God=perfection but the universe =mistakes?

[robtex]

[QOUTE=michel]

God= perfection
God + nature +humans=lots of mistakes [/QOUTE]

If this were true and God was perfect why would he make anything that was inperfect? To say that the universe that God created can and does contain mistakes to to say God made a mistake.

In other words
P1 God is perfect
p2 that which is perfect is without error
p3 that which is of error cannot be designed from that which is perfect
p4 the universe is not without error

c1 therefore a perfect God did not make the universe.

 

[Cordoba]

I disagree with your line of logic, robtex.

God is Perfect.

He creates what He wants the way He likes.

He created angels for example as perfect creatures of light.

When He created humans, He gave them an attribute which angels don't have, which is free will. As such, we have the freedom to choose between alternatives.

As for this universe, it's not an eternal place. 14 billion years, it came into existence, and in due course it will cease to exist. What is eternal is Paradise in the Hereafter, and that will be perfect.

Hope that helps answer a few questions.

All the best.

 

[michel]

[QOUTE=michel]

God= perfection
God + nature +humans=lots of mistakes [/QOUTE]

If this were true and God was perfect why would he make anything that was inperfect? To say that the universe that God created can and does contain mistakes to to say God made a mistake.

In other words
P1 God is perfect
p2 that which is perfect is without error
p3 that which is of error cannot be designed from that which is perfect
p4 the universe is not without error

c1 therefore a perfect God did not make the universe.

I still cannot see the illogicism in the theory of a deity who tossed the pre big bang materials into the universe (That he had to create anyway); he could then lay the foundations for us to build shanty towns on.

 

[cardero]

Robtex writes: If this were true and God was perfect why would he make anything that was inperfect? To say that the universe that God created can and does contain mistakes to to say God made a mistake.

I would use the analogy of parents creating a child (though it is not my favorite analogy). A child is ignorant and imperfect yet the parents may be intelligent and responsible. When the child grows up, the child may not take on the same aspects of their parents (personality, interests, morality, religion, career). This is why parents are not imprisoned when an unlawful act is committed by their offspring. I think this is what GOD’s relationship is to us, minus the responsibility of parental care and upbringing.
In other words, GOD may be credited for our existence but is blameless in the way that we or our society behaves and acts. There are no warranties or extended guarantees on parts and labor or morals and standards.

 

[Halcyon]

Gnostic literature states that the God who created this universe was not perfect, thus the universe is not perfect.

My personal point of view is that the true God is beyond limited human concepts of perfection and imperfection, God is not perfect nor is It flawed, it is both at the same time.

As for this universe, it's not an eternal place. 14 billion years, it came into existence, and in due course it will cease to exist. What is eternal is Paradise in the Hereafter, and that will be perfect.

Current scientific theory suggests that the universe will exit forever, just not in its present form.

 

[Sunstone]

The fact that there are a myraid imperfections in the universe reveals to us that the universe was created by God when He was still in graduate school. It was actually created by Him as part of His masters thesis. Had He created the universe for his PhD, the universe would have had many fewer imperfections.

Slightly more seriously, Does God have a learning curve? Does he make mistakes and then learns from those mistakes? If no, then what was the Flood all about? If yes, then what kind of universe would He create now that He has (presumably) learned something from his errors creating this one?

 

[cardero]

The fact that there are a myraid imperfections in the universe reveals to us that the universe was created by God when He was still in graduate school. It was actually created by Him as part of His masters thesis. Had He created the universe for his PhD, the universe would have had many fewer imperfections.
If yes, then what kind of universe would He create now that He has (presumably) learned something from his errors creating this one?

I would suggest that GOD had to come to the same awareness and understanding that we have had to adapt to in this physical existence. The only difference being is that GOD has had many more moments to perfect himself, I would even go as far to speculate before the creation of other entities which gives GOD a great advantage when it comes to impressions. I also believe that GOD does not have any regrets in his/her creations. If there is something that we find imperfect instead of finding a solution to correct the imperfection ourselves it seems like a easier solution and a natural human tendency to blame GOD or the people who propose to understand GOD.

 

[Cordoba]

Sunstone:

<< If no, then what was the Flood all about? >>

Do you mean the great flood?

The flood was about people who lived at the time of Noah and refused to believe in God.

They also refused to get on board Noah's ark!

That was their free choice.

 

[Cordoba]

Halcyon:

<<Current scientific theory suggests that the universe will exit forever, just not in its present form>>

If the Big Crunch does not take place, as some scientists claim, God will one day intervene and bring this universe to an end.

God says in The Qur'an:

"The Day when We will fold the heaven like the folding of a [written] sheet for the records. As We began the first creation, We will repeat it. {That is] a promise binding upon Us. Indeed, We will do it." (The Qur'an, 21:104)

Let's hope we're not around when it happens!

All the best.

 

[Halcyon]

If the Big Crunch does not take place, as some scientists claim, God will one day intervene and bring this universe to an end.

Why would He bother?

They also refused to get on board Noah's ark!

That was their free choice.

I'm pretty sure they weren't allowed on the ark?

 

[lilithu]

The fact that there are a myraid imperfections in the universe reveals to us that the universe was created by God when He was still in graduate school. It was actually created by Him as part of His masters thesis. Had He created the universe for his PhD, the universe would have had many fewer imperfections.

lol! I have seen many far-from-perfect PhD dissertations. But frubals for the picture of God as a graduate student!

