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God=perfection but the universe =mistakes?

robtex

Veteran Member
angellous_evangellous said:
I think that you need to qualify P4. How have you quanitatively reviewed the entire universe and confirmed that it is not without error?

p4 qualfied: That which lacks any fault inconsistancy or any deviation from a flawless arch-type universe.

some examples include:

1) planets not designed to hold life (if no life why make them)
2) humans born with uncurable dieses
3) genetic defects
4) genetic mutation
5) meteors that crash into planets
6) starts that burn out
7) creations that are not able to communicate with God but want to
8) deep water fish that need oxygen to breath (whales)
9) the duckbill platypus
10 ) atheists
 
Cordoba said:
Hello Saint Xtreme:

<< since Lucifer is a fallen Archangel and hence not a perfect creature of light >>

This statement is incorrect.

Lucifer belongs to another type of God's creatures called Jinn. They are made of fire, not light.

God created angels in a way that they can only obey Him.

They can't disobey (i.e. they don't have a free will like humans and jinn).
Hmmm, I seemed to haved erred yet again. It is becoming a rather unfortunate habit. I could have sworn that in the Bible it says that Lucifer was a fallen angel, but anyways my point still carries some merit.:woohoo: Why would a perfect God create a being in direct opposition to himself to endanger his greatest creation?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
robtex said:
p4 qualfied: That which lacks any fault inconsistancy or any deviation from a flawless arch-type universe.

some examples include:

1) planets not designed to hold life (if no life why make them)
2) humans born with uncurable dieses
3) genetic defects
4) genetic mutation
5) meteors that crash into planets
6) starts that burn out
7) creations that are not able to communicate with God but want to
8) deep water fish that need oxygen to breath (whales)
9) the duckbill platypus
10 ) atheists
I greatly appreciate your qualification here.

#1 suggests the priority of human life from a human perspective. God could have great pleasure in the vast emptiness of the universe. Gosh, if you created the earth and saw what a mess humanity made of it, would you want to have a whole cosmos full of folks like us? And if he had a planet full of folks who chose to obey and live by faith, I suspect that God would wish for the two peoples not to meet.

I suspect that you can imagine how human freewill can play a role in #2, #3, and #7. To me, #7 is the most touching. Some people can pychoanalyze the role of the faithful in prayer to the Almighty. However, there is a documented change in the phyosis (by this I mean state of mind) for those who pray and meditate. From the Xn POV, the incomprehensible Almighty is touched by faith through the grace provided in Jesus Christ. Although there is no pyhsical proof for the actual interaction with the metaphysical reality of God, Christians trust in the promise "Seek and you will find, Knock and the Door will be opened for you." In short, while #7 is touching, I must heartily disagree.

As for #5, 6, 7, 8, and 10, I don't think that you are qualified to list these as imperfections. God takes pleasure in variety and movement.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
I think you're right Saint Xtreme that the Bible does say that Lucifer was a fallen angel. The Qur'an on the other hand says he was a jinn, made of fire who had a free will.

Saint Xtreme said:
Why would a perfect God create a being in direct opposition to himself to endanger his greatest creation?
It's not a question of "endangering His greatest creation", but a question of creating beings with free will. The relation of voluntary love and obedience is different from a relation of obligatory love.

We humans have the choice of choosing between belief and disbelief, an option angels don't have. God wants us to know Him and love Him by our own free will.
 
God created the world perfect. He chose to give man freewill though. And with freewill comes the choice to do what right and wrong. The Fall is what made the earth imperfect, because sin entered into it. Why would God do this if he is omnipotent and perfect? Because he gave us a choice and he honors that choice whether it be the right one or the wrong one. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they chose the path away from him so God allowed them the consequence of their choice.. a fallen world.
 

fromthe heart

Well-Known Member
robtex said:
[QOUTE=michel]

God= perfection
God + nature +humans=lots of mistakes [/QOUTE]

If this were true and God was perfect why would he make anything that was inperfect? To say that the universe that God created can and does contain mistakes to to say God made a mistake.

