my contention is that there is no such thing as premarital sex. Try to pay attention.

    Yes, it does.

    "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall become united and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Genesis 2:24

    "And said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be united firmly (joined inseparably) to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh" --Matthew 19:5

    "And the two shall become one flesh, so that they are no longer two, but one flesh." --Mark 10:8

    "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." --Ephesians 5:31
     
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  17. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    You're being too literal. She wasn't related to him, just a kindred spirit--like a brother in Christ.
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Well... maybe as an atheist, you wouldn't understand?
     
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  19. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Only if you agree that god condones incest and marrying one's sibling.

    So it seems, doesn't it. ;) But both of us know that "dove" probably signifies peacefulness, and that as a metaphor, "sister" wouldn't signify anything a man would feel towards his love. Therefore, "sister" doesn't function as a metaphor at all, but as kin. A very close kin.

    And as I said to Axe Elf, "So your contention is that premarital sex was just fine and dandy. "Come here my love and spread your butt cheeks." Or, "Open wide. Daddy's got a present for you." The immorality, impurity, lewdness debauchery god was talking about didn't apply to sex between single people at all. Go ahead kids, you're fine. :thumbsup:

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  20. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Nah! :D

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