Slightly more seriously, Does God have a learning curve? Does he make mistakes and then learns from those mistakes? If no, then what was the Flood all about?

It seems possibly so. In several places in Jewish scripture/Christian OT, God voices regret. My understanding is that the idea that God is "perfect" is a Greek/Stoic idea that merged with the Hebrew tradition of the personal god who acts within history, to form Christianity. Specifically, the Gospel of John talks about God as unchanging perfection, and somehow that idea predominates even tho there are plenty of instances in scripture that seem to contradict it. It is an attractive meme.

Also, I'm still trying to get the hang of process theology but it seems that they would say something similar. That God "evolves" along with creation as part of a process. Something like that.

If yes, then what kind of universe would He create now that He has (presumably) learned something from his errors creating this one?

The one that we have right now.

 

[Saint Xtreme]

I disagree with your line of logic, robtex.

God is Perfect.

He creates what He wants the way He likes.

He created angels for example as perfect creatures of light.

Your logic is flawed as well since Lucifer is a fallen Archangel and hence not a perfect creature of light.

 

[lilithu]

If this were true and God was perfect why would he make anything that was inperfect? To say that the universe that God created can and does contain mistakes to to say God made a mistake.

Well, a perfect God could intentionally create an imperfect world, in which case, God did not make a mistake. But it does call into question why God chose to do so.

But not everyone believes that God is perfect. As Halcyon said, the Gnostics believe that this imperfect world was created by an imperfect DemiUrge. My admittedly limited understanding of both Jewish and Islamic mysticism says that the universe is corrupt (in our eyes) where ever God is not, or cannot be seen by our eyes.

Personally, I agree with Halcyon: God is neither perfect nor imperfect. God is. It would be a mistake to try to constrain the nature of God by the limitations of our own conceptions.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

[QOUTE=michel]

God= perfection
God + nature +humans=lots of mistakes [/QOUTE]

If this were true and God was perfect why would he make anything that was inperfect? To say that the universe that God created can and does contain mistakes to to say God made a mistake.

In other words
P1 God is perfect
p2 that which is perfect is without error
p3 that which is of error cannot be designed from that which is perfect
p4 the universe is not without error

c1 therefore a perfect God did not make the universe.

I think that you need to qualify P4. How have you quanitatively reviewed the entire universe and confirmed that it is not without error?

Are you unhappy with the construct of the universe? Any errors in workmanship are under warranty, of course, for the lifetime of the customer.

I suspect that you are referring to the mess that humanity made out of this earth, and are not drawing conclusions off of physical evidence that scientists have collected which indicate that the universe seems to have errors. In that case, from the Christian POV, God created it perfectly, and gave humanity the power of choice. In this power of choice, we can honor God or rebel, and this rebellion brings choas into our infintismally small section of the universe.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Gnostic literature states that the God who created this universe was not perfect, thus the universe is not perfect.

My personal point of view is that the true God is beyond limited human concepts of perfection and imperfection, God is not perfect nor is It flawed, it is both at the same time.

Current scientific theory suggests that the universe will exit forever, just not in its present form.

I suspect that you are not actually reading scientists here. If the second law of thermodynamics were disproven, I imagine that it would cause quite a stir in science. After all, it is a law and not a theory. With respect to the human POV, the universe will last a freaking long time, bot nothing that exists physically is exempt from the second law of thermodynamics.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I have seen many far-from-perfect PhD dissertations. But frubals for the picture of God as a graduate student!



I have too. In literally every book I have ever read, I have found some errors. I recently took a class from an internationally known scholar. He gave us copies of his books and articles, and I received one that he had recently published. Apparantly he gave me his personal copy, which he had gone through and edited with a red pen... I asked him if he wanted it back and he said to keep it. Very cool.

None of us are perfect....

 

[Master Vigil]

It's true robtex, not all view god as perfect. Even Tao is not perfect in the sense you use. All of the myriad things, the mistakes, the destruction, the creation, etc... all makes up the natural flow of things. Which is perfect, since life comes from death, and death from life; and things get better from mistakes, etc... That is how its meant to be.

 

[michel]

Well, a perfect God could intentionally create an imperfect world, in which case, God did not make a mistake. But it does call into question why God chose to do so.

But not everyone believes that God is perfect. As Halcyon said, the Gnostics believe that this imperfect world was created by an imperfect DemiUrge. My admittedly limited understanding of both Jewish and Islamic mysticism says that the universe is corrupt (in our eyes) where ever God is not, or cannot be seen by our eyes.

Personally, I agree with Halcyon: God is neither perfect nor imperfect. God is. It would be a mistake to try to constrain the nature of God by the limitations of our own conceptions.

Ah lilithu, Namaste.

I look forward to your posts; they make me realize how little I know.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

...p3 that which is of error cannot be designed from that which is perfect...

Respectfully, I would disagree with this preseumption. While it is a possibility, it is not an inevitability.

 

[Cordoba]

Hello Saint Xtreme:

<< since Lucifer is a fallen Archangel and hence not a perfect creature of light >>

This statement is incorrect.

Lucifer belongs to another type of God's creatures called Jinn. They are made of fire, not light.

God created angels in a way that they can only obey Him.

They can't disobey (i.e. they don't have a free will like humans and jinn).