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Featured God, Gods, & Societies Around the World

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by metis, Apr 16, 2020.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    @KenS and I were having a friendly discussion on this, but our viewpoints tend to be different on the OP title. His position is more along the line of the necessity for people to have a faith belief in Jesus for their salvation, whereas I have long had a problem with that. I'll state my main point, and KenS can state his reasoning. I hope others will chime in on this, but please keep the discussion civil, OK?

    It is a bridge too far for me to understand why one person (Jesus), in one small area of the world (eretz Israel), at just one short time period (roughly 2000 years ago) must supposedly be the only way for salvation for all as long as one believes he's the Savior? What about the early Inca, Aztecs, Inuit, Polynesians, Australian Aborigines, Maori, etc.? Doesn't God care about them? or is it "Gods", btw;)?

    My drift is that there must be something we're missing on this because it simply doesn't make sense to me why God would ignore most of the rest of the world's people, including those who came before Jesus' time. I do have an idea, however, but I'd rather have KenS say what he thinks about this before my going any further.

    So, KenS, the spotlight in now on you, so don't get knee-rattling stage-fright! :D
     
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  2. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Since it's been an hour and no @KenS ;) , when were you expecting him to arrive at the party?
     
  3. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think you're taking this way too literally.

    Christianity is essentially a theist-base ideology that claims that God's 'divine spirit' (love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity) exists within all of us as we are the creations of that divine spirit. And that if we will recognize that divine spirit within us, and allow it to guide us as we live our lives (rather than letting our own self-centered fears and desires guide us) we will be healed and saved from ourselves. And we will be able to help heal and save others.

    Thus, it is both a revelation, and a promise.

    A revelation and promise that did not occur to we humans (and 'stick' in our consciousness) until about 2,000 years ago, through the events and the subsequent stories of Jesus of Nazareth. Apparently, it took until then for humanity to become able, (or maybe willing) to comprehend the importance of this revelation and promise. And for some of us to become willing to put them to the test.

    I don't see it as an idea that God was "withholding" from us until then. I see it as an idea that was always there, waiting for us to become ready and willing to take it in.
     
    #3 PureX, Apr 16, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
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  4. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus retired astronomer

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    I know what you mean. I think first one needs to define what is meant by "the chosen people" but there are many views on this. For (the Jewish) Paul, the resurrection of Jesus was interpreted by what we call supersessionism (of course you know that). Others posit, and this makes some sense to me, that what was revealed through Jesus was not peculiar to that time and place but in fact that it occurred at different places at different times to different people (but was not recognized by most).

    :shrug:
     
  5. Left Coast

    Left Coast Still Gay
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    Even Paul seems to reject the notion that Gentiles who haven't heard the Gospel are going to be damned because of it, and suggests they can be saved by following their conscience:

    "All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all." Romans 2.12-16
     
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  6. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    LOL... after working at home, at the office and after I had a good night's rest! :D
     
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  7. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Easy solution: Gods don't exist. They're all manmade constructs, and every culture has a different manmade god.
     
  8. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I rated you "optimistic" if you think I can hold onto the spotlight :)

    WELL! THE NERVE that you said keep it civil and you turn around and say "YOU ARE WRONG" :D :D
    :facepalm:

    I think He does and, yes, one short time.. will expand further down


    Ok... let me lay the groundwork...

    I know nothing and the more I learn about God the more I realize that, I know nothing! :D

    So, since I know so much, let me tackle this subject and set everyone right so that we all can be experts at knowing nothing!

