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Featured God, Gods, & Societies Around the World

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by metis, Apr 16, 2020.

  1. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I think I am... since. according to Jewish scriptures, the people outside of the Ancient Near East come the lineage of Noah. Actually, it answered your question - and was answered in other posts. What it appears to me is that no answer will suffice for you, Am I wrong?

    That was established from my first post. Remember, I am not the judge nor am I God.

    You changed the subject.... why?

    And the answer to your question (and erroneous statement), in Christian terms, simple thought punishment isn't a crime.
     
  2. Left Coast

    Left Coast Still Gay
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    The fact that the Bible claims something does not make it correct. You recognize this, yes? So the fact that the Bible claims all people came from Noah doesn't make it a fact. And even if they did, the reality is that the vast majority of them don't know that. So again, the issue is whether people should be punished for being ignorant of what a deity expects them to know. Appealing to Biblical genealogies does not address that point. Appealing to Jewish prophets does not address that point. What did address the point was you saying: I don't know. So I thank you for that, at least.

    I did? The topic from the OP has been the criteria God uses to judge people. I'm still addressing that. Are you?

    Oh okay, so God will not punish people in the afterlife for not believing in Jesus? Believing in Jesus is not a requirement of salvation?
     
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  3. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    good grief man
    just establishing the terms..
    long posts are too long
    one point at a time
    the last entry answers the question you had asked...i assumed you meant for me to answer
    i should have been more specific in retrospect then
     
  4. Tambourine

    Tambourine Well-Known Member

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    My argument wasn't about "the terms" but about the nature of academic discourse on the subject, and the questions were rhetorical.
    Sorry if that caused confusion or grief.
     
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  5. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    well just consider it supportive material as i agree with what you were saying in that post
     
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  6. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Yeah, one thing leads to another, at times. That is why.
     
  7. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    If you read through carefully, you would find that it is an open ended discussion - not presenting dogmatic positions as you are. Let me explain:

    So... this isn't a claim "that I am right" and "you are wrong" issue.

    the fact that the Bible claims something does make it incorrect either. I'm not being dogmatic about this... you can believe it isn't true if you so desire.

    I guess, it's your projected tone that concerns. me


    And I thought i addressed possible answers to that...
    #33

    #33
     
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    But, are what we may want to call "miracles" just facts that just so happen to happen that we can't explain because we don't know enough? I'm not saying there can't be miracles, but neither am I convinced that they are somehow supernatural versus just natural. For me, the "bottom line" is that I just don't know.

    OTOH, the repeated "premonitions" I kept on having over a period of two years definitely tells me that there is "Something" there that I can't explain through science.

    To put it another way, the more I know the more I know I really don't know.:emojconfused:

    "Science" is nothing more than objective study so as to try and determine what the Truth may be. Thus, it's always an on-going thingy, and through the "scientific method" it tries to eliminate bias and superstition. Faith also tries to arrive at the Truth, albeit from a different "angle". Thus science simply is no threat to our religious faith-- or at least it shouldn't be.

    Amen to dat!

    BTW, do you plant a garden? I just can't wait to get at it, and I already have been harvesting chives. I broke a tooth on one that was frozen-- we're back into winter here in Michigan.
     
  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Also, Hillel the Elder, who lived just before Jesus' time, used the "passive" one, and Jesus actually used both ("Do no harm..."). I try to tell my wife to be the latter with me but to no avail. :(

    I gotta go outside and trim my dogwood and viburnums today, so if I don't catch up to ya later may you and yours have a Most Blessed Lord's Day, my friend.
     
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  10. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Agreed that there is so much that people call "miracles" are just facts or something we just don't know enough about.

    But, as I view it, there still remains those things that are just miraculous. No science can or ever will be able to explain it. Premonitions is just the surface of what God can and wants to do. IMV.

    Like my friend who had two unsuccessful bridges placed on her spine due to a skiing accident and the last diagnosis from John Hopkins hospital was "don't life anything over 5lbs, don't have babies, you will be in pain forever.

    And then, she goes back to John Hopkins Hospital and the spine is restored. Two babies later and the lifting of the babies and no she is a grandmother.

    John Hopkins Hospital diagnosis... " a miracle is the only explanation we have".

    True that science eliminates bias and superstition But will science will ever delve into the supernatural? And can it really arrive at truth by omitting what I believe is an important ingredient?

    Certainly science doesn't pose a threat IMV. A scientist can still be anti-religion -- but science itself doesn't pose a threat. I actually enjoy science as it really helps my faith like the video on quantum-physics.

    But regardless, I still see faith as superseding science and the natural because it actually can change the natural

    Broke a TOOTH? On a chive? wow!

    9D5DB794-EA77-415B-9D5C-5C38BF44B5A6.JPG.jpeg


    Bottom right - a butterfly in mid-air landing for some honey!

    We have passion fruit, onions, mangoes, coconut, grapefruit, oranges, lemons and tangerines. Ready to plant avocado trees. :)
     
  11. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    send me a picture if they are flowering.

    And "thank you!" May you also have a God-filled day!
     
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  12. Left Coast

    Left Coast Still Gay
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    I haven't presented any dogmatic positions here, Ken. Most of my posts have been questions.

    I would be careful about projecting tone over text.

    Thank you. I'm not seeing an answer there as to why people should be punished for having the wrong beliefs?
     
