Getting permanent results?

[agorman]

Tell me if I'm misunderstanding you: you have tried various religious approaches to achieve good health, but nothing works long term; your bad health inevitably returns.

That's it, basically, yes, but it's not only about my health.

First, let me say that I'm so very sorry you have chronic health problems. I know what it is like to have serious problems that don't go away, how draining it is, how frustrating, etc.

Thank you.

There is no magic in religion. Prayer is a request -- sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes the answer is no. When the answer is no, the best response is to pray for the strength and patience to deal with the problem in one's life.

"no magic"? You're Jewish, what do you think about Qabalah?

One doesn't become religious in order to "get" things. God is not Santa Claus. One becomes religious in order to become a better person despite the problems in one's life. My suggestion to you is to look for a religion that will help you be the best person you can be in spite of your health problems.

Unfortunately in this society very few people care if you're a better person or not. They won't give you the job anyway.

I'll answer you the rest with a translation of one of the dreams of my diary; in part because of it I'm currently exploring Taoism:

I was on a black sand beach, before a dark and calm ocean of soft waves, which symbolized the Tao, the Source of the Universe, the Supreme God, etc. Lao Tse told me "Imagine if God could give you everything you want, everything you ask for, without conditions." I replied "Ask and it will be given to you, said Jesus." "Exactly," said Lao. And he told me to lift some of the water from that ocean; which I did with a cup and pour that water into another cup. As the water poured, the liquid was transformed into gold coins. I was surprised and I was going to ask him for other gods that ask for offerings, but he said "Nooo [laughs], those gods who need things are minor; the Tao already has everything, already IS Everything. And the closer you get to Him, the more you'll discover your own potential; that of your true self, because the Source is a reflection of YOUR source." I told him that if you give a lot to someone who does not value himself, it could be dangerous. That there are already many bad people who are full of everything. He told me "That's exactly the reason why there are people who act badly, it's because they don't know what I taught you today and that I tried several times to teach you before." And it is so hard to believe! That God will give you everything you ask for; that He is like a "wishing well", regardless of whether you deserve it or not. But as Lao Tse said: "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

How did you conclude it was a who instead of a what?

I understand; you're impersonalist, but exactly Krishna was the one who got me out of impersonalism.

Or maybe your brain created Krishna as a metaphor for your healing.

What's wrong with the idea that Krishna is a real being?

Only as a fully trained Jedi will you be strong enough to face the emperor

Yeah maybe I just have to be patient and maintain myself in the same path no matter the results I get.

You need to follow the sequence outlined in the video in order to make it permanent.

I'll watch it all tonight, thanks.

For physical health problems that will not go away then smoke a lot marijuana and try not to blame God.

LOL I've never done any drugs, since I always thought common spiritual methods like drums, mantras and others were enough. But now I'm beginning to doubt it.

So I don't blame God but the methods. Something is wrong in them; they don't have a permanent effect, at least in myself.

 

[Left Coast]

I understand; you're impersonalist, but exactly Krishna was the one who got me out of impersonalism.

How so? How did you determine that Krishna did anything?

What's wrong with the idea that Krishna is a real being?

What's the evidence that he's a real being? Thus far all I've heard is that you had a vision of him. Is that it?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The naysayers in this thread can spout whatever rhetoric they will, but it has been my experience that the mind controls the body, and the body's wellness (or lack thereof) can be modified through intent.

That said, medical professionals should be consulted for any medical conditions.

Out of interest, how certain are you that the connection between mind and body is unilateral?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Out of interest, how certain are you that the connection between mind and body is unilateral?

I'm not sure I understand the question. My inclination is to say that the mind and body's connection is unilateral though the central nervous system, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for, and I don't want to come across as a smart-arse.

 

[Left Coast]

I'm not sure I understand the question. My inclination is to say that the mind and body's connection is unilateral though the central nervous system, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for, and I don't want to come across as a smart-arse.

I think the intent of the question is to say that it is not just mental states that affect the body. The physical body also affects mental states. In fact, we have zero evidence of any mental state occurring apart from a physiological state, ever.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I think the intent of the question is to say that it is not just mental states that affect the body. The physical body also affects mental states. In fact, we have zero evidence of any mental state occurring apart from a physiological state, ever.

I don’t believe I made any insinuation that either was exclusive of the other.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm not sure I understand the question. My inclination is to say that the mind and body's connection is unilateral though the central nervous system, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for, and I don't want to come across as a smart-arse.

It just sounded like you thought the mind controls the body, whereas I think the two impact on each other.
Whilst the mind can impact on the bodies wellness, I think the inverse is also true.

