Free Will and Fate

[atanu]

How are free will and fate related? To whom is free will and fate?

Free-will and fate, to me, are two sides of the same coin. Fate is the result of freewill and freewill leads to fate. Both evolve around the ignorance on the part of the living being that "I am the doer". This is the notion created by ego, which itself is a notion.

Ego self is neither the creator and nor the owner of intelligence and life. But it takes possession of these and their objects and perpetuates the dilemmas with such thoughts as "I should have done that" or "I should do that". Free will and fate are thus, IMO, notions in mind, which is a bundle of thoughts that appear after the fact.

But is the living being just a puppet?

 

[sandandfoam]

But is the living being just a puppet?

I think that since objectivity is unknowable all that matters is whether one feels like a puppet.
I know that I don't.

 

[atanu]

I think that since objectivity is unknowable all that matters is whether one feels like a puppet.
I know that I don't.

I think that there is a double layer to this.

 

[elmarna]

I do not agreewith your objectivity that free will and fate are on the same side of the coin.
Freewill is about choices and the path you tavel on is in the accountablity of those decisions you make.
Fatealisum is in the understanding that no matter what or how you choose the path of destiny has preordained your outcome.
Our first connection to life is the awakening of feelings.
Our life is to experience and express -not likely a conduit of control,but, a way to connect in a world of life both inside and out.

 

[sandandfoam]

I think that there is a double layer to this.

It seems so.
It also seems to me that beyond the first layer there is no longer an I.

 

[atanu]

I do not agreewith your objectivity that free will and fate are on the same side of the coin.
Freewill is about choices and the path you tavel on is in the accountablity of those decisions you make.
Fatealisum is in the understanding that no matter what or how you choose the path of destiny has preordained your outcome.

I said two sides of the same coin, which is karma (work). Let someone wise speak:

Ramana Maharshi. "There was a time when we had free will. We could act as we pleased. We acted, and that act produced a certain result. That "result" became our destiny. We could not escape it. We acted again. This time our free will carried with it the experience of our first act and was qualified and limited to that extent. This act again produced results, and these results again curtailed our original freedom. Now that we have been acting and producing results for millions of ages, these actions and their reactions act upon us as our unavoidable fate called Praarabdh. Our body, mind, intellect, and reasoning are fashioned by these and make us choose a certain course. Our previous acts determine our present life, and our present acts go to make our future. We reap now what we have sown in our previous births, and we shall reap in the future what we are sowing now.”

 

[atanu]

It seems so.
It also seems to me that beyond the first layer there is no longer an I.

I fully agree.

 

[Starsoul]

This was best described by one of the companions of the prophet Muhammad, Calipha hazrat Ali ( may Allah be pleased with him)

He was asked by a man " how much is my free will and how much is my fate?"

He asked the man who was standing, to raise one of his legs from the ground. He did so. Ali asked him again, to raise the other leg while one of the leg was already lifted from the ground.

The man exclaimed " But how can I do that, thats impossible!"

Ali replied," The leg you could raise, was your free will, which is 50 percent of your effort/action, the leg you could not raise, was your fate, which is also 50 % of your action, i.e. the result of it."

Hence you will always be able to do actions based on your free will and you will meet results based on that free will, but there always will be actions that you might want to do, but are unable to do so, and that will be your destiny, which is completely decided by God."

And destiny is influenced partly by our free will, partly by our sincere prayers, and largely by the will of God.

( I may not have used the wordings as precisely)

 

[839311]

How are free will and fate related? To whom is free will and fate?

Personally, determinism makes sense to me. Intuitively I am leaning heavily towards destiny through determinism. But, Im not 100% sure. Perhaps if science develops to the point where we can study the soul we may be able to make significant progress on the question of whether we have even a little free will.


Would you prefer a deterministic reality or one in which you have free will?

I would prefer a deterministic reality. Reality strikes me as incredibly awesome and beautiful if I consider it as a great 'machine'. A reality of free will seems ugly to me. The difference, for the most part, is about life. For example, in a deterministic world I can consider a terrible murderer and say that it was his destiny to do it. Forgiveness and acceptance become easier when our lives are destined. On the other hand, consider a rich snob who mistreats people and has his nose high in the air all the time. When I consider this person from a free will perspective, that he has made 'true' freewill choices to be the way he is, he strikes me as incredibly grotesque.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

We have Freewill, but our Freewill affects another's Freewill.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

We have Freewill, but our Freewill affects another's Freewill.

...what?

 

[PolyHedral]

Free will only appears that way because the decisions are usually too complex to reverse-engineer. Ants don't have free will, and the difference between them and us is only of degree.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

...what?

Our choice's affect another's

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Our choice's affect another's

Then there are no "free" choices. If our choices are influenced by anyone other than ourselves, then it is not just our choice.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Then there are no "free" choices. If our choices are influenced by anyone other than ourselves, then it is not just our choice.

There are some, but sometimes they don't always go out as planned.


For example, you have a free choice to shoot for the basket (game of basketball) but the opponent also had the free choice to rebound then making it in the hoop themselves, thus them winning the game.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

There are some, but sometimes they don't always go out as planned.


For example, you have a free choice to shoot for the basket (game of basketball) but the opponent also had the free choice to rebound then making it in the hoop themselves, thus them winning the game.

That doesn't affect the choice. That affects the outcome. It might be my will to jump from a rooftop and fly away, but that doesn't mean if no one interferes that I will succeed.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Cause and effect go around and around

 

[idea]

nature vs. nurture... just robots following the programming of our DNA to react to our environment? but then I don't think our potential is limited by where we grew up, or by the color of our skin. We are all so much more than just nature/nurture....

we have the ability to act, not just react...
our ability to act - to create - to change our environment rather than allowing our environment to change us - the ability to act is a beautiful gift - for those who have the "will"power to use free will.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

nature vs. nurture... just robots following the programming of our DNA to react to our environment? but then I don't think our potential is limited by where we grew up, or by the color of our skin. We are all so much more than just nature/nurture....

we have the ability to act, not just react...
our ability to act - to create - to change our environment rather than allowing our environment to change us - the ability to act is a beautiful gift - for those who have the "will"power to use free will.

Who's to say that cherished ability to act isn't just a complicated reaction? The brain is a pretty awesome computer.

 

[idav]

Free will only appears that way because the decisions are usually too complex to reverse-engineer. Ants don't have free will, and the difference between them and us is only of degree.

The important thing is there is a difference even if in degrees. At least there seems to be. When some super being looks at us they might just see us as an ant following chemical responses via a cause that is clearly seen.