  13. Left Coast

    Left Coast Still Gay
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    Beliefs lead to actions, you mean? That's true in general, but it's not deterministically so. If there's one lesson we've learned in the last 500 years, it's that punishing each other for religious thought crimes has been a terrible failed experiment. Life is better for us all when we embrace pluralism and religious freedom.
     
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  14. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Then my apologies.

    Ok... let me say it differently

    God’s Judgment
    Rom 2:14 For example, whenever people who don’t possess the law as their birthright commit sin, it still confirms that a “law” is present in their conscience. For when they instinctively do what the law requires, that becomes a “law” to govern them, even though they don’t have Mosaic law. 15 It demonstrates that the requirements of the law are woven into their hearts. They know what is right and wrong, for their conscience validates this “law” in their heart. Their thoughts correct them in one instance and commend them in another. 16 So this judgment will be revealed on the day when God, through Jesus the Messiah, judges the hidden secrets of people’s hearts. And their response to the gospel I preach will be the standard of judgment used in that day.

    Here, one could say their beliefs and understanding are not correct but God looks at their hearts within the context of the grace of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the conscience that they knew instinctively.

    3 John 1:11 King James Version Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

    Again, it didn't say "I have all the beliefs correct" but simply he that does good is of God.

    I noted that in the OT, they didn't know who Jesus was, but Jesus went to preach to them who did good.

    I also know of some historical people who actually got saved as they were traveling to a place separated from God and there, at that decent, called on Jesus in which, at that moment, they were brought back to life. His beliefs weren't correct when he died, but got corrected after he died. So, is there more to opportunities that God provides in as much as His mercy is greater than the judgment of what people have done wrong?

    Certainly anyone who knows Jesus on this earth knows that His mercy was greater than what they did wrong even in their wrong beliefs.

    Even in scriptures there people who believed wrong and did wrong but it didn't translate into eternal separation from the God of Life.

    However, within the scope of beliefs (In my personal understanding) we still have the sovereignty over our lives and if we simply do not want God in our lives, He won't force us to be with Him even as we can't force someone to love us.
     
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  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    And I agree that is very much possible, maybe even probable based on just my experience as well. I wish we had a chance to talk-face-to-face since that two year "experience" I had is Something else, let me tell ya. I never thought something like that could ever happen to me-- not in a million years!

    There has been some experiments along this line, including one on prayer that came up with nothing. But the irony is that if one knows others are praying for them this actually can help. This doesn't surprise me as I have long believed that prayer is more for us than the Boss.

    Even though my area of specialization is in anthropology, most of my science reading over the last decade has been in the areas of Big Bang cosmology and quantum physics. Again, I wish we could have had the opportunity to meet and discuss this, but that simply ain't in the cards.:(

    And I see it the other way around in terms of reliability of evidence. As far as effect on our establishment of basic morality though, I agree with you. I even told my anthropology students that as well, saying that if they had trouble accepting the ToE for relgious reasons that I would recommend they go with the latter because it would likely have a more positive effect on their lives. Ironically, only one student if my 30 years of teaching it, filling out a confidential questionnaire at the end of the course, said (s)he couldn't accept it. So, either I'm the world's best salesman or the overwhelming evidence speaks for itself.


    Beautiful, but for some reason here in Michigan those don't do well. :(

    Our yard here I call "Mediterranean Zen", and I am the one who does most of the gardening. It's a cross between Japanese and English gardening (more natural appearance, but trimmed), matched with drought tolerant plants, shrubs, and trees. We were gone all summer for 18 years and have no sprinkling system, and yet we never lost a single perennial, shrub, or tree because of drought.

    BTW, can you tell me which state you're in? Even though I'm married to a Sicilian, I promise not to send a hit-man your way-- as long as you don't disagree with me.:cool:
     
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  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Do icicles count?

    We're a long waaaaaaaaaaay from that up here. Only my bulb stuff (squills, hyacinths, and crocuses have bloomed thus far), and they're near the end of their bloom time.

    But if I need fertilizer for my plants, I'll show them your posts. :D
     
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  17. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    LOL May great grandmother was from Sicily--and was sent to the US alone at the age of 11.

    Two of her 11 children were part of the mafia!

    So, let's not start a war between families! :D

    Incidentally... I'm in central Florida.
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I never did like that experiment. The parameters were too flimsy to amount to anything.

    I think the definition of "prayer" is also flimsy. There are so many types of prayers but I never forget that Jesus promoted prayer so it must be important1 :)

    I have a dear friend.. Jewish by the last name "Cohen". Met him face to face in Ft Worth, Texas after developing a friendship on a forum.. Beautiful couple!

    BUT.... in today's electronic capacity... all things are possible :)

    I am always fascinated with the odds and ends of science. Would love to hear about Cosmology!

    I understand the "reliability of evidence" but not at the expense of Luke 24:25 :D Come and be part of the "miracle" force :D :D

    It must be beautiful.. I have two son-in-laws from England... and what BEAUTIFUL gardens they have!
     
  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    That is why I said 'at times'.
    No compromise is possible in Abrahamic religions. You can either be one of the flock or an unbeliever to be punished by God or Allah till all eternity.
     
  20. Left Coast

    Left Coast Still Gay
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    That's simply untrue, as evidenced by the many followers of Abrahamic traditions who are are universalists or who have a conception of the afterlife that doesn't require one to be a believer to obtain salvation.
     
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