For the Christians (Abrahamic only)

[dawny0826]

Please note the questions I ask here are not meant to be disrespectful, I am just trying to understand a few things that seem illogical to me.

I have stumbled upon the following few verses, and they confuse me.

After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

But if that is true, how is it that Christians don't follow all the laws that the Jews do. How is it that they don't do the Sabbath, that they don't keep Kosher, or let the earth rest every 7 years?

Also another thing I was thinking to myself. If we know the Messiah needs to be a descendant of King David, how could it be that Jesus was both a descendant of David, and the son of God.

Again, this is not meant in disrespect, Just honest curiosity as to how your scholars have interpreted these issues.

Jesus established a new covenant with his people, as he became the ultimate sacrifice for sin. So, the laws that existed in the time of Moses, particularly for the atonement of sin are no longer required. The COMMANDMENTS that God passed down through Moses are still applicable. However, Jesus added an additional Commandment, LOVE - we are to love and when we Love, we fulfill God's laws to the fullest.

The Christian, under the new covenant with Christ, should abide by the 10 commandments, but should first seek to love others, following the example set by Christ. In love, one seeks forgiveness for their own shortcomings and from others when they do wrong. They seek to do good by others and to do good for others, as faith without works is dead.

I concur with this explanation. (If you'd like scripture to reference and interpret on your own.)

TO FULFILL THE LAW-WITH LOVE

Jesus was fully man, fully God. I view God as a limitless God, capable of anything. It doesn't seem odd to me in anyway that God could come to us as a man, to show us how to live for Him and commune with Him.

 

[nazz]

I haven't read through the entire thread so forgive me if I repeat what someone else may have said.

As an Orthodox Jew you ought to know that the 613 laws of Torah do not apply to Gentiles. Only the 7 laws of Noah. These are given in a form in the Book of Acts as a guide to Gentiles entering the Christian faith.

It is problematic though for Jews who become Christians and that dilemma is not fully resolved in the NT.

A deeper question is what exactly Jesus meant by the Torah to which he referred. Because he spoke of it needing completion and gave his own commandments which superseded portions of it. In the gospel of John he is also quoted as referring to "their law" and "your law" (ie, Jewish law) as if his law was something different.

 

[Pegg]

A deeper question is what exactly Jesus meant by the Torah to which he referred. Because he spoke of it needing completion and gave his own commandments which superseded portions of it. In the gospel of John he is also quoted as referring to "their law" and "your law" (ie, Jewish law) as if his law was something different.

the laws that Jesus rejected was the Jewish 'oral' laws. He accepted the written Torah without doubt. But this is what he said about the 'oral' law:

Matthew 15:1 Then there came to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying: 2 “Why is it your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times? For example, they do not wash their hands when about to eat a meal.”
3 In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? ...7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”


the 'commands of men' that Jesus is talking about are the 'oral laws' because they do not originate with God but with men. God gave his 613 mosiac laws, but then religious teachers added thousands of additional laws that must also be adhered to...and sadly, some of the oral laws 'overstep' the law of God.

 

[sojourner]

Honestly, I am not a Scholar nor do I know the exact theories or interpretations of a specific Scholar. However I do believe this...
Matthew 5:17
[ The Law of Moses ] Don’t suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning.

I understand this in the exact way it's stated. I do believe in Jesus as the Messiah and to my understanding he didn't come to do away with the commandments or prophesies given to (Moses) and the prophets who came before him. He was born through the lineage of David (Mary) by the will of God and came as the Messiah to be the perfect example of how the Laws and instructions given by God are to be carried out. Due to the influence of the Roman Empire, many Jewish rulers at the time were very arrogant because of their high status in society and twisted the interpretations of the Laws in order to use them to their advantage. There was severe separation of the classes and (most of) the leaders were corrupt, very merciless, and uncompassionate. When Jesus came he practiced Jewish customs, taught how to obey the Laws of Moses, and observed the Jewish (holy or)holi-days but he disliked injustice. He also taught that what we do in our lifetime here on earth, will be accounted for in the after-life. Therefore he taught people the importance of trying to refrain from (sin) fleshly desires and desiring or accumulating excessive materialistic possessions. (In my belief, to say that you believe in Jesus is not enough. Actions speak louder than words)
I personally do observe the Sabbath ( which I believe is Saturday), don't eat anything which contains pork (more for health reasons), and fast. I don't celebrate X-mas, Thanksgiving or Halloween. I do celebrate Easter; specifically because it coincides with Passover which Jesus observed and I believe Passover to be a representation of Jesus being the symbolic sacrificial lamb who's blood allows for the eternal death (torture of hell) to pass-over us. I also believe many of the Old testament stories are symbolic examples or representations for the future (or spiritual) world. This is just my understanding. I too do not wish to offend anyone.

