Genesis & Science - Friend or Foe?

[Subduction Zone]

@nPeace , I don't think that this is the thread that was meant. You should start your own thread in the one on one debate area where others, like me, could not butt in.

 

[nPeace]

@nPeace , I don't think that this is the thread that was meant. You should start your own thread in the one on one debate area where others, like me, could not butt in.

Good advice. Thanks.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Good advice. Thanks.

I will follow the debate if you do do. The rules of the forum limit those that can respond. You should not feel so overwhelmed.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You still won’t admit will you?

Admit what?

In case you haven’t noticed..go back and look properly..and will you see that I already gave you a HINT of your problem?

I don't care for your riddles and hint hunting.
Just state your position and be done with it.

You are being defensive.

Because you are attacking.

.it’s your sign of guilt!

Guilt of what?

explain to me what is your definition of HONEST?

Being truthfull. Not pretending to know things you don't.

And what exactly are you being HONEST for? You accuse me so I will accuse you.

The difference is that I motivated my accusation. You refuse to motivate yours.
I asked several times now.

You don’t know honest unless you know GOD.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Maybe, after the Flood, God made everything look like there was no Flood.

Can't argue with that off course.

Maybe there was no flood and God created everything 5 seconds ago, with all of us having memories implanted of having lived out entire lives and with evidence of a fake history of the planet and the human species.

Well, sure, why not?

God is mysterious after all. lol

 

[Subduction Zone]

Can't argue with that off course.

Maybe there was no flood and God created everything 5 seconds ago, with all of us having memories implanted of having lived out entire lives and with evidence of a fake history of the planet and the human species.

Well, sure, why not?

God is mysterious after all. lol

With a dishonest or lying God anything is possible. The problem with a lying God is that there is no reason to believe the heaven and hell stories or any of the God claims in the Bible. Literalists can at least figure that out. Which is why it drives them nuts when one points out that they are calling God a liar.

 

[Windwalker]

This video is the one I mentioned earlier. Clearly, it is no endorsement of education.
2018 JWBroadcasting "Higher education is useless" video CLIP

The irony is he has all this high-tech looking visual backdrop, none of which would be possible without higher education. If he were being true to his cult's message to "eschew knowledge", he would be sitting on a horse-drawn flat wagon out on the prairie, giving his speech to an audience talking through an empty bean can.

At least the Amish are consistent, and not being hypocritical by enjoying the fruits of higher education while denouncing it in the same breath.

 

[Windwalker]

Hey @Dan From Smithville you just earned a place on my ignore list. Enjoy.

This is consistent with how JWs tell its member to deal with views that don't agree with their own. Hide their faces from them. Put higher education on ignore.

Just know that you are right and everyone else must be wrong without critically examining your own views. Believe in the leadership, and don't let the light of reason steal your faith.

None of that is faith. It is nothing higher than just plain ole Fear.

 

[nPeace]

This is consistent with how JWs tell its member to deal with views that don't agree with their own. Hide their faces from them. Put higher education on ignore.

Just know that you are right and everyone else must be wrong without critically examining your own views. Believe in the leadership, and don't let the light of reason steal your faith.

None of that is faith. It is nothing higher than just plain ole Fear.

You would know. Not that you would admit it, because we don't normally want to admit these things about ourselves. We like to say it applies to the other person.

 

[Windwalker]

You would know. Not that you would admit it, because we don't normally want to admit these things about ourselves. We like to say it applies to the other person.

What are you not admitting to yourself? It is one thing if one person says something that you're doing, and is just saying anything to deflect from themselves. But it's entirely different when scores of other people are all saying the same thing you are denying to yourself.

And the reason I can say that what you have is a religion of fear, is because I was in a cult very much like this, saying the same sort of distortions of scripture that you've shared in order to isolate yourself from knowledge which may make you question what you've been taught. It's a type of mind-control, or brainwashing. Right now, you're in the denial, fearful stage. And as I say, that is not faith. Don't kid yourself.

