sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
i am quite familiar with the Jerome (as well as several other eminent and scholarly commentaries). That concept is basic to honest interpretive work.
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Gods 10 commandments
- Thread starter WALL
- Start date
Well yea, since all authority has been given to Jesus in heaven and on earth. Matthew 28:18
CMike
Well-Known Member
Not authority from the G-D of the jews.
WALL
Member
2 TIMOTHY 3 [15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Well....according to scripture one CAN write about what is not known when givin by inspiration of God
WALL
Member
ISAIAH 48 [17] THUS SAITH THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:
So tell me then, do you believe there is 2 Redeemers? Could you tell me who the Redeemer is in above scripture?
WALL
Member
One cant write about what is not known? Most of the bible is about prophecy. Its bad theology to believe in these prophecies? Well...now I know where yer comin from. I do believe. No wonder we don't see eye to eye.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
That's not what the text says. The text says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God." Not, "Some scripture is about stuff we don't know about." There's a difference between "being inspired to write" and "guessing into existence a completely different religion."
Look at it this way: I dare you to write Christian theology secretly based upon some as-yet unheard of something that will happen 400 years from now, that serves to completely change your understanding of the now, in ways that completely change the meaning of what you're writing. It simply can't be done.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
To the writer of Isaiah, God is the redeemer of Israel. Period.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Prophecy is known, not unknown. Unfortunately for you, none of the prophecy in the OT imagines the Christian Jesus.
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
Which is true. As the verse makes clear the reference is to the speaker, whose name is the tetragrammaton.
In addition, of course, is that Jewish conception of redemption is not the Christian conception of redemption.
Peter
WALL
Member
Just curious. This question is for all or any Jews which read this question. In above scripture you find the words "LORD thy God". Its the word God im curious about.
Its taken from the word ʾelōhîm. Says here its a plural word. Is that what you believe?
PS-Not lookin for an arguement
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The word "God" is an English translation that actually is taken from the German language name for God. In Hebrew, there are many names for God mentioned in Torah, with "Eloheim" just being one of them. The root word "El" is from the Sumerian language, and the "im" implies plurality, but since the Torah says over and over that "God is One" and that "there is no other", there's been different theories as to why the plural was used. One is that it may refer to God and the heavenly court of angels.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
Just as an example look at the 9th chapter of Genesis. In all the verses dealing with what Elohim says, the verbs related to Elohim are all first person singular. Elohim referring to Elohim uses "I" and "My" not "We" and "Our."
Peter
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Bingo! Thank you. The conception of redemption present in Isaiah is incongruent with that in John's gospel -- or anywhere else in the NT.
WALL
Member
Hi RabbiO
Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
In your book does it say in "our image"? The word again is Elohim
GawdAweful
Pseudo-Philosopher
When speaking of 'the law' the Jews had been instructed in, Paul included parts of the 'Ten Commandments'
17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the law and boast of your relation to God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed in the law, 19 and if you are sure that you are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth-- 21 you then who teach others, will you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
Romans 2:17-23
And, again, immediately after discussing how death releases one from the law of marriage (Romans 7:1-3) as an example, Paul states in verses 4 to 7:
4 Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. 7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."
The 'Law' that we have been discharged from includes "Thou shalt not covet".
I see no clear evidence that when the New Testament writers speak of 'the law' that it is anything but the entire Law including the Ten Commandments, regardless of how the OT organizes them. There is no clear differentiation.
In short, "Nope", we don't gotta keep them...
5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses."...
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab'bas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 with the following letter: "The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili'cia, greeting. 24 Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. - Acts 15
17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the law and boast of your relation to God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed in the law, 19 and if you are sure that you are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth-- 21 you then who teach others, will you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
Romans 2:17-23
And, again, immediately after discussing how death releases one from the law of marriage (Romans 7:1-3) as an example, Paul states in verses 4 to 7:
4 Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. 7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."
The 'Law' that we have been discharged from includes "Thou shalt not covet".
I see no clear evidence that when the New Testament writers speak of 'the law' that it is anything but the entire Law including the Ten Commandments, regardless of how the OT organizes them. There is no clear differentiation.
In short, "Nope", we don't gotta keep them...
5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses."...
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab'bas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 with the following letter: "The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili'cia, greeting. 24 Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. - Acts 15
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WALL
Member
Surely there is clear differentiation
EXODUS 24 [12] And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, AND a law, AND commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
In the old testament we can see that the law AND the ten commandments are separate. And means and.
1 COR.7 [18] Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.[19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
In above scripture we find that even though circumcision was nailed to the cross, we are still to be keeping Gods ten commandments
JOHN 7 [21] Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.[22] Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers
and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.[23] If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?Jesus himself separates the law of Moses and the 10 commandments. He clearly separates the sabbath day {4th commandment} on which no work is to be done and the law of circumcision being done on the sabbath so as the law of Moses be not broken.
WALL
Member
This is what ive talked about earlier.
But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses
You have taken a scripture that is clearly speaking of circumcision and applied it to the 10 commandments
As for acts 15
ACTS 15 [17] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. [18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among THE GENTILES are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that THEY ABSTAIN FROM POLLUTIONS OF IDOLS, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
ACTS 15 as a whole was speaking as to whether gentiles needed to be circumcized or not.
ACTS 15 [4] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. [5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That IT WAS NEEDFUL TO CIRCUMCISE THEM, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
ACTS 15 [24] Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, YE MUST BE CIRCUMCISED, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Nothing to do with the 10 commandments. So lets look into what pollution of idols {V 20} is all about. What I found was very as always, when you let scripture interpret scripture
LEVITICUS 19 [3] Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and KEEP MY SABBATHS: I am the Lord your God. [4] TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, NOR MAKE TO YOURSELVES MOLTEN GODS: I am the Lord your God.
LEVITICUS 26 [1]Ye shall MAKE YOU NO IDOLS NOR GRAVEN IMAGE, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. [2] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.
EZEKIEL 20 [16]Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, BUT POLLUTED MY SABBATHS: FOR THEIR HEART WENT AFTER THEIR IDOLS.
I dont know what the connection might be as to why graven images and idols are a sign that you dont keep Gods sabbath but if the WORD says so I believe it. I know the churches that do keep the sabbath dont have any standing images or crosses. Well, least the ones I know. Also, the guys and gals that go to these churches dont wear molten gods about their necks.