Are you Jewish?
Did you know that if it were not for Gentiles, you would know nothing of Jesus?

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Are you Jewish?
Did you know that if it were not for Gentiles, you would know nothing of Jesus?

No, I am not Jewish but Jesus and some of the Apostles were. Even Paul was raised as a Jew but was a Roman Citizen. He spoke the Jewish language (more than likely Aramaic) and Greek.

 

[nazz]

the laws that Jesus rejected was the Jewish 'oral' laws. He accepted the written Torah without doubt. But this is what he said about the 'oral' law:

Matthew 15:1 Then there came to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying: 2 “Why is it your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times? For example, they do not wash their hands when about to eat a meal.”
3 In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? ...7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”


the 'commands of men' that Jesus is talking about are the 'oral laws' because they do not originate with God but with men. God gave his 613 mosiac laws, but then religious teachers added thousands of additional laws that must also be adhered to...and sadly, some of the oral laws 'overstep' the law of God.

No, sorry, he rejected more than just the Oral Torah.

 

[sojourner]

No, I am not Jewish but Jesus and some of the Apostles were. Even Paul was raised as a Jew but was a Roman Citizen. He spoke the Jewish language (more than likely Aramaic) and Greek.

What bearing should the Mosaic Law have on non-Jews, who were never part of that covenant?

 

[earl613]

Jesus was above the Law just like we are all supposed to be. Live above the Law AND YOU WILL HAVE total peace

 

[Tranquil Servant]

What bearing should the Mosaic Law have on non-Jews, who were never part of that covenant?

The bearing which Christ (who was a Jew) taught....

17 Don’t suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets.[e] I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning. 18 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen.--Matthew 5

Jesus sealed the covenant and brought it to fulfillment. However his work is not done and Jesus came for all mankind not just for the Jews. GOD'S Laws are based on intentions and wisdom. Jesus taught and showed us using wisdom how to obey these laws. The Holy Spirit helps give us the wisdom to understand God's commands. Also, the first initial (10) commandments which god gave Moses, applied to the people of Israel..right? but don't all people have to obey these commands?
Israel-- One who has striven with God and men and is victorious.
Anyone who want's to obey God, struggles with the laws of God and the laws of men which often contradict each other. Also we struggle within ourselves; "wrestling" with our own (will or) intentions or desires and the will of God.

 

[sojourner]

The bearing which Christ (who was a Jew) taught....

17 Don’t suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets.[e] I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning. 18 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen.--Matthew 5

Jesus sealed the covenant and brought it to fulfillment. However his work is not done and Jesus came for all mankind not just for the Jews. GOD'S Laws are based on intentions and wisdom. Jesus taught and showed us using wisdom how to obey these laws. The Holy Spirit helps give us the wisdom to understand God's commands. Also, the first initial (10) commandments which god gave Moses, applied to the people of Israel..right? but don't all people have to obey these commands?
Israel-- One who has striven with God and men and is victorious.
Anyone who want's to obey God, struggles with the laws of God and the laws of men which often contradict each other. Also we struggle within ourselves; "wrestling" with our own (will or) intentions or desires and the will of God.

Jesus was talking to Jews -- not to Gentiles.

 

[nazz]

Jesus was talking to Jews -- not to Gentiles.

Yes, of course. But would he have said something different to Gentiles? We don't know as he rarely addressed them. But other Jews addressed the Gentiles relationship with the Torah and there were two different opinions. One was that Gentiles needed to convert in order to receive the blessing of eternal life in the world to come. The other was that they need only observe the 7 laws of Noah. We see this question was also taken up by the early church which went with the latter opinion as well. But where does that leave the Jewish Christians?

