God created evil

[millennium3000]

Since all of Jehovah’s creations are perfect, however, who made this “Devil,” this “Satan”? Put simply, one of the powerful spirit sons of God turned himself into the Devil. How was this possible? Well, today a person who was once decent and honest may become a thief. How does that happen? The person may allow a wrong desire to develop in his heart. If he keeps thinking about it, that wrong desire may become very strong. Then if the opportunity presents itself, he may act upon the bad desire that he has been thinking about.—James 1:13-15.

6 This happened in the case of Satan the Devil. He apparently heard God tell Adam and Eve to have children and to fill the earth with their offspring. (Genesis 1:27, 28) ‘Why, all these humans could worship me rather than God!’ Satan evidently thought. So a wrong desire built up in his heart. Eventually, he took action to deceive Eve by telling her lies about God. (Genesis 3:1-5) He thus became a “Devil,” which means “Slanderer.” At the same time, he became “Satan,” which means “Opposer.”

7 By using lies and trickery, Satan the Devil caused Adam and Eve to disobey God. (Genesis 2:17; 3:6) As a result, they eventually died, as God had said they would if they disobeyed. (Genesis 3:17-19) Since Adam became imperfect when he sinned, all his offspring inherited sin from him. (Romans 5:12) The situation might be illustrated with a pan used for baking bread. If the pan has a dent in it, what happens to each loaf of bread made in the pan? Each loaf has a dent, or an imperfection, in it. Similarly, each human has inherited a “dent” of imperfection from Adam. That is why all humans grow old and die.—Romans 3:23.

8 When Satan led Adam and Eve into sinning against God, he was really leading a rebellion. He was challenging Jehovah’s way of ruling. In effect, Satan was saying: ‘God is a bad ruler. He tells lies and holds back good things from his subjects. Humans do not need to have God ruling over them. They can decide for themselves what is good and what is bad. And they will be better off under my rulership.’ How would God handle such an insulting challenge? Some think that God should simply have put the rebels to death. But would that have answered Satan’s challenge? Would it have proved that God’s way of ruling is right?

9 Jehovah’s perfect sense of justice would not allow him to put the rebels to death right away. He decided that time was needed to answer Satan’s challenge in a satisfying way and to prove that the Devil is a liar. So God determined that he would permit humans to rule themselves for some time under Satan’s influence. Why Jehovah did that and why he has allowed so much time to pass before settling these issues will be discussed in Chapter 11 of this book. Now, though, it is good to think about this: Were Adam and Eve right to believe Satan, who had never done anything good for them? Was it right for them to believe that Jehovah, who had given them everything they had, is a cruel liar? What would you have done?

10 It is good to think about these questions because each of us faces similar issues today. Yes, you have the opportunity to support Jehovah’s side in answer to Satan’s challenge. You can accept Jehovah as your Ruler and help to show that Satan is a liar. (Psalm 73:28; Proverbs 27:11) Sadly, only a few among the billions of people in this world make such a choice. This raises an important question, Does the Bible really teach that Satan rules this world?

 

[Skwim]

Punishment, whether for a minute or an eternity, is beneath God.

Consider then . . .
In Exodus 32, God says (v. 34), “When the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.” And in Jeremiah 21: 14, God says, “I will punish you as your deeds deserve.”

Obviously, punishment is not beneath god at all.

 

[Prophet]

Consider then . . .
In Exodus 32, God says (v. 34), “When the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.” And in Jeremiah 21: 14, God says, “I will punish you as your deeds deserve.”

Obviously, punishment is not beneath god at all.

Was Exodus written by God, in your opinion? Or is it at all possible that some religious authority figure could have falsely attributed these words to God?

 

[Skwim]

Was Exodus written by God, in your opinion? Or is it at all possible that some religious authority figure could have falsely attributed these words to God?

I have no doubt that a god did not write it, but people have had delusions that god spoke to them, so I'm not ready to call it a fabrication. In any case, my opinion as to the author is immaterial when it comes to claims of meaning, which is the issue here. So, even if everyone agreed that the author of the statements is fictitious, the veracity of any claims regarding this author must still be judged in light of what he supposedly said. Fictional characters are still required to maintain a certain amount of internal integrity, that is, at the very least they cannot be contradictory in word or deed and still be logical.

 

[Prophet]

I have no doubt that a god did not write it, but people have had delusions that god spoke to them, so I'm not ready to call it a fabrication. In any case, my opinion as to the author is immaterial when it comes to claims of meaning, which is the issue here. So, even if everyone agreed that the author of the statements is fictitious, the veracity of any claims regarding this author must still be judged in light of what he supposedly said. Fictional characters are still required to maintain a certain amount of internal integrity, that is, at the very least they cannot be contradictory in word or deed and still be logical.

