Free Will & the Afterlife in Christianity and Islam

[JosephThomas]

Free will is often cited as the justification for reward and punishment in these twin Abrahamic religions. But how does this work?

Supposedly, slaves-submitters ("believers") and rebellious hellions ("sinners") both have free will in this life. In fact free will is very important, particularly in most forms of Christianity, for explaining the fall. Sophisticated theologians also explain that free will is retained in heaven, which causes people to sin, which results in their perpetual punishment being "just" because it is the sin that they choose that justifies their torture forever and ever.

Conversely, free will does not appear to exist in heaven. Believers are happy slaves-submitters who spend eternity praising God. In fact they do not have free will, per said sophisticated theologians, because they cannot rebel against God and choose evil.

What is the logic here? How can free will be so necessary and wonderful in this life, but be the "gift" of the damned in the next life? Why not just create people without free will initially, and lose this whole problem of free will and punishment altogether?

your so confused I am aggravated by my desire to answer you.

YOU define for me, praising God. and then I will answer your question with satisfaction.

 

[gsa]

your so confused I am aggravated by my desire to answer you.

YOU define for me, praising God. and then I will answer your question with satisfaction.

Define what for you?

 

[JosephThomas]

Define what for you?

to you, what does it mean to "Praise God." If you can tell me what it means for you to praise God, then I can respond to this thread.

 

[Nakosis]

Free will is often cited as the justification for reward and punishment in these twin Abrahamic religions. But how does this work?

Supposedly, slaves-submitters ("believers") and rebellious hellions ("sinners") both have free will in this life. In fact free will is very important, particularly in most forms of Christianity, for explaining the fall. Sophisticated theologians also explain that free will is retained in heaven, which causes people to sin, which results in their perpetual punishment being "just" because it is the sin that they choose that justifies their torture forever and ever.

Conversely, free will does not appear to exist in heaven. Believers are happy slaves-submitters who spend eternity praising God. In fact they do not have free will, per said sophisticated theologians, because they cannot rebel against God and choose evil.

What is the logic here? How can free will be so necessary and wonderful in this life, but be the "gift" of the damned in the next life? Why not just create people without free will initially, and lose this whole problem of free will and punishment altogether?

I'm not sure why you associate free will as the cause of sin. Free will allows you to make a choice. Doesn't mean you have to choose to do something bad. The experience of heaven and hell are the results of the choices you make. You have to deal with the consequences of your choices.

Say you are experiencing heaven, why would you choose to act badly. Of course you could but why would you. If you want to make bad choices, heaven is probably not the place you'd want to be anyway.

The wrong assumption I think here is that having free will means you have to make bad choices. Seems kind of the opposite of free will doesn't it?

 

[Kolibri]

The wrong assumption I think here is that having free will means you have to make bad choices. Seems kind of the opposite of free will doesn't it?

Agreed.

 

[justfoolingaround]

Well, I see an immense amount of opinions voiced about Christianity. I have heard an Islamic story about destiny and predetermination of it.
Once, Omar, one of Mohammad's followers when he preached Quran, was travelling with canel convoys on the desert. One of his man informed him about possible attack in their destination. So when he changed their route, other man shouted at him: "Are you running away from your destiny determined by God?" And he replied "I am running away from the destiny determined by God to a destiny determined by God.
I am not a scholar or a theologian but just thought it may be informing.

 

[Bill Van Fleet]

https://www.humanianity.com//homorationalis/hr302.html

This may be of interest to some here. It begins:

[
Throughout much of Western philosophical thought there has been an overt and/or underlying set of problems that have produced polarities of thinking, such as idealism vs. realism, but never to my knowledge any satisfactory conclusion. These problems have long been called "the "mind-body problem" and the "free will vs. determinism problem," or referred to in some similar manner. They are actually problems associated with some of our species' most difficult issues (involving major decision-making). I wish to solve these problems, and believe I have. See if you think I have.