 

[SalixIncendium]

It just sounded like you thought the mind controls the body, whereas I think the two impact on each other.
Whilst the mind can impact on the bodies wellness, I think the inverse is also true.

I agree.

 

[PearlSeeker]

@agorman

Maybe the only thing permanent is change, learning, improving. Perfection is an endless path. Is this frustrating? I don't think so. It gives our life meaning.

But your problem is something else if I understood. You make improvements and then you loose it. Like the myth of Sisyphus. Right?

 

[Thief]

I don't know if this is the right forum for this post, so if moderators want to move it to another one, that's fine for me.

I've experimented with religions, magic and meditation for many years and I still couldn't find the solution for this problem; how do you get permanent results?

Let's say I meditate repeating "I am perfect health" 108 times per day, for a month. It has results, I feel better, some health problems get solved, everything fine and dandy.

The next month I meditate with "I am perfect supply" and it also works. But my health slowly goes back to normal.

So it doesn't matter the practice or the path, whether I perform rituals, recite mantras, do spells, say prayers, etc. I can't get permanent results. I can't achieve goal A then B, then C... Because as soon as I start working on B, A slowly gets back to 0%.

And I knew about other people who has the same problem. That's no way to progress in life, because as soon as I stop practicing what I did, everything gets back to the pathetic normality. I wonder if we have some basic mind programming acquired when we were children or adolescent, something that is too strong to overcome permanently.

The only answers I got from gods and buddhas in my long quest are "you have to practice long enough to make it permanent" (how long is long enough?), "channels must be unblocked" (nadis) or "if everything's got back to normal is because you didn't learn something" but I find those answers are not enough.

Despite I left Hinduism years ago, I can say I only got a few permanent results with Krishna, Hanuman and Ganesh. Krishna restored my sense of smell and gave me a small power of reading the personality of someone just by seeing him or her. And I'm never short of coins in my wallet. Small favors; maybe few favours for so much meditation time. Anyway, I'm grateful and thanks to Hanuman, drivers respect me as a pedestrian. Thanks to Ganesh I have a better voice than before and he got me out from an existential crisis. But I don't really want to go back to Hinduism.

no one ever said so to me...….but I noticed as I was reading about the miracles
performed by the Carpenter

a miracle unto the flesh is a temporary as the flesh that did receive it

maybe what you really want is a healing of mind and heart

 

[agorman]

How so? How did you determine that Krishna did anything? What's the evidence that he's a real being? Thus far all I've heard is that you had a vision of him. Is that it?

I can only tell you that if you'd be a Krishna devotee even for a few months, you would certainly notice that he's real. He would do exactly the things that are right for you to believe that he's real.

But your problem is something else if I understood. You make improvements and then you loose it. Like the myth of Sisyphus. Right?

Yup. While I "lift one stone up a mountain, the other one falls". Sometimes I do wonder if I also have a problem with Zeus/Jupiter.

maybe what you really want is a healing of mind and heart

Indeed. I have to find out what is it I have to heal in my mind to make permanent changes.

 

[Left Coast]

I can only tell you that if you'd be a Krishna devotee even for a few months, you would certainly notice that he's real. He would do exactly the things that are right for you to believe that he's real.

That is a basic recipe for confirmation bias. You're literally saying I need to believe something for a while before I'll get the evidence to convince me the belief is justified. That's the opposite of how critical thinking works. The time to believe something is after you've seen sufficient evidence for it.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Let's say I meditate repeating "I am perfect health" 108 times per day, for a month. It has results, I feel better, some health problems get solved, everything fine and dandy.

The next month I meditate with "I am perfect supply" and it also works. But my health slowly goes back to normal.

So it doesn't matter the practice or the path, whether I perform rituals, recite mantras, do spells, say prayers, etc. I can't get permanent results. I can't achieve goal A then B, then C... Because as soon as I start working on B, A slowly gets back to 0%.

Maybe you should change your affirmation/auto-suggestion to the classic Emile Coue formula:

"Every day, in every way, I'm getting better and better."

According to a Christian mystic Meister Eckhart the best prayer is:

"Lord, give me nothing but what thou wilt and dost -- Lord, what and how thou wilt in every detail!"

 

[agorman]

That is a basic recipe for confirmation bias. You're literally saying I need to believe something for a while before I'll get the evidence to convince me the belief is justified. That's the opposite of how critical thinking works. The time to believe something is after you've seen sufficient evidence for it.