Your certainty that God did not write the passage which you've presented is based upon "strong" atheism. You seem to express belief God could not have written or inspired the passage in question because God is a fictional character.

Calling yourselves agnostics is, in my opinion, the great equivocation game you atheists play when you find themselves cornered by clever theists who correctly identify that a positive belief in no god is fundamentalist in nature as it is a belief that CANNOT be evidenced. You call yourself an agnostic, but allowing yourself to extrapolate further belefs from your belief in no god (i.e. assuming any words attributed to him MUST be B.S. as you assume he is a fictitional character) lets the cat out of the bag.

It is highly ironic that you call God "contradictory".

 

[Skwim]

Your certainty that God did not write the passage which you've presented is based upon "strong" atheism.

GOOD GRIEF!

You seem to express belief God could not have written or inspired the passage in question because God is a fictional character.

Please reread what I said           or not.

Calling yourselves agnostics is, in my opinion, the great equivocation game you atheists play when you find themselves cornered by clever theists who correctly identify that a positive belief in no god is fundamentalist in nature as it is a belief that CANNOT be evidenced.

Your opinion is noted. :sleep:

You call yourself an agnostic, but allowing yourself to extrapolate further belefs from your belief in no god (i.e. assuming any words attributed to him MUST be B.S. as you assume he is a fictitional character) lets the cat out of the bag.

The cat's no longer in the bag? Didn't even know there was a bag much less one that had a cat in it.

It is highly ironic that you call God "contradictory".

Okey dokey, but in the meantime I'll take all this irrelevant side issue stuff as an admission that punishment is not beneath God.

 

[Prophet]

My patience for hypocrisy has been lacking of late. My apologies for going off topic. Please take my lack of patience to indicate whatever you wish.

 

[rusra02]

Punishment, whether for a minute or an eternity, is beneath God.

That statement flies in the face of all that the Holy Scriptures say about God.
Surely you know the Bible states that God punished wicked people in the past, including Sodom and Gommorah. And I believe the Bible clearly teaches God will punish the wicked today:
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 clearly states: "it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

God's love and patience shown toward both the wicked and good people does not mean he will forever tolerate badness and oppression of the weak. To do so would be both unjust and unloving, and God is neither, in my opinion.

 

[Straw Dog]

God's love and patience shown toward both the wicked and good people does not mean he will forever tolerate badness and oppression of the weak. To do so would be both unjust and unloving, and God is neither, in my opinion.
[/FONT]

Yeah, we're all entitled to our opinions, but God remains silent. We'd like to believe we're speaking on behalf of 'God', but it's always on behalf of a collection of words written by man. I could listen to the words of man or I could listen to the sacred silence emanating from the space between spaces. It cannot be properly articulated into words. The word that can be written is not the eternal Word.

 

[rusra02]

Yeah, we're all entitled to our opinions, but God remains silent. We'd like to believe we're speaking on behalf of 'God', but it's always on behalf of a collection of words written by man. I could listen to the words of man or I could listen to the sacred silence emanating from the space between spaces. It cannot be properly articulated into words. The word that can be written is not the eternal Word.

As you say, we're all entitled to our opinions. Obviously, the God that created the world and mankind could also communicate through a book, if he chose to. A book available to virtually all mankind, translated into more languages by far than any other book, with a circulation unmatched by any other publication, that can be examined and studied and verified. I wonder how many people who dismiss the Bible as a product of mere man, have read the book cover to cover.

 

[Straw Dog]

As you say, we're all entitled to our opinions. Obviously, the God that created the world and mankind could also communicate through a book, if he chose to. A book available to virtually all mankind, translated into more languages by far than any other book, with a circulation unmatched by any other publication, that can be examined and studied and verified. I wonder how many people who dismiss the Bible as a product of mere man, have read the book cover to cover.

Probably a fair amount actually. Who wrote the book?

 

[rusra02]

Probably a fair amount actually. Who wrote the book?

Who is the Bible's author? While some 40 men wrote 66 separate parts or books of the Bible, 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 states: "All Scripture is inspired of God". 2 Peter 1:21 says: "For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit."
So, while human secretaries were used by God to write most of the Bible, it was God who is the Bible's Author. (God wrote the ten Words personally. (Exodus 31:18))
Millions of people have changed their lives for the better due to God's Word, which Word bears the stamp of God's loving personality. Further, the Bible accurately foretells the future, something no book authored by men can do. (Isaiah 46:9,10) All this and more convinces me that the Bible is, indeed, the word of God.