The "mind-body problem" has to do with what the connection is between the two, including the issue as to how it can be that one may influence the other, especially when the physical sciences (physics, chemistry, biology, etc.), that have made great strides in understanding how the body (including the brain) works, use formulas that contain no variables having to do with the mind. And the "free will vs. determinism problem" has to do with how, if everything in the universe occurs according to causal laws, we are able to make decisions, when what we do was already bound to occur anyway.]

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Free will is often cited as the justification for reward and punishment in these twin Abrahamic religions. But how does this work?
Supposedly, slaves-submitters ("believers") and rebellious hellions ("sinners") both have free will in this life. In fact free will is very important, particularly in most forms of Christianity, for explaining the fall. Sophisticated theologians also explain that free will is retained in heaven, which causes people to sin, which results in their perpetual punishment being "just" because it is the sin that they choose that justifies their torture forever and ever.
Conversely, free will does not appear to exist in heaven. Believers are happy slaves-submitters who spend eternity praising God. In fact they do not have free will, per said sophisticated theologians, because they cannot rebel against God and choose evil.
What is the logic here? How can free will be so necessary and wonderful in this life, but be the "gift" of the damned in the next life? Why not just create people without free will initially, and lose this whole problem of free will and punishment altogether?

If free-will choices did Not exist in heaven then Satan, nor his fallen angels, could Not have rebelled - James 1:13-15
Jesus was sent from heaven to earth by God. What would be the point of Satan tempting Jesus if Jesus could Not be tempted ?

Those called to heaven from earth - Revelation 20:6 - have a first or earlier resurrection. They have proven faithful - Revelation 2:10
Like Jesus they do Not want to rebel. Adam failed under least conditions, Jesus and Job proved faithful under adverse conditions.
So, we can all choose to use our gift of free will however we want to use it.
We can lean toward badness, or we can lean to be upright. The choice is ours to make.

There is a religious myth taught as Scripture but Not really what the Bible really teaches.
KJV Bibles translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire. That is where the forever burning enters into the picture.
Gehenna was simply a garbage pit where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever.
So, Gehenna is a fitting symbol for eternal destruction and Not eternal burning. The wicked are destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B, and Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8
So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for destroyed forever as in annihilation. No postmortem penalty involved.
Even father Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life. - Genesis 3:19
No postmortem penalty for sinner Adam because 'death ' stamps the price tag of sin as Paid In Full.
However, unlike Satan, his fallen angels, and Adam, we have the opportunity to be resurrected due to Jesus' ransom for us.

 

[Neo Deist]

If free-will choices did Not exist in heaven then Satan, nor his fallen angels, could Not have rebelled - James 1:13-15
Jesus was sent from heaven to earth by God. What would be the point of Satan tempting Jesus if Jesus could Not be tempted ?

Those called to heaven from earth - Revelation 20:6 - have a first or earlier resurrection. They have proven faithful - Revelation 2:10
Like Jesus they do Not want to rebel. Adam failed under least conditions, Jesus and Job proved faithful under adverse conditions.
So, we can all choose to use our gift of free will however we want to use it.
We can lean toward badness, or we can lean to be upright. The choice is ours to make.

There is a religious myth taught as Scripture but Not really what the Bible really teaches.
KJV Bibles translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire. That is where the forever burning enters into the picture.
Gehenna was simply a garbage pit where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever.
So, Gehenna is a fitting symbol for eternal destruction and Not eternal burning. The wicked are destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B, and Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8
So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for destroyed forever as in annihilation. No postmortem penalty involved.
Even father Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life. - Genesis 3:19
No postmortem penalty for sinner Adam because 'death ' stamps the price tag of sin as Paid In Full.
However, unlike Satan, his fallen angels, and Adam, we have the opportunity to be resurrected due to Jesus' ransom for us.

Need to correct you on a few things...