    First, tackling "for whom" and "time"

    1. time is only a measure within our framework based on our orbit. Time, in reality, is not a factor. EXAMPLES:
      1. Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations
      2. Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
      3. Notice that even the event of Jesus crucifixion was really just a physical manifestation of something that was done spiritually when the world was being created
    2. The reason I mention this, is because if Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world, then He DID have in mind all people (not just the Jewish nation) - because he was crucified before races even existed.
    3. This is where I am glad I am not God and admit I don't know everything. (unlike @metis who is so old that he has so much more knowledge than Methuselah) So, in that He was crucified from the beginning before time was measured in human terms, who did He have in mind? "For God so loved 'the world'" -- which means He had everyone in mind. The Hindu, The Aztec, The Muslim, The Aborigine, etc
    4. In as much as time began with the Lamb already crucified, that solves "how in a moment of time" can God redeem all... because it was all taken care of from the beginning. In other words, we inherited from Him the gift from generation to generation.
    There is much more on the table... but I'm concerned with too much info and trying to dissect everything in one swoop such as:
    "Then how does an Inca receive salvation if he has never heard of Jesus".
     
  9. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    That is a good scripture.

    Then we have this one:

    3 John 1:11
    Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
     
  10. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Personally, I think the position that God doesn't exist is that part that is a manmade construct.

    I guess it is perspective. ;)
     
  11. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Searching for time does not exist leaves me thinking that time is an illusion at least according to some current concepts.
     
  12. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    My skewed perspective is that every culture does indeed have a different and man-made concept of God. And perhaps every individual.

    That does not stop there from being That: Divinity beyond human invention and conception.

    One of my favorite ways that can be expressed is:

    I have a thousand brilliant lies
    For the question:

    How are you?

    I have a thousand brilliant lies
    For the question:

    What is God?

    If you think that the Truth can be known
    From words,

    If you think that the Sun and the Ocean

    Can pass through that tiny opening Called the mouth,

    O someone should start laughing!
    Someone should start wildly Laughing –Now!

    From “I Heard God Laughing: Renderings of Hafiz” by Daniel Ladinsky
     
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  13. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus retired astronomer

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    25And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and made trial of him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26And he said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.
     
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  14. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    In essence, if I understood you correctly, you are right. Einsteins theory of relativity basically says time is not relevant at the speed of light.

    We use time, in the human sense, but in God's presence time is an illusion. It is just life in light (no time)
     
  15. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I would agree on both accounts. The revelation of who God is, is just one revelation after another. Eternity cannot plumb the depths of who God is.

    At most, we have a superficial understanding that is still, superficial as it is, as deep as the mind can think. Even when we know Him, our knowledge is still skewed by the lack of knowledge about Him.

    And, as you said, it doesn't stop the reality of the Divinity.

    That is a great poem of thought.

    As Pilate asked, "What is truth?"; What and who is God?

    That being said, there is still, IMV, a beginning or a start in the journey of an intimate relationship with The Creator. Regardless, as i understand it, true knowledge - the true causation of knowing, starts with The Way, The Truth and The Life--Jesus.

    In an analogy, it is the sperm that begins with the life created as it enters the egg. Without it, we have the cursory knowledge that there are two beings - Sperm and Egg or God and man but the twain never meet. The Sperm (God) is constantly swimming trying to find the Egg (man). Once it finds the Egg the union has started, life begins, deeper understanding begins and it continues to grow and grow as the life in the blood courses through it.
     
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  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I don't know for sure, but I did tell him that I was starting this thread, and he agreed to get involved.

    However, this shouldn't stop you from posting your drift on this.



    Oops, I just noticed that he has arrived.
     
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Except for the first sentence of your response, I think you and I aren't very far apart at all. I'll be getting more specific later.

    Thanks.
     
  18. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I think we're pretty close on this, so I'll clarify this later after KenS responds and I get the chance to respond to him.

    Thanks.
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    There's a lot of things we don't know much about, thus I am far less certain that you are correct on this. IMO, it's important for us to know what we do know, but also to realize that which we cannot know and accept that it is that way at least for the time being at least.

    Thanks.
     
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  20. Left Coast

    Left Coast Still Gay
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    We can have a philosophical argument about the nature of time till the cows come home. That really doesn't change the bottom line that billions of people have lived and died without ever even having heard of Jesus. The issue is whether a God who is supposedly just and loving would condemn a person to hell for eternity for not believing in something they never knew anything about.
     
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