A deeper (and more important) question is what Jesus really meant by the "Torah" to begin with.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Jesus was talking to Jews -- not to Gentiles.

Yeah..It might seem like that on the surface but if you dig a little deeper into the meanings you'll find that Jesus wasn't only sent for the Jews.
Remember the meaning of Israel..God isn't referring to a race of people but the nation of people who have faith and want to obey God...
Remember that God usually refers to spiritual rewards and punishments so the people who have striven with men and god and have succeeded will be the ones to reap the spiritual rewards (which is eternal life).

To the Canaanite woman...
Jesus said, “I was sent only to the people of Israel! They are like a flock of lost sheep."
--People who once obeyed him who were now lost due to the corruption of God's commands.
Jesus replied, “It isn’t right to take food away from children and feed it to dogs.”[e]
This has the same meaning as...
"Don’t give to dogs what belongs to God. They will only turn and attack you. Don’t throw pearls down in front of pigs. They will trample all over them."
--Many people who are fixed in their ways will refuse the right path to God no matter how much truth and wisdom one may try to share with then. Then they may use that person's own words or belief to condemn him/her. The same way they used the words of Jesus to condemn him. It's better to spend time teaching someone who actually wants to learn as opposed to someone who is deaf and blind from pride.

--In those times, it was the Greeks who were largely pagan and it was because of the Roman Empire's influence that the Jewish people strayed away from the true meanings of God's commands and this is why Jesus refers to them as dogs.
However..
28 Jesus answered, “Dear woman, you really do have a lot of faith, and you will be given what you want.” At that moment her daughter was healed.
--The Canaanite women wasn't a Jew but she had faith in the Lord Jesus and because of this he helped her by healing her daughter.


John 4
23 But a time is coming, and it is already here! Even now the true worshipers are being led by the Spirit to worship the Father according to the truth. These are the ones the Father is seeking to worship him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship God must be led by the Spirit to worship him according to the truth.

 

[sojourner]

Yeah..It might seem like that on the surface but if you dig a little deeper into the meanings you'll find that Jesus wasn't only sent for the Jews.

That may be true, but in the reference provided, he was speaking to Jews. Had he been speaking to someone else, he may have said something else. If you dig a little deeper into an exegesis of the actual text, instead of into vague and general meanings, you'll find that Matthew was written to a group of expatriate Jews, and it was likely written that way in order to encourage these Jews living in Gentile territory to keep the Law.

You'll note that in the reference to the Canaanite woman, it was the woman's faith -- not her adherence to the Law -- that healed her daughter.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

That may be true, but in the reference provided, he was speaking to Jews. Had he been speaking to someone else, he may have said something else. If you dig a little deeper into an exegesis of the actual text, instead of into vague and general meanings, you'll find that Matthew was written to a group of expatriate Jews, and it was likely written that way in order to encourage these Jews living in Gentile territory to keep the Law.

You'll note that in the reference to the Canaanite woman, it was the woman's faith -- not her adherence to the Law -- that healed her daughter.

I didn't mean to offend you. However, I get the feeling your trying to offend me.
With that being said, I apologize if I did.:sorry1:
I'm not a Scholar but I'll leave you with this..

Mark 8:31
[ Jesus Speaks about His Suffering and Death ] Jesus began telling his disciples what would happen to him. He said, “The nation’s leaders, the chief priests, and the teachers of the Law of Moses will make the Son of Man suffer terribly. He will be rejected and killed, but three days later he will rise to life.”

44 Jesus said to them, “While I was still with you, I told you that everything written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms[d] had to happen.”
45 Then he helped them understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them:
The Scriptures say that the Messiah must suffer, then three days later he will rise from death. 47 They also say that all people of every nation must be told in my name to turn to God, in order to be forgiven. So beginning in Jerusalem, 48 you must tell everything that has happened.---Luke 24