AFAIK scientists start from the hypothesis that something exists, and then they make experiments to verify it. You may start by believing in the possibility of the existence of Krishna and then start reciting mantras to check the effects on your life.

I put Krishna as an example, but I could be talking about any god or buddha. In the case of Indian deities it's relatively easy to realize they exist; once you've meditated with their mantras and given them offerings. In fact, I think you should start with Ganesh if you wish to do an experiment.

But I think we're getting off-topic. My original post was about the reason why I got very few permanent results from all my spiritual practices.

 

[Left Coast]

AFAIK scientists start from the hypothesis that something exists, and then they make experiments to verify it.

Not quite. A hypothesis is a tentative explanation which scientists test to falsify it. If a hypothesis survives numerous rounds of attempted falsification, then we can start reasonably putting more confidence in it, though that confidence is always probabilistic, not absolute.

You may start by believing in the possibility of the existence of Krishna and then start reciting mantras to check the effects on your life.

So if I start reciting mantras and it has effects on my life, how will that demonstrate that Krishna exists?

But I think we're getting off-topic. My original post was about the reason why I got very few permanent results from all my spiritual practices.

It's weird that you're recommending an experiment that you're admitting doesn't get the results you're promising, isn't it?

 

[agorman]

So if I start reciting mantras and it has effects on my life, how will that demonstrate that Krishna exists?

Isn't it obvious? You call someone and he comes to help you, thus he exists.

It's weird that you're recommending an experiment that you're admitting doesn't get the results you're promising, isn't it?

No permanent results mostly. But results anyway. And a few of them permanent.

 

[Left Coast]

Isn't it obvious? You call someone and he comes to help you, thus he exists.

Wait wait, so the "effect on my life" is that Krishna will come to me? In an observable, independently verifiable way so I can distinguish him from a dream or hallucination? He'll what, come over to my house and chat with me over a cup of coffee?

 

[agorman]

Wait wait, so the "effect on my life" is that Krishna will come to me? In an observable, independently verifiable way so I can distinguish him from a dream or hallucination? He'll what, come over to my house and chat with me over a cup of coffee?

Normally you'd get more subtle physical proofs. But what if Krishna came down in a vimana and entered in your room to visit you? Would you run away in fear or welcome him? Or you'd believe you're insane? Krishna would never appear to you if you'd have a heart attack when you see him.

BTW, why do you think dreams and hallucinations aren't real? As in "real in another reality" or "real in another dimension". And that dimension is the basis for what happens on this physical plane.

Look this is about Shiva, not Krishna, but it is an example of a physical proof you could get as a devotee: I once repeated the Mahamrityunjaya mantra for a friend and made her cyatic pain to go away. She was a Christian friend (not fundamentalist), not a Shiva devotee. She couldn't get up from her chair. Thanks to my 5 minutes recitation she did get up and the pain relief lasted for a week. Also everytime I repeated the "Om namah shivaya" for my dad, made his back pain go away.

Too bad I felt the gods were forcing their culture on me; otherwise Hinduism would have been a great path to be in.

 

[Left Coast]

Normally you'd get more subtle physical proofs.

Ah ok like what? And how would I determine those subtle physical proofs were caused by a deity named Krishna?

But what if Krishna came down in a vimana and entered in your room to visit you? Would you run away in fear or welcome him? Or you'd believe you're insane? Krishna would never appear to you if you'd have a heart attack when you see him.

Firstly, I'd ask other people to be there to confirm what occurred. I'd also bring recording equipment (video cameras, etc.). If Krishna appeared and we were able to confirm that he's real like anything else we know is real, then obviously I'd believe he's real.

BTW, why do you think dreams and hallucinations aren't real?

Because of the definitions of the words.

As in "real in another reality" or "real in another dimension". And that dimension is the basis for what happens on this physical plane.

We have no rational basis for believing in such an "other reality" or that psychotic people are accessing it through their hallucinations.

Look this is about Shiva, not Krishna, but it is an example of a physical proof you could get as a devotee: I once repeated the Mahamrityunjaya mantra for a friend and made her cyatic pain to go away. She was a Christian friend (not fundamentalist), not a Shiva devotee. She couldn't get up from her chair. Thanks to my 5 minutes recitation she did get up and the pain relief lasted for a week. Also everytime I repeated the "Om namah shivaya" for my dad, made his back pain go away.

These examples do not demonstrate that any deity exists. You said a mantra, someone experienced pain relief. That doesn't demonstrate that they experienced pain relief because a Hindu deity caused it. That's what you'd need to show. Do you see the difference?