1. The Lord's Prayer, found in Matthew 6:9-13, clearly states that God's will is done in heaven. If that is the case, then how did Satan rebel? He didn't. The KJV butchered the translation and story line.
2. The term Satan is not a name, it is a title and it properly translates to adversary. His role is to test you as commanded by God. The story of Job is such a test, with the rules dictated by God. Jesus was also tested but for a higher purpose.
3. The KJV does not translate Gehenna into hellfire. It incorrectly translates the term (along with hades, sheol and tartarus) into hell, and that gives rise to the concept of an eternal torment for non-Christians.
4. Where do you get the concept that there were fallen angels that joined Satan? FYI- there is not a single verse that makes that claim. The closest thing is found in Revelation 12:8: "And the dragon's tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth." However it is crucial to understand that the term used here for heaven (Greek - ouranoß) is referring to the cosmos, not God's place of residence...and it is metaphorical as we know 1/3 of the stars can't fit on our little planet.
5. The OT (Ezekiel 18) clearly states that someone else can't atone for your sins. The idea that Jesus died for our sins came about long after his death. As a matter of fact, the NT was pretty much written AFTER Jesus' death, often by anonymous authors some decades later. Blood sacrifices were a part of ancient man's earliest beliefs, all over the world...and they accomplished nothing (Ex. ancient Mayans would cut out the heart from living beings, thinking the blood sacrifice would cause the sun to return. We now know that was just a naturally occurring eclipse).

Carry on...

 

[George-ananda]

https://www.humanianity.com//homorationalis/hr302.html

This may be of interest to some here. It begins:

[
Throughout much of Western philosophical thought there has been an overt and/or underlying set of problems that have produced polarities of thinking, such as idealism vs. realism, but never to my knowledge any satisfactory conclusion. These problems have long been called "the "mind-body problem" and the "free will vs. determinism problem," or referred to in some similar manner. They are actually problems associated with some of our species' most difficult issues (involving major decision-making). I wish to solve these problems, and believe I have. See if you think I have.


The "mind-body problem" has to do with what the connection is between the two, including the issue as to how it can be that one may influence the other, especially when the physical sciences (physics, chemistry, biology, etc.), that have made great strides in understanding how the body (including the brain) works, use formulas that contain no variables having to do with the mind. And the "free will vs. determinism problem" has to do with how, if everything in the universe occurs according to causal laws, we are able to make decisions, when what we do was already bound to occur anyway.]

I don't understand what you mean by saying that you 'solved these problems'?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Need to correct you on a few things...
1. The Lord's Prayer, found in Matthew 6:9-13, clearly states that God's will is done in heaven. If that is the case, then how did Satan rebel? He didn't. The KJV butchered the translation and story line.
2. The term Satan is not a name, it is a title and it properly translates to adversary. His role is to test you as commanded by God. The story of Job is such a test, with the rules dictated by God. Jesus was also tested but for a higher purpose.
3. The KJV does not translate Gehenna into hellfire. It incorrectly translates the term (along with hades, sheol and tartarus) into hell, and that gives rise to the concept of an eternal torment for non-Christians.
4. Where do you get the concept that there were fallen angels that joined Satan? FYI- there is not a single verse that makes that claim. The closest thing is found in Revelation 12:8: "And the dragon's tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth." However it is crucial to understand that the term used here for heaven (Greek - ouranoß) is referring to the cosmos, not God's place of residence...and it is metaphorical as we know 1/3 of the stars can't fit on our little planet.
5. The OT (Ezekiel 18) clearly states that someone else can't atone for your sins. The idea that Jesus died for our sins came about long after his death. As a matter of fact, the NT was pretty much written AFTER Jesus' death, often by anonymous authors some decades later. Blood sacrifices were a part of ancient man's earliest beliefs, all over the world...and they accomplished nothing (Ex. ancient Mayans would cut out the heart from living beings, thinking the blood sacrifice would cause the sun to return. We now know that was just a naturally occurring eclipse).
Carry on...