According to an influential hypothesis put forward by W.D. Davies, the gospel of Matthew was written as a direct response to developments within the Jewish community following the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Pharisees of Judea emerged as the new leaders of the Jewish community after the war, and the loss of the Temple and its priests and the ritual of sacrifice faced them with the problem of finding a new Jewish identity. Their answer was to insist on strict observance of the Law (the Torah), isolation from the gentiles, and minimalization of the expectation of the coming of the Messiah (the expectation which had provoked the war). The Jewish Christians of Antioch responded differently: obedience to law will be done though following Jesus; Jesus was the Messiah; and Jew and gentile were to be brought into the one community.--Wikipedia (I know this isn't the best source but at least it's cited)

Good night. :sleep: (it's 1:44 AM)

 

[sojourner]

I didn't mean to offend you. However, I get the feeling your trying to offend me.
With that being said, I apologize if I did.:sorry1:
I'm not a Scholar but I'll leave you with this..

Mark 8:31
[ Jesus Speaks about His Suffering and Death ] Jesus began telling his disciples what would happen to him. He said, “The nation’s leaders, the chief priests, and the teachers of the Law of Moses will make the Son of Man suffer terribly. He will be rejected and killed, but three days later he will rise to life.”

44 Jesus said to them, “While I was still with you, I told you that everything written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms[d] had to happen.”
45 Then he helped them understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them:
The Scriptures say that the Messiah must suffer, then three days later he will rise from death. 47 They also say that all people of every nation must be told in my name to turn to God, in order to be forgiven. So beginning in Jerusalem, 48 you must tell everything that has happened.---Luke 24

According to an influential hypothesis put forward by W.D. Davies, the gospel of Matthew was written as a direct response to developments within the Jewish community following the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Pharisees of Judea emerged as the new leaders of the Jewish community after the war, and the loss of the Temple and its priests and the ritual of sacrifice faced them with the problem of finding a new Jewish identity. Their answer was to insist on strict observance of the Law (the Torah), isolation from the gentiles, and minimalization of the expectation of the coming of the Messiah (the expectation which had provoked the war). The Jewish Christians of Antioch responded differently: obedience to law will be done though following Jesus; Jesus was the Messiah; and Jew and gentile were to be brought into the one community.--Wikipedia (I know this isn't the best source but at least it's cited)

Good night. :sleep: (it's 1:44 AM)

Opinions vary, and one has to pick the camp in which one operates. I choose the "Matthew was written to expatriate Jews" camp, and that's the camp out of which my exegesis operates.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Opinions vary, and one has to pick the camp in which one operates. I choose the "Matthew was written to expatriate Jews" camp, and that's the camp out of which my exegesis operates.

Respected...

 

[dantech]

Jesus established a new covenant with his people, as he became the ultimate sacrifice for sin. So, the laws that existed in the time of Moses, particularly for the atonement of sin are no longer required. The COMMANDMENTS that God passed down through Moses are still applicable.

The practical observance of God’s Law as dictated through Moses is not highly regarded in the teachings of Christianity. Many Christian denominations believe that with the death of Jesus, the Law of Moses was completely annulled. Others believe that it is still practicable for Jews to observe the Law of Moses, but it is not a significant part of their relationship with God. The Jewish scriptures teach that the Law of Moses is eternal, it is holy and beautiful and it is central in our relationship with God. The following list of scriptural passages all speak of the importance of the Law. Some of these passages teach us that the Law is relevant for all generations, into and including the Messianic age. Other passages confirm that the Law is beautiful, holy, life-giving and central to our relationship with God.

Genesis 2:3, 17:7-13, Exodus 12:14,17,24,42, 13:10, 19:9, 27:21, 29:28,42, 30:8,10,21, 31:16,17, Leviticus 3:17, 6:11,15, 7:34,36, 10:9,15, 16:29,31,34, 17:7, 18:5, 23:14,21,31,41,43, 24:3,8,9, Numbers 15:15,21,23,38, 18:8,11,19, 19:10, 25:13, 35:29, Deuteronomy 4:2,6,8, 5:3, 6:18,24,25, 7:11-16, 8:1, 10:12,13, 11:1,9,13-15,18-25,27, 12:28, 13:1,18,19, 14:1,2, 15:4,5, 16:20, 18:5, 19:9, 25:15, 28:1-14, 29:8, 30:1,2,15-20, 31:21, 34:10-12, Joshua 1:7,8, Judges 5:31, Jeremiah 31:32, Ezekiel 36:27, 37:24, 44:23,24, Malachi 3:22, Psalm 19:8-11, 119:1-176, Esther 9:28, Nehemiah 9:13