 

[nPeace]

What are you not admitting to yourself? It is one thing if one person says something that you're doing, and is just saying anything to deflect from themselves. But it's entirely different when scores of other people are all saying the same thing you are denying to yourself.

And the reason I can say that what you have is a religion of fear, is because I was in a cult very much like this, saying the same sort of distortions of scripture that you've shared in order to isolate yourself from knowledge which may make you question what you've been taught. It's a type of mind-control, or brainwashing. Right now, you're in the denial, fearful stage. And as I say, that is not faith. Don't kid yourself.

So you are right, and I am wrong. Doesn't make any sense to me, debating that. You know.

 

[Windwalker]

So you are right, and I am wrong. Doesn't make any sense to me, debating that. You know.

I believe I know what I am talking about, because I have both knowledge and experience with these things. Groups like these prey upon people's fears. Not having an education about these things make you vulnerable to them. They promise you truth, and then tell you to not listen to nor believe anyone but them.

Are you afraid you might learn what you've put your hopes into for truth, might not actually be right? What would happen to your faith if you learned the JW's were not the protectors of truth you have built them up to be? Would you become an atheist?

 

[sooda]

You would know. Not that you would admit it, because we don't normally want to admit these things about ourselves. We like to say it applies to the other person.

Ike constantly bashing the Catholic church?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe I know what I am talking about, because I have both knowledge and experience with these things. Groups like these prey upon people's fears. Not having an education about these things make you vulnerable to them. They promise you truth, and then tell you to not listen to nor believe anyone but them.

Are you afraid you might learn what you've put your hopes into for truth, might not actually be right? What would happen to your faith if you learned the JW's were not the protectors of truth you have built them up to be? Would you become an atheist?

This is the sad thing about cults. They are very into thought control as shown by their stance against education. And it is also why it may be a doomed religion. The internet provides the information that the leadership of the church hates.

 

[nPeace]

I believe I know what I am talking about, because I have both knowledge and experience with these things. Groups like these prey upon people's fears. Not having an education about these things make you vulnerable to them. They promise you truth, and then tell you to not listen to nor believe anyone but them.

Are you afraid you might learn what you've put your hopes into for truth, might not actually be right? What would happen to your faith if you learned the JW's were not the protectors of truth you have built them up to be? Would you become an atheist?

You are not asking me, are you?
You know, don't you? Why not tell me, as you have been doing for the past... many posts.

 

[Windwalker]

This is the sad thing about cults. They are very into thought control as shown by their stance against education. And it is also why it may be a doomed religion. The internet provides the information that the leadership of the church hates.

I'm really using this thread to help me flesh out some thoughts that have been bugging me, like a knot needing to be untied. Here comes another one of those.

Not sure you followed the threads of thought I was chasing in talking with Dan From Smithville. I pointed out how Fundamentalism is at its heart an anti-modernity movement. It was born in America in a direct response to Modernity finding its way into their churches. Fundamentalism = Anti-Modernity = Anti-Science = Anti-Rationality = Anti-Intellectualism = Anti-Higher Education.

As such, they are a reactionary movement, a cultural response, dressed in the robes of religious self-identity. "Christianity" is the religious self-identity, and its interpretations of scripture are all centered around this withdrawal from Modernity into an imaginary "safe place" in an imaginary past. Nostalgia. It images itself as practicing the "true religion", free from all these new fangled thinkers in their ivory towers of academia.

Each of these group do these and claim this, regardless of their particular "schtick" they use to sell themselves to the masses with, such as claims to having the 12 apostles restored, some new revelation, tongues restored, the right translation that corrects the other churches, etc.

As reactionary movements, they withdraw from anything or anyone that might corrupt their truths they try to market to get new customers. As such, it is primed for leaders in position of power to exercise cultic practices to further isolate its members from the outside world, training them to "put on the helmet of faith" to protect them from the thoughts of those they try to sell their religious product to.

Faith is distorted to mean, resistance to change, or ideas, or anything or anyone that denies what they teach. It becomes praised as being "faithful", which is nothing other than just cult-loyalty. It is not a religious faith in the true sense of the word faith. It means instead, tenacious beliefs and loyalty to the group.