 

[Skwim]

Who is the Bible's author? While some 40 men wrote 66 separate parts or books of the Bible, 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 states: "All Scripture is inspired of God". 2 Peter 1:21 says: "For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit."
So, while human secretaries were used by God to write most of the Bible, it was God who is the Bible's Author. (God wrote the ten Words personally. (Exodus 31:18))
Millions of people have changed their lives for the better due to God's Word, which Word bears the stamp of God's loving personality. Further, the Bible accurately foretells the future, something no book authored by men can do. (Isaiah 46:9,10) All this and more convinces me that the Bible is, indeed, the word of God.

A book so poorly written that it beggars a single translation, and instead has spawned not only thousands of splinter groups (denominations), some with outright animosity toward each other, but hatred, violence, and has even sanctioned death. And this is the best an omnipotent and loving god could do. Truth is, I know of human beings who could have done a better job, Mahatma Gandhi being one of them.

 

[skywrath32]

According to the Bible (Isaiah 45:7) God creates evil. Why do so many people, especially evangelical types, find this so hard to understand and accept?

God is an illogical being. He can do anything he want.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God is an illogical being. He can do anything he want.

Illogical, or just not understanding that the biblical word for 'evil' is Not necessarily synonymous with wrong doing ?

In Scripture evil can be used in the form of calamity upon the wicked.
At Noah's day the Flood was a calamity evil against the wicked.
At the year 70 CE the Roman armies were a calamity evil against apostate Jerusalem.

Before such a calamity or evil strikes God always forewarns everyone.
- Ezekiel 3 vs 18-21

The righteous or upright will come through alive at the time of the coming 'great tribulation' on earth before Jesus ushers in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.- Rev. 7 v 14

 

[jaareshiah]

A book so poorly written that it beggars a single translation, and instead has spawned not only thousands of splinter groups (denominations), some with outright animosity toward each other, but hatred, violence, and has even sanctioned death. And this is the best an omnipotent and loving god could do. Truth is, I know of human beings who could have done a better job, Mahatma Gandhi being one of them.

Many who criticize the Bible has failed to examine it carefully. For example, under the Mosaic Law, individuals with leprosy were quarantined.(Num 12:15) Why ? To prevent the spread of the disease. Yet, how could it be known that it is spread by bacteria some 3,000 years before bacteria's discovery by Antoni van Leeuwenhoek in 1676 ? Only until Louis Pasteur's (1822-95) discoveries in the 19th century did science begin to understand the relationship between pathogens and disease.

How was Job able to note that the earth is "hanging.... upon nothing", since about 1000 years later it was believed that the earth was supported by elephants standing on the back of a giant turtle ? How could it known, as seen at Isaiah 40, that says that the earth is "round" or a "circle" (Isa 40:22), since even down till the time of Christopher Columbus, it was thought that the earth was flat, some 2,200 years later ?

How was it known to bury human excrement under the Mosaic Law (Deut 23:13) in 1473 B.C.E., since at that time, the ancient Egyptians used excrement in their medicines ? The Egyptians remedies not only included beneficial herbs and plants but also prescribed such ingredients as the blood of mice, urine, or the excrement of flies, which, together with the spells, were “calculated to drive the possessing demon out of the man’s body in sheer disgust.” (History of Mankind, by J. Hawkes and Sir Leonard Woolley, 1963, Vol. I, p. 695)

Such lack of understanding may have contributed to some of the ‘fearsome diseases of Egypt,’ likely including elephantiasis, dysentery, smallpox, bubonic plague, ophthalmia, and other ailments; on the ther hand, Israel gained protection from them by faithful obedience. (Deut 7:15; Amos 4:10.)

The hygienic measures imposed on the Israelites following the Exodus from Egypt are in dramatic contrast to many of the practices described in Egyptian texts.(Lev 11:32-40) It is now recognized that the laws on hygiene helped keep such things as the water sources free from contamination and provided protection from many illnesses carried by insects. Hence, those who are quick to condemn the Bible have shown themselves as rashly passing judgment without proper examination of the Bible.