1. Yes, God's will is done in heaven - authorized KJV Luke 11:2-4 besides Matthew 6:9-13- and we are praying God's will be done right here on earth as it is in heaven.
2. The spirit cherub person titled as Satan and Devil in heaven had and still has free will - Ezekiel 28:13-17
3. Why do you say KJV does Not translate Gehenna as hellfire when KJV Matthew 5:22; Matthew 18:9 does ?
and isn't KJV Mark 9:45-47 also Gehenna ?_______ Also, KJV James 3:6 uses ' fire of hell ' (aka hellfire )
4. Yes, applied in the ' general sense ' Greek aster and a'stron are cosmos bodies like the sun and stars.
In Bible speak, in a figurative sense, such as in the account about Joseph's 11 brothers represented by stars.
Job 38:7 knows literal stars do Not cry out. Isn't Jesus figuratively called the bright mourning star ?
Messages are given by the symbolic 7 stars or messengers.
Genesis 37:9-10; Revelation 22:16 Revelation 2:26-28; Revelation 1:16; Revelation 1:20; Revelation 2:1 and Revelation 3:1
5. Right, in the sense that No one with sin can atone for sins. We can't resurrect oneself or another so we need someone who can do that for us. Because Jesus, who had God as his father, then sinless Jesus could be that ransom for us .- Matthew 20:28

Mayans and Aztecs came much after the Flood of Noah's day. Remember the earlier account about Cain and Abel. A blood sacrifice was used, but animal sacrifices only showed the need for a redeemer. No animal or sinning human could correspond to sinless Adam meaning Adam was created without sin. Then when sinless Adam chose to break God's Law, then our father Adam could only pass down to us his then acquired human imperfection down to us.

 

[Neo Deist]

1. Yes, God's will is done in heaven - authorized KJV Luke 11:2-4 besides Matthew 6:9-13- and we are praying God's will be done right here on earth as it is in heaven.

Ok then if God's will is done in heaven, then obviously Satan's will isn't. Therefore he can't rebel if it means going against God's will.

2. The spirit cherub person titled as Satan and Devil in heaven had and still has free will - Ezekiel 28:13-17

Those verses have nothing to do with Satan. They are in reference to the King of Tyre, a human. Nor does it say anything about free will.

3. Why do you say KJV does Not translate Gehenna as hellfire when KJV Matthew 5:22; Matthew 18:9 does ?
and isn't KJV Mark 9:45-47 also Gehenna ?_______ Also, KJV James 3:6 uses ' fire of hell ' (aka hellfire )

The KJV incorrectly translated the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek into "hell," as a place of burning and eternal torment. That has been covered.

4. Yes, applied in the ' general sense ' Greek aster and a'stron are cosmos bodies like the sun and stars.
In Bible speak, in a figurative sense, such as in the account about Joseph's 11 brothers represented by stars.
Job 38:7 knows literal stars do Not cry out. Isn't Jesus figuratively called the bright mourning star ?

"The general sense." So now you pick and choose...typical. Oh and if you believe that Lucifer is another name for Satan (KJV - Isaiah 14:12), well it means "the morning star," although it is actually talking about the planet Venus. That verse has nothing to do with Satan...it is about a fallen king of Babylon.

So I guess Jesus is also Lucifer, according to the Latin definition and your quoted verse.

5. Right, in the sense that No one with sin can atone for sins.

Now you are adding words and personal interpretation. The Bible never states that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ok then if God's will is done in heaven, then obviously Satan's will isn't. Therefore he can't rebel if it means going against God's will.
Those verses have nothing to do with Satan. They are in reference to the King of Tyre, a human. Nor does it say anything about free will.
The KJV incorrectly translated the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek into "hell," as a place of burning and eternal torment. That has been covered.
"The general sense." So now you pick and choose...typical. Oh and if you believe that Lucifer is another name for Satan (KJV - Isaiah 14:12), well it means "the morning star," although it is actually talking about the planet Venus. That verse has nothing to do with Satan...it is about a fallen king of Babylon.
So I guess Jesus is also Lucifer, according to the Latin definition and your quoted verse.
Now you are adding words and personal interpretation. The Bible never states that.

