Freedom index 2021.

[Twilight Hue]

But are you (the USA) low on the scale? And have you got any lower than you used to be?

What data from the link are you referring to? I looked yesterday and couldn't see any significant change. What am I missing?

I think we are. In the past we were in the top 3 countries. Now we don't even make the top ten on the scale.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Then why do you think we are so low on the scale?

Maybe it is our recent flirtation with authoritarian rule.

 

[exchemist]

Not sure about the Cato Institute survey linked by the OP, although Freedom House's ranking of the U.S. showed a decline in freedom from last year.

United States: Freedom in the World 2021 Country Report | Freedom House

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They note a global trend in the decline in overall freedom: Freedom in the World 2021: Democracy under Siege | Freedom House

OK thanks, for that.

I think we are. In the past we were in the top 3 countries. Now we don't even make the top ten on the scale.

Yes, looking at the Cato report, which is for 2020, the rating does indeed seem to have declined. I see that one of the issues that seems to be responsible is some of things that happened during the Trump administration that undermined democracy, plus the further entrenchment of money in the US political system.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The thing I often have trouble convincing Americans (in particular) of is that 'freedom' isn't simply a matter of having the least amount of rules.

It does really seem like many Americans use complete and total anarchy as the default measurement for freedom, and anything less than that infringes upon their make-believe rights they heard about in echo chambers (as they certainly didn't get these ideas from the Constitution).

 

[Stevicus]

It does really seem like many Americans use complete and total anarchy as the default measurement for freedom, and anything less than that infringes upon their make-believe rights they heard about in echo chambers (as they certainly didn't get these ideas from the Constitution).

They always told us in school that you have the right to do anything you want, as long as it doesn't impede or interfere with anyone else's right do what they want. That was the simple rule of thumb we were taught, although as I got older, I realized it wasn't that way at all.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They always told us in school that you have the right to do anything you want, as long as it doesn't impede or interfere with anyone else's right do what they want. That was the simple rule of thumb we were taught, although as I got older, I realized it wasn't that way at all.

I wasn't really taught about rights when I was homeschooled, but apparently I had an awesome government teacher in high school because he did not teach that and it was very "by the Constitution" with hefty doses of Supreme Court rulings to know whats what as far as our rights go. Amd if you want to complain or suggest change he had contact information on hand for everyone including the county dog catcher.

 

[metis]

If I ignore mandates not to kill people and shoot up a mall, is that really freedom?

 

[Secret Chief]

You don't think that happens in New Zealand? IIRC they've had one of the strictest pandemic protocols out there.

And a Labour prime minister.

 

[anna.]

And a Labour prime minister.

Whoops...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And a Labour prime minister.

And they've banned single use plastic shopping bags.
They're strict with guns and banned lots of them.
They've banned public smoking and most tobacco advertisement.
In other words, done a lot of stuff the OP is complaining about being done here in some states.

 

[Secret Chief]

And they've banned single use plastic shopping bags.
They're strict with guns and banned lots of them.
They've banned public smoking and most tobacco advertisement.
In other words, done a lot of stuff the OP is complaining about being done here in some states.

Yes, NZ is a beacon in the darkness of a neoliberal world.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, NZ is a beacon in the darkness of a neoliberal world.

That, and it really shows how well these "freedom lovers" are thinking things through.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If I ignore mandates not to kill people and shoot up a mall, is that really freedom?

Yep. Freedom for you would go up a little. But allowing other people to ignore those same mandates?
Now your freedom goes way, way down.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think we are. In the past we were in the top 3 countries. Now we don't even make the top ten on the scale.

Things like the Patriot Act, and the constant questioning of election results have major impacts on this.

Banning plastic shopping bags doesn't.

I think how you're judging freedom is on a personal level, but that is only a small component of how they measure freedom. Democratic institutions matter more.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Things like the Patriot Act, and the constant questioning of election results have major impacts on this.

Banning plastic shopping bags doesn't.

I think how you're judging freedom is on a personal level, but that is only a small component of how they measure freedom. Democratic institutions matter more.

Just to clarify its not just plastic bags. My concern regarding that is actually the legal mechanism used to ban plastic bags among other nanny state legislation.​

The point of that is when they can force businesses from supplying plastic bags , a perfectly legal item, they can also take things much further and ramp it up to banning or restricting far more serious things, hence the eventual complete control of any means of production no matter what.

Down the road, it contributes greatly in destroying the freedom of having a free independent market.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just to clarify its not just plastic bags. My concern regarding that is the legal mechanism used to ban plastic bags among other nanny state legislation.

The point of that is when they can force businesses from supplying plastic bags , they can also take things much further and ramp it up to banning or restricting far more serious things, hence the eventual complete control of any means of production no matter what down the road.

Maybe we need to give the Statue of Liberty to New Zealand as the most free place on earth.

New Zealand does a lot of the things you complain about. They're even more strict in some areas. Those same legal mechanisms exist. They can do it there, they have done it there, they have went further, but yet they are more free.
How do you explain this?

 

[Twilight Hue]

New Zealand does a lot of the things you complain about. They're even more strict in some areas. Those same legal mechanisms exist. They can do it there, they have done it there, they have went further, but yet they are more free.
How do you explain this?

I can't, and your right, there are a lot of things I'd complain about in New Zeeland.

However there's a concern that New Zealand may not hold the crown of freedom as they continue doing those sorts of things.

It will be interesting to see if they hold the top spot in the coming future.

It does make me wonder if freedom is actually conditioned among the eyes of its beholder.

Your sense of freedom may or actually differ from mine. That would make an excellent philosophical topic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It does make me wonder if freedom is actually conditioned among the eyes of its beholder.

I read the transcript of a debate between French philosopher Michel Foucault and a Chinese Maoist. And it made it apparent such a thing is a part of it, because the Chinese man did assert he is free.
But it's also what is freedom? Is it total personal freedom, such as anarchy? Does it mean free of paying the consequences of the actions of others? Does it include being free from sharing in the risks others take? Does it include being free to participate in markets beyond mere survival?
Freedom doesn't just mean "free do to," but it also includes being "free from." Such the First Amendment, which guarantees us both the freedom of religion and freedom from religion. Or, free to worship as we please, but also free from the religious imposing their dogma on us. That restriction maximizes freedom for more people to a greater extent.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Just to clarify its not just plastic bags. My concern regarding that is actually the legal mechanism used to ban plastic bags among other nanny state legislation.​

The point of that is when they can force businesses from supplying plastic bags , a perfectly legal item, they can also take things much further and ramp it up to banning or restricting far more serious things, hence the eventual complete control of any means of production no matter what.

Down the road, it contributes greatly in destroying the freedom of having a free independent market.

That's all well and good...but there are a whole raft of issues DIRECTLY involving democratic process in America, and fixing those will go far further to increasing freedom than focusing on the legal mechanism used for banning plastic bags, imho...and, dare I say, in ratings like the Freedom Index.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's all well and good...but there are a whole raft of issues DIRECTLY involving democratic process in America, and fixing those will go far further to increasing freedom than focusing on the legal mechanism used for banning plastic bags, imho...and, dare I say, in ratings like the Freedom Index.

You mean, restricting voting access makes a nation less free? Who'd a thunkit?!?