In addition, the prophecies in the Bible have been unerring in their coming to pass. For instance, at Daniel 8, in the year 550 B.C.E., Daniel was given a glimpse in to the future concerning two "kingdoms", in which a "ram" is struck down by a "hairy he-goat".(Dan 8:5-7) How could it be known that Medo-Persia would the world power that followed Babylon and that it would be struck down by Greece and that the "king of Greece" (Alexander the Great) would die or be "broken", with "four kingdoms" arising from his rulership some 200 years in advance ?(Dan 8:20-22)

All this happened as foretold in the Bible, for the dynasty of Medo-Persia overtook Babylon in 539 B.C.E., but it came to an end when Darius III was defeated by Alexander the Great in 331 B.C.E. and then on June 13, 323 B.C.E, at the age of 32, Alexander died from complications of malaria, so that within a few decades, his "kingdom" was divided among four of his generals into "four kingdoms".(Dan 8:22)

David wrote some 3000 years ago that "the wicked one according to his superciliousness makes no search; All his ideas are: “There is no God.”(Ps 10:4) Many are quick to find fault with the Bible, ' making no serious search'. The Hebrew word for "superciliousness" is gobahh 'aph, literally meaning "according to the height of his nose." Many never look past their noses at the evidence that shows the accuracy of the Bible, that it is a book divinely inspired by our Creator, Jehovah God.

 

[Skwim]

Many who criticize the Bible has failed to examine it carefully. For example, under the Mosaic Law, individuals with leprosy were quarantined.(Num 12:15) Why ? To prevent the spread of the disease. Yet, how could it be known that it is spread by bacteria some 3,000 years before bacteria's discovery by Antoni van Leeuwenhoek in 1676 ? Only until Louis Pasteur's (1822-95) discoveries in the 19th century did science begin to understand the relationship between pathogens and disease.

How was Job able to note that the earth is "hanging.... upon nothing", since about 1000 years later it was believed that the earth was supported by elephants standing on the back of a giant turtle ? How could it known, as seen at Isaiah 40, that says that the earth is "round" or a "circle" (Isa 40:22), since even down till the time of Christopher Columbus, it was thought that the earth was flat, some 2,200 years later ?

How was it known to bury human excrement under the Mosaic Law (Deut 23:13) in 1473 B.C.E., since at that time, the ancient Egyptians used excrement in their medicines ? The Egyptians remedies not only included beneficial herbs and plants but also prescribed such ingredients as the blood of mice, urine, or the excrement of flies, which, together with the spells, were “calculated to drive the possessing demon out of the man’s body in sheer disgust.” (History of Mankind, by J. Hawkes and Sir Leonard Woolley, 1963, Vol. I, p. 695)

Such lack of understanding may have contributed to some of the ‘fearsome diseases of Egypt,’ likely including elephantiasis, dysentery, smallpox, bubonic plague, ophthalmia, and other ailments; on the ther hand, Israel gained protection from them by faithful obedience. (Deut 7:15; Amos 4:10.)

The hygienic measures imposed on the Israelites following the Exodus from Egypt are in dramatic contrast to many of the practices described in Egyptian texts.(Lev 11:32-40) It is now recognized that the laws on hygiene helped keep such things as the water sources free from contamination and provided protection from many illnesses carried by insects. Hence, those who are quick to condemn the Bible have shown themselves as rashly passing judgment without proper examination of the Bible.

In addition, the prophecies in the Bible have been unerring in their coming to pass. For instance, at Daniel 8, in the year 550 B.C.E., Daniel was given a glimpse in to the future concerning two "kingdoms", in which a "ram" is struck down by a "hairy he-goat".(Dan 8:5-7) How could it be known that Medo-Persia would the world power that followed Babylon and that it would be struck down by Greece and that the "king of Greece" (Alexander the Great) would die or be "broken", with "four kingdoms" arising from his rulership some 200 years in advance ?(Dan 8:20-22)

All this happened as foretold in the Bible, for the dynasty of Medo-Persia overtook Babylon in 539 B.C.E., but it came to an end when Darius III was defeated by Alexander the Great in 331 B.C.E. and then on June 13, 323 B.C.E, at the age of 32, Alexander died from complications of malaria, so that within a few decades, his "kingdom" was divided among four of his generals into "four kingdoms".(Dan 8:22)

David wrote some 3000 years ago that "the wicked one according to his superciliousness makes no search; All his ideas are: “There is no God.”(Ps 10:4) Many are quick to find fault with the Bible, ' making no serious search'. The Hebrew word for "superciliousness" is gobahh 'aph, literally meaning "according to the height of his nose."

So What ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Did you even read what I wrote?

Many never look past their noses at the evidence that shows the accuracy of the Bible, that it is a book divinely inspired by our Creator, Jehovah God.

And many are so blinded by their need to believe that they fail to see what Bible actually says. But be content win your faith, just don't try to convince others that cherry picking is the way to establish a point.

 

[BSM1]

God is an illogical being. He can do anything he want.