In other words
P1 God is perfect
p2 that which is perfect is without error
p3 that which is of error cannot be designed from that which is perfect
p4 the universe is not without error

c1 therefore a perfect God did not make the universe.
LOL...been reading all this and it kinda made me laugh. I think to be able to know if something is perfect you'd have to see it through the eyes of the Creator...My 5 yr.old grandson has done some marvelous art work in Kindergarten and in his eyes it's perfection and he's very proud of it. The old saying beauty is in the eyes of the beholder seems to be true for perfection...who in this world can say it's IM-perfect. we don't know the outcome of God's plan. Some of my most perfect moments came from what I viewed as mistakes...but in the long run weren't they were just a lesson learned...No one here on this earth can see the BIG picture God can see so it's best to sit back enjoy laughing at ourselves for our stupidity as we walk through lifes journey and wait for the perfectness of God's eyes to enlighten us.:)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
fromthe heart said:
LOL...been reading all this and it kinda made me laugh. I think to be able to know if something is perfect you'd have to see it through the eyes of the Creator...My 5 yr.old grandson has done some marvelous art work in Kindergarten and in his eyes it's perfection and he's very proud of it. The old saying beauty is in the eyes of the beholder seems to be true for perfection...who in this world can say it's IM-perfect. we don't know the outcome of God's plan. Some of my most perfect moments came from what I viewed as mistakes...but in the long run weren't they were just a lesson learned...No one here on this earth can see the BIG picture God can see so it's best to sit back enjoy laughing at ourselves for our stupidity as we walk through lifes journey and wait for the perfectness of God's eyes to enlighten us.:)
I agree with you, FTH. This is one of the rare occasions when I have not avoided these quasi/mathematical/theology analogies. Of Course, God is an unknow quantity. When I was walking the dog this morning, an idea struck me; I remember hearing someone once sayin that everything that we know about is part of God - and, in essence, we are therefore 'component pieces' of God. I suddenly imagined the whole of our universe being part of God's anatomy (I imagined him in human form for the purpose of this idea), and we were all swimming along the 'arteries' and blood vessels of his body. At least I had a good laugh at the thought of the image!:)
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
robtex said:
p4 qualfied: That which lacks any fault inconsistancy or any deviation from a flawless arch-type universe.

some examples include:

1) planets not designed to hold life (if no life why make them)
2) humans born with uncurable dieses
3) genetic defects
4) genetic mutation
5) meteors that crash into planets
6) starts that burn out
7) creations that are not able to communicate with God but want to
8) deep water fish that need oxygen to breath (whales)
9) the duckbill platypus
10 ) atheists
All of these examples include assumptions about what "should" be the case. #1 assumes that planets should serve some purpose for their existence, and it assumes that the only purpose is to hold life. #2 and #3 assume that human suffering is an imperfection. It sure sucks from our point of view, but it's rather egocentric of us to judge it that way. Why would a duckbill platypus or a whale be an "imperfection"? Because they don't fit into neat categories? So? What if diversity is a sign of "perfection"? The more diverse the more "perfect." In which case, these animals are not flawed but wonderful, which they are. Actually, if diversity is perfection then none of these examples are imperfect. Not even #10. :)
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Saint Xtreme said:
but anyways my point still carries some merit.:woohoo: Why would a perfect God create a being in direct opposition to himself to endanger his greatest creation?
To my mind, it would be a greater mystery if God had created only beings who could not possibly oppose God. (Granted, if God had done this, we wouldn't be asking these questions.)

From my own experience, nothing is more tedious to me than someone who agrees with me all of the time. It's great to meet and commune with people with whom I share a lot in common, yes. I don't want to be constantly arguing. But even amongst my friends we have occasional disagreements, and such disagreements are how I learn new things, and for me, constantly encountering the new is what keeps life interesting. (getting back to the idea of process theology) If God wanted an exact "mirror image" of Godself, why would God create at all? Why not just be static "perfection"?