This isolationism makes in neither modernistic, nor traditionalistic. It becomes cultic instead, preying upon the vulnerable of society, showering them with love, then isolating them through fear of others in order to keep and control them. Those who stray, are "shunned", which is tantamount to crucifying someone and hanging them in a public sphere as an example to others who question "the truth" as a fearful warning to them what happens to "traitors of the faith".

I used to be a moderator on a forum for many years which had scores of deconverts coming out of fundamentalist churches. The psychological and emotional damage exacted by these groups is, to put it mildly, evil.

They tell you if you doubt the beliefs, you're listening to the devil. They misapply scripture where it says, "The heart is deceitfully wicked", to say if you feel any shadow of doubt, not to listen to your own heart. The constantly talk about how they have the real truth and how others have been deceived by Satan. And on and on.

These folks I've dealt with, online and in person in groups for former-fundamentalists all suffer for years, trying to untangle the lies they were told, trying to find peace for themselves. It's like finding out your spouse has betrayed you, lying to you while cheating with someone else. It destroys their faith, or at the least makes them completely gunshy of anything religious, many becoming atheists as a result because its definitely safer than another belief system, where they were vulnerable before.

To put a blunt point on this. It is experienced as a form of spiritual rape. It is traumatic. It takes a process of healing to reclaim your own sense of power and dignity after having given over your power to them, out of trust. Some move on to find healing in their lives, get stuck in their bitterness and end up hating religion for the rest of their lives, like someone who never will trust another person again in any relationship. I don't know if they have a specific DSM for those recovering from Fundamentalism, but they should.

 

[nPeace]

Ike constantly bashing the Catholic church?

Who me? Say what?
If you are referring to sharing with others our beliefs on religion that does not teach what is in the Bible, we do that, but isn't that what the Bible says, we must do?
That means you as well - if you profess to believe the Bible - doesn't it?
That's what you refer to as bashing? Then it must be right.
We are not to water down the word of God. 2 Corinthians. 6:14, 15

If you are saying this now, I can imagine what you would say at this time. Revelation 16:21

 

[Windwalker]

You are not asking me, are you?
You know, don't you? Why not tell me, as you have been doing for the past... many posts.

Yes, I am asking you. I don't presume to know what you're thinking.

Here's my question again, if you feel you would like to answer this for yourself:

"Are you afraid you might learn what you've put your hopes into for truth, might not actually be right? What would happen to your faith if you learned the JW's were not the protectors of truth you have built them up to be? Would you become an atheist?"

I don't know the answer to this. Only you do.

 

[sooda]

Who me? Say what?
If you are referring to sharing with others our beliefs on religion that does not teach what is in the Bible, we do that, but isn't that what the Bible says, we must do?
That means you as well - if you profess to believe the Bible - doesn't it?
That's what you refer to as bashing? Then it must be right.
We are not to water down the word of God. 2 Corinthians. 6:14, 15

If you are saying this now, I can imagine what you would say at this time. Revelation 16:21

The Bible has had many authors over a thousand years.. It has been added to, redacted, amended and translated. The foundational stories were all borrowed from other, older, regional cultures.

Revelation 16: 21 is about huge rocks catapulted by the Roman legions at Jerusalem in 70 AD.

 

[sooda]

1. Great Sieges: The Roman Siege of Jerusalem – One Million ...
   ANCIENT HISTORY Archivesgreat-sieges-jerusalem-xc.html
   The Romans concentrated a huge assault against the fortress with stones thrown from siege weapons and battering rams, but the defenders caused a great deal of damage to the Romans by throwing rocks and missiles down from the tower. A few sections were damaged in …
   
   
2. Masada | The Jewish Agency
   www.jewishagency.org/news/content/26067
   But in 72 c.e., two years after Jerusalem had fallen and the Temple was destroyed, the Roman governor Flavius Silva marched against them with the Tenth Legion; they were now beleagured in the last remaining Zealot stronghold. The Jewish camp was pelted from below with catapulted rocks.