Although I agree with you, I think the word alogical would more describe The Deity.

 

[jaareshiah]

So What ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Did you even read what I wrote?


And many are so blinded by their need to believe that they fail to see what Bible actually says. But be content win your faith, just don't try to convince others that cherry picking is the way to establish a point.

Yes, I read what you wrote, that the Bible is "a book so poorly written that it beggars a single translation". Hence, there was provided a few details that gave a sound basis for accepting what the Bible says and not what the "thousands of splinter groups" who have hatred for others have said, but who have distorted what the Bible really teaches.

These, who promote or sanction warfare, do not have the backing of "an omnipotent and loving god", but of those who profess Christianity, there is only one who has God's backing, for Jesus said that "by their fruits you will recognize them."(Matt 7:16) Only one religion, among the over 41,000 different religions and sects that profess to be Christian, "produces fine fruit". All the others "produces worthless fruit."(Matt 7:17)

Just as only one key (among different keys) will unlock a door. The key has to be an exact match for the door's tumblers. Otherwise, the door remains locked. And just as a password has to be an exact match in order to get into a person's account, so likewise of the Bible. It has only one rightful interpretation, which the churches of Christendom have twisted so that finding anything truthful about God in them is almost non-existent.

Jesus further said: "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you ! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness."(Matt 7:21-23)

Thus, you have a valid argument against the "thousands of splinter groups" who profess Christ as their leader, but disown him by their "fruits", for the apostle Paul wrote of such ones: "They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort."(Titus 1:16)

Jesus is on your side when it comes to understanding that the churches of Christendom have fostered hatred for others. For example, he said concerning the Pharisees: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness."(Matt 23:23)

Hence, please do not blame the Bible because of their "worthless fruit", but allow the Bible to speak in its own defense. Over the course of almost 1700 years of Christendom's existence, the truth of the Bible has been altered, distorted, twisted to fit their ideology, promoting sectarianism and hate (and that is why there are so many different religious sects and denominations).

In our time period, the one true religion has been restored, for Isaiah 2 says that "it must occur in the final part of the days (our time period) that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."(Isa 2:2-4)

The true religion has beaten "their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears", learning war or hatred no more. These are allowing themselves to be taught by Jehovah God to learn the ways of peace. Many who were once full of hate for other ethnic groups, nationalities or religions have discarded this hate and replaced it with genuine love.(John 13:34, 35)

Those, on the other hand, who have hatred for righteous standards (as found in the Bible), Jehovah God is going to "create evil" for (Isa 45:7), permanently removing them from the earth.(Prov 2:21, 22) Then "meek" ones can enjoy life forever as God originally intended, fully satisfying, whereby genuine love will exist throughout the earth, for Isaiah 11 says that even the animals "will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea."(Isa 11:9)

 

[Skwim]

Yes, I read what you wrote, that the Bible is "a book so poorly written that it beggars a single translation". Hence, there was provided a few details that gave a sound basis for accepting what the Bible says and not what the "thousands of splinter groups" who have hatred for others have said, but who have distorted what the Bible really teaches.

Clue here; just because a book provides some facts and occasional good advice doesn't exempt it from all its faults.

Has the Bible not spawned thousands of splinter groups, some with outright animosity toward each other? YES. and without any doubt.

Has the Bible not spawned hatred. YES, Just think of poor Northern Ireland.

Has the Bible not spawned violence. YES, Just think of poor Northern Ireland.

Has the Bible not sanctioned death. Yes, Some of the reasons:

Murder
Adultery
Bestiality
Rape
Sodomy
One man picked up sticks on the Sabbath, he was taken into custody because a punishment was not known.
  The lord told Moses that the man in custody must be killed.
A betrothed woman who does not cry out while being raped
A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding
Worshiping other gods
Witchcraft
Taking the lords name in vain or cursing his name
Cursing a parent
Kidnapping

​

Hence, please do not blame the Bible because of their "worthless fruit", but allow the Bible to speak in its own defense. Over the course of almost 1700 years of Christendom's existence, the truth of the Bible has been altered, distorted, twisted to fit their ideology, promoting sectarianism and hate (and that is why there are so many different religious sects and denominations).

Yup;

And when you say all these people, those of the thousands of denominations, "have distorted what the Bible really teaches," am I to assume that you, jaareshiah, have a lock on the what the Bible "really teaches"? If so, I'm afraid you'll have to get in the back of the line. A very looong line.

The Bible only speaks through its interpreters, so to speak in its own defense it's message is necessarily filtered through the agendas of these people. So, where do you propose a person go to find the "truth" of the book? I assume, your own church.