What is your take about atonement at Leviticus 17:11?
Animals could Not be an equal atonement ( life for life ) for human Adam.
Also, any thoughts about Psalms 49:7; Psalms 49:15 ? because it is beyond us to redeem ourselves, otherwise we could resurrect oneself.

Adam rebelled against God's will or purpose for the earth, so why couldn't Satan rebel against God's will or purpose for heaven ?
Satan was cast out of heaven according to Revelation 12:9; Revelation 12:12

Please note the King of Tyre was never a covering cherub in Eden - Ezekiel 28:13-16 - so the reference is to: Satan.
The King of Tyre was boastful and haughty like Satan is - Ezekiel 28:2 - so his conduct was satanic in nature - Ezekiel 26:21 -
so, he could be used as an example of Satan, but the reference is directed to: cherubic Satan.

No, Lucifer is Not a name for Satan. Satan the Devil's name is unknown. KJV used the name Lucifer. Star as in Ezekiel 28:17
The Hebrew has the word ' heh-lel ' for Satan as the 'shining one'. Not the bright morning star.

Also, Satan filled the King of Babylon with wrong ambitions. Babylon being a tool of Satan reflected Satan's wrong ambitious desires.

We are praying for God's will (purpose ) to be done on earth ' as it is done in heaven '. In heaven there is No sickness and death, so we are praying that sickness and death end on earth - The healthy happy ending of Revelation 22:2 is that mankind will see the return on earth of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for all of earth's nations. Jesus will fulfill God's promise to Abraham that all families of earth will be blessed, and all nations of earth will be blessed. Blessed with the healing of earth's nations.
- Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18; Revelation 22:2; Revelation 21:4-5; Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 25:8 and chapter 35 of Isaiah.

 

[Neo Deist]

What is your take about atonement at Leviticus 17:11?
Animals could Not be an equal atonement ( life for life ) for human Adam.
Also, any thoughts about Psalms 49:7; Psalms 49:15 ? because it is beyond us to redeem ourselves, otherwise we could resurrect oneself.

Adam rebelled against God's will or purpose for the earth, so why couldn't Satan rebel against God's will or purpose for heaven ?
Satan was cast out of heaven according to Revelation 12:9; Revelation 12:12

Please note the King of Tyre was never a covering cherub in Eden - Ezekiel 28:13-16 - so the reference is to: Satan.
The King of Tyre was boastful and haughty like Satan is - Ezekiel 28:2 - so his conduct was satanic in nature - Ezekiel 26:21 -
so, he could be used as an example of Satan, but the reference is directed to: cherubic Satan.

No, Lucifer is Not a name for Satan. Satan the Devil's name is unknown. KJV used the name Lucifer. Star as in Ezekiel 28:17
The Hebrew has the word ' heh-lel ' for Satan as the 'shining one'. Not the bright morning star.

Also, Satan filled the King of Babylon with wrong ambitions. Babylon being a tool of Satan reflected Satan's wrong ambitious desires.

We are praying for God's will (purpose ) to be done on earth ' as it is done in heaven '. In heaven there is No sickness and death, so we are praying that sickness and death end on earth - The healthy happy ending of Revelation 22:2 is that mankind will see the return on earth of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for all of earth's nations. Jesus will fulfill God's promise to Abraham that all families of earth will be blessed, and all nations of earth will be blessed. Blessed with the healing of earth's nations.
- Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18; Revelation 22:2; Revelation 21:4-5; Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 25:8 and chapter 35 of Isaiah.

There are a lotta assumptions in that post.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Deist Mentor, Isn't there a lotta assumptions in: Somewhere between the "Wrong side of Heaven, and the Righteous Side of Hell "?

What is the wrong side of heaven ?
What is the righteous side of hell - biblical hell that is.