I understand what you are saying in regards to the new covenant making the old one obsolete. However, Christians believe in the Old Testament, and by believing in it, you believe that it is the word of God. The word of God cannot be changed because it is perfect. It makes absolutely no sense for a perfect being to say :"I was wrong about the Sabbath, Kosher, and every other type of nonsense i asked you to follow. I was also wrong when I told you that my law is good for all the generations and well into the Messianic age. I was also wrong when I said that these laws are absolutely necessary for you and I to have a bond. Meh, just follow this new law, it's more suitable for you in the time you live in." This makes sens to you?

However, Jesus added an additional Commandment, LOVE - we are to love and when we Love, we fulfill God's laws to the fullest.

Many people think of Judaism as the religion of cold, harsh laws, to be contrasted with Christianity, the religion of love and brotherhood. This is an unfair characterization of both Judaism and Jewish law. Love and kindness have been a part of Judaism from the very beginning. When Jesus said, "love thy neighbor as thyself," he was merely quoting Torah, and he was quoting the book that is most commonly dismissed as a source of harsh laws: Leviticus 19:18. The point is repeated in Leviticus 19:34: love [the stranger] as thyself.

A large part of Jewish law is about treating people with kindness. The same body of Jewish law that commands us to eat only kosher food and not to turn on lights on Shabbat, also commands us to love both Jews and strangers, to give tzedakah (charity) to the poor and needy, and not to wrong anyone in speech or in business. In fact, acts of kindness are so much a part of Jewish law that the word "mitzvah" (literally, "commandment") is informally used to mean any good deed.

The Christian, under the new covenant with Christ, should abide by the 10 commandments, but should first seek to love others, following the example set by Christ. In love, one seeks forgiveness for their own shortcomings and from others when they do wrong. They seek to do good by others and to do good for others, as faith without works is dead.

What makes the 10 commandments still applicable to Christians but not the rest of the 613 laws that derive from the Torah? The only proof we have today of the ten commandments existing, lies in the Torah. I take this as more proof that you believe the Torah is truly the word of God. What gives Jesus, Paul or anyone else the right to say :"Follow these laws. The rest is not important as long as you love the people around you."

I concur with this explanation. (If you'd like scripture to reference and interpret on your own.)

TO FULFILL THE LAW-WITH LOVE

Jesus was fully man, fully God. I view God as a limitless God, capable of anything. It doesn't seem odd to me in anyway that God could come to us as a man, to show us how to live for Him and commune with Him.

I am not sure I want to start arguing with this part as it is not the point of the OP.

 

[PRV357]

The Church has never lived in stasis. It is a living, organic Body. Keeping the Jewish Law is fine for Jewish Christians, but when Xy came to the Gentiles, Paul advocated (and secured agreement from the church in Jerusalem) that Gentiles did not have to keep the Jewish Law in order to be followers of Jesus. That tradition has continued to this day.

:yes:

 

[jtartar]

Please note the questions I ask here are not meant to be disrespectful, I am just trying to understand a few things that seem illogical to me.

I have stumbled upon the following few verses, and they confuse me.













Basically, my question to you is this.

After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

But if that is true, how is it that Christians don't follow all the laws that the Jews do. How is it that they don't do the Sabbath, that they don't keep Kosher, or let the earth rest every 7 years?

Also another thing I was thinking to myself. If we know the Messiah needs to be a descendant of King David, how could it be that Jesus was both a descendant of David, and the son of God.

Again, this is not meant in disrespect, Just honest curiosity as to how your scholars have interpreted these issues.

dantech,
These questions are not as hard to understand as you might think. In the first place any person who claims to be a Christian MUST believe what the Bible says, because it is the word of God, inspired words written as the men were borne along by Holy Spirit, 2Tim 3:16,17, 2Pet 1:20,21.
There are many reasons why people cannot understand the scriptures, Dan 12:10, Prov 28:5, Matt 13:13-15, John 6:44,45.
The first verses you mention are Matt 5:17-19. Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