God and Evolution

[Audie]

Yes, but I challenge your statement that evangelicals are per capita less educated. It may be true, but I have not seen a study on it.

I would draw your attention to members of the Seventh Day Adventist denomination. They are young earth creationists, yet I have no doubt that their education per capita is much higher than most demographic groups.

I did not just make it up.
You may want to do your own study on it, I have.

Pew perhaps...demographics of fundamentalist /
evangelical. That sorta search.

It is good if adventists are not like JW, shunning
education.

YEC though-it really is not possible to be informed in
the sciences AND a yec, whilst maintaining intellectual
integrity.

That is a diff topic tho.

 

[shmogie]

I did not just make it up.
You may want to do your own study on it, I have.

Pew perhaps...demographics of fundamentalist /
evangelical. That sorta search.

It is good if adventists are not like JW, shunning
education.

YEC though-it really is not possible to be informed in
the sciences AND a yec, whilst maintaining intellectual
integrity.

That is a diff topic tho.

Actually, it is.

 

[shmogie]

Homo sapiens - but I take it you would prefer non-primate species...OK best not go there I suppose...!!

You make my point.

 

[shmogie]

Of course, it is not a species of monkey(?) but a common ancestor.

How many complete skeletons exist of all the alleged precursor species of humans previous to homo sapiens ?

 

[Audie]

Actually, it is.

It is hard to cut paste web address with this lil tablrt but
I tried "pew, evangelical, education". It gives
numbers There are others.

I actually like being wrong now that I dont take exams anymore.
It is very educational.

I can explain why it cannot be done, so for counterpoint, if you
can say why it can, I would like to hear it.

 

[Audie]

How many complete skeletons exist of all the alleged precursor species of humans previous to homo sapiens ?

Not a reasonable requirement.
There is no complete accurate record of WW2
still less the Roman Empire.
Or the dogs from wolf to peekapoo.

 

[shunyadragon]

How many complete skeletons exist of all the alleged precursor species of humans previous to homo sapiens ?

a number of partial skeletons and near complete like 'Lucy.' There are enough fossils to identify many species dating human evolution in terms of millions of years. Including foot prints and primitive tools and ornaments. There are more fossils being found all the time.

For a partial list see:List of human evolution fossils - Wikipedia

 

[siti]

So.... You don't believe in God?

Who said that? I am saying God is a human invention...it would be silly to say I don;t believe in it - I might as well say I don't believe in money, or banks or houses or Sherman tanks (no idea why that sprang to mind) - I believe in the existence of all of these as human inventions - likewise "God" - i.e. that "God" - the one that people deny evolution in the name of...which is even sillier than me saying I don't believe in God - people say they believe in God and deny the process by which God came to exist.

 

[We Never Know]

It is hard to cut paste web address with this lil tablrt but
I tried "pew, evangelical, education". It gives
numbers There are others.

I actually like being wrong now that I dont take exams anymore.
It is very educational.

I can explain why it cannot be done, so for counterpoint, if you
can say why it can, I would like to hear it.

Maybe this will help

Educational attainment of U.S. religious groups

 

[shmogie]

Not a reasonable requirement.
There is no complete accurate record of WW2
still less the Roman Empire.
Or the dogs from wolf to peekapoo.

You think not ? A species requires a sustainable population, enough to see it exists generation after generation.

A few partial skeletons, represents a few partial skeletons, of something. Do they represent a generational sustainable species or, a few genetically damaged representatives of something else ? How do you know ?

 

[Wasp]

Who said that? I am saying God is a human invention...it would be silly to say I don;t believe in it - I might as well say I don't believe in money, or banks or houses or Sherman tanks (no idea why that sprang to mind) - I believe in the existence of all of these as human inventions - likewise "God" - i.e. that "God" - the one that people deny evolution in the name of...which is even sillier than me saying I don't believe in God - people say they believe in God and deny the process by which God came to exist.

If you "believe in God" in the same sense you believe in banks then religiously speaking, as well as with common sense, you don't believe in God. I don't know why you want to twist it into something so obscure.

 

[Salvador]

( Koran 4:1 ) "O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer."

The Koran teaches all of mankind is descended from one primordial couple, which is demonstrably false.

Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size that consisted of much less than 10,000 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that likely consisted of no fewer than 10,000 individuals. Source: ( Li, Heng, and Durbin, Richard. ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences". Nature International Weekly Journal of Science. 28 July 2001. PSMC estimate on simulated data. : Inference of human population history from individual whole-genome sequences : Nature : Nature Publishing Group

If there were the most severe population bottlenecking such as one breeding pair that is portrayed in the case of Quranic Adam and Eve, then there would be a maximum of 4 alleles passed on by Adam and Eve to their children. Furthermore, the subsequent inbreeding would cause some loss of alleles due to genetic drifting. There would not have been genetic diversity in the small group of Adam, Eve and their children who would've had to commit incest among each other for the procreation of their inbred children. A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than two people during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.

DNA segments ( Alu repeats ) insert themselves at various chromosomal locations. There are various forms of Alu sequences and several thousand families of Alu. One well-studied family of Alu is called Ya5, which has been inserted into human chromosomes at 57 mapped locations. If we were to have descended from a single pair of ancestors such as Adam and Eve, then we all would have each of the 57 elements inserted at the same location points of our chromosomes. " However, the human population consists of groups of people who share some insertion points but not others. The multiple shared categories make it clear that although a human population bottleneck occurred, it was definitely never as small as two. In fact, this line of evidence also indicates that there were at least several thousand people when the population was at its smallest". Source: ( Venema, Dennis and Falk, Darrel ) " Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple?". 5 April 2010. Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple? | The BioLogos Forum

Coalescence theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphisms and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is ca. 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of ca.10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years." Source: ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke,Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M.) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium". Genome Research. 17 April 2007 Recent human effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium

 

[shunyadragon]

You think not ? A species requires a sustainable population, enough to see it exists generation after generation.

A few partial skeletons, represents a few partial skeletons, of something. Do they represent a generational sustainable species or, a few genetically damaged representatives of something else ? How do you know ?

The hundreds of other associated animal fossils and primitive tools. No, these finds DO NOT represent genetically damaged individuals. A background in comparative anatomy and paleontology would help, which you lack entirely and I have, We have found fossils of related and pre-humans with injuries and diseases like arthritis, but no genetically deformed individuals.

Terrestrial fossil finds are rare in the first place, but the wide spread finds of associated primitive tools and fossils of hunted animals with stone tool marks support the existence of large populations. Also the fossil finds of some species are rare, but found over a large area in rocks the same age.

The partial skeletons and near complete skeleton 'Lucy' are supported by many finds of individual and groups of fossil bones to support these species.

Note: the referenced list does not include recent finds.

 

[Audie]

You think not ? A species requires a sustainable population, enough to see it exists generation after generation.

A few partial skeletons, represents a few partial skeletons, of something. Do they represent a generational sustainable species or, a few genetically damaged representatives of something else ? How do you know ?

Try this. Many species of extinct organisms are known
from a single, usually incomplete specimen.

What reasons can you think of for this to be the case?

 

[siti]

You make my point.

No I made mine - which you obviously missed. Homo sapiens is a species of primate...humans have not evolved from primates - we have evolved as primates.

 

[shunyadragon]

No I made mine - which you obviously missed. Homo sapiens is a species of primate...humans have not evolved from primates - we have evolved as primates.

. . . both are true.

 

[siti]

If you "believe in God" in the same sense you believe in banks then religiously speaking, as well as with common sense, you don't believe in God. I don't know why you want to twist it into something so obscure.

It is not obscure - humans create gods - simple, clear, and fairly obvious - not at all obscure. But does that mean that they don't really exist? In what sense does a bank or a corporation really exist? These are also human inventions and it is no use denying their existence.

 

[siti]

Try this. Many species of extinct organisms are known
from a single, usually incomplete specimen.

What reasons can you think of for this to be the case?

Ah! Wait...I know this one...yes that's it - the devil planted these fake specimens three weeks last Tuesday just to deceive people...yes?

 

[Audie]

Ah! Wait...I know this one...yes that's it - the devil planted these fake specimens three weeks last Tuesday just to deceive people...yes?

Now be nice, shmog isn't one of those people.

Did you ever read Lucretius? Interesting ideas from
ancient Rome, on fossils.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Almost certainly?

After you've mastered the arabic language and studied the Qur'an from 5 to 25 years (whenever you feel ready), you'd better go tell the scholars.

Nope, that is not the way it works. You need to prove your case. I have seen Muslims try this time after time and it is always a shaky reinterpretation. Think of it, it was the Koran that changed the culture from one of innovation to stagnation. Arabic culture used to be at the forefront of discoveries. It was when they began to take their holy books to seriously that they began to fall back.