There are two (2) hells:
One hell is the permanent forever burning ' religious-myth hell ' taken from philosophies and theories Not found in Scripture but just taught as if in Scripture.
Whereas biblical hell is temporary and comes to a final end when everyone in hell is ' delivered up' ( resurrected ) out of hell before emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' of Revelation 20:13-14

Since the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5 - then those in the Bible's hell are Not aware of anything.
They are in a sleep-like state, Not a pain-like state.
- Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; John 11:11-14

Those temporarily asleep in the grave ( biblical hell ) will be awakened from death's deep sleep during Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth. That is what Daniel looked forward to according to Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13.
People like Daniel and King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34 - will be brought back to life in perfectly healthy physical bodies having a sound heart, mind and body capable of living forever on a beautiful paradisaical earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.

 

[Neo Deist]

Deist Mentor, Isn't there a lotta assumptions in: Somewhere between the "Wrong side of Heaven, and the Righteous Side of Hell "?

What is the wrong side of heaven ?
What is the righteous side of hell - biblical hell that is.

There are two (2) hells:
One hell is the permanent forever burning ' religious-myth hell ' taken from philosophies and theories Not found in Scripture but just taught as if in Scripture.
Whereas biblical hell is temporary and comes to a final end when everyone in hell is ' delivered up' ( resurrected ) out of hell before emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' of Revelation 20:13-14

Since the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5 - then those in the Bible's hell are Not aware of anything.
They are in a sleep-like state, Not a pain-like state.
- Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; John 11:11-14

Those temporarily asleep in the grave ( biblical hell ) will be awakened from death's deep sleep during Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth. That is what Daniel looked forward to according to Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13.
People like Daniel and King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34 - will be brought back to life in perfectly healthy physical bodies having a sound heart, mind and body capable of living forever on a beautiful paradisaical earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.

It's a song by 5FDP...

 

[Baladas]

I just saw this thread again and remembered being told by an older gentlemen that I respected a lot, and who mentored me for a time, that free will would exist in heaven but that we would not want to sin.

We could sin, but that we just wouldn't want to.
He likened it to the way that he could grab a pot of boiling water from the stove top and pour it over his head, but that didn't mean he had any desire to.

My personal take on it was less fear-driven.
That we could technically sin, but that we wouldn't want to because we would be in a state of total bliss.

Of course now the whole thing is moot point for me, but it is still interesting to discuss sometimes.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I just saw this thread again and remembered being told by an older gentlemen that I respected a lot, and who mentored me for a time, that free will would exist in heaven but that we would not want to sin.
We could sin, but that we just wouldn't want to.
He likened it to the way that he could grab a pot of boiling water from the stove top and pour it over his head, but that didn't mean he had any desire to.
My personal take on it was less fear-driven.
That we could technically sin, but that we wouldn't want to because we would be in a state of total bliss.
Of course now the whole thing is moot point for me, but it is still interesting to discuss sometimes.

Yes, righteous people will lean toward being upright rather than lean or bend toward wrongdoing.

I was wondering if you'd want to compare the tree picture you posted with the return on earth of the Genesis ' tree of life ' as described at Revelation 22:2. On earth we will see the return of the edenic tree of life for the healing of earth's nations under Christ's coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

 

[snazzykyle]

I think the importance of "free will" to theodicy is very closely tied to the classical description of God as an omnipotent supreme being. And also omniscient and omnibenevolent but it's omnipotence that is the most crucial to the problem.

I liked this insight! However, I prefer the word omniscient when tackling the idea of free will. The omniscient aspect of God's character is what makes the topic of free will so fuzzy. How can we have free will when we were created by an omniscient being? This is getting away from the OP a little, but it something that I have a difficult time reasoning through. I like to believe that in some way, God was able to grant us free will, but still maintain omniscience.

I just saw this thread again and remembered being told by an older gentlemen that I respected a lot, and who mentored me for a time, that free will would exist in heaven but that we would not want to sin.

I believe that this is the best answer to the OP.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I strongly believe that free will is directly linked to our potential. Without free will we would honor God without fault much like a tree, rock, our solar system. If civilization as a whole somehow relinquished their free will and selflessly submitted to God in all that they do then our potential would literally be without limit wholly under God. Thank you.