In the Sufi tradition, God loves Iblis/Satan for rebelling (but still punishes him). Even Satan, the arch-antagonist fits into God's "plan." I personally don't know if the "plan" is as formalized as the Abrahamic traditions tend to paint it. The "plan" could have been just to create and see what wonderfully surprising things happen out of all this chaos.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
lilithu said:
To my mind, it would be a greater mystery if God had created only beings who could not possibly oppose God. (Granted, if God had done this, we wouldn't be asking these questions.)

From my own experience, nothing is more tedious to me than someone who agrees with me all of the time. It's great to meet and commune with people with whom I share a lot in common, yes. I don't want to be constantly arguing. But even amongst my friends we have occasional disagreements, and such disagreements are how I learn new things, and for me, constantly encountering the new is what keeps life interesting. (getting back to the idea of process theology) If God wanted an exact "mirror image" of Godself, why would God create at all? Why not just be static "perfection"?

In the Sufi tradition, God loves Iblis/Satan for rebelling (but still punishes him). Even Satan, the arch-antagonist fits into God's "plan." I personally don't know if the "plan" is as formalized as the Abrahamic traditions tend to paint it. The "plan" could have been just to create and see what wonderfully surprising things happen out of all this chaos.
Well, I for one think that you're completely wrong.:)
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
1) planets not designed to hold life (if no life why make them)
yes because we all know the end all and be all of the univerce is life
Honestly just because we don't like it doesn't mean that something out there can't or won't adapt to it. Humanity is not the center of the univerce, such an argument fixates on a falce human-centric argument.
2) humans born with uncurable dieses
many diseases once thought uncurable are treatable and in some cases curable today. Not to be harsh but with the fact that we have no biological controls other than disease and our own self distructive natures, perhaps disease isn't an entirely bad thing from a 'diety' perspective. Overpopulation causes more problems than the odd illness.
3) genetic defects
The random nature of sexual reproduction means that this is inevitable. If randomness was not part of the system than we would clone ourselves rather than make new individuals. This is a bad thing for a species as it means that they will be less equiped to handle obsticals to survival such as environmental change. The price of change is that things will occasionaly go wrong.
4) genetic mutation
Again see above. Unless you want everyone to be copies of each other. (boring)
5) meteors that crash into planets
bad according to whom? Meteors bring extra solar and extra planetary material to the system. They are a force for shaping the planet (Crater lake) and can triger mass extinctions that while they wipe out mass numbers give life a new start at producing variation and change.
We would not be here if it wern't for the odd meteor. :D
6) starts that burn out
The basic elements that make up life and in fact most of univerce were created by burnt out stars. The stars took the lightest earliest elements and pounded them into the variety we have today. Without the first stars dying we would not exist. Hydrogen is turned into Helieum and so on to the heavy elements and then blamo they get spread out into the univerce to form planets and eventually life. I'm personally very greatfull to those first stars. :D
7) creations that are not able to communicate with God but want to
who says 'god' wants to talk... imagine if we could just hold conversations all the time. We would never think for ourselves. "Should I do ______?" "Why is ______ like this?" Lack of easy comunication means we have to stand on our own two feet as it were.
[qutoe]8) deep water fish that need oxygen to breath (whales) [/quote] Whales arn't fish... given the mammal bodies they had they have done wonderfully well at adapting to a difficult environment. They are beautifully evolved. Fish by the way need oxygen as well, they just get it a different way. Mudskippers and other fish take to the land dispite having gills and in some cases poor lungs. Life is all about exploration eaven if you don't already have perfect gear. :D
9) the duckbill platypus
Nothing wrong with the platypus. Its beak is a highly developed sensory organ for finding food in dark waters. Its thick fur protects it from the cold water and its reproductive stratagy has served the monotremes for over 100 million years. What is wrong with the platypus?
10 ) atheists
Nothing wrong with athiests either. Athiests ask probing questions that keep people on thier toes. Questions are the heart of existance IMHO. If you never question you never learn.
Belief is not the end-all/be-all of my religion it is just one means of living a good ballanced life. Religion is the way we connect with creator, if you don't feel the need to connect with creator then that is good for you. Everyone walks thier own path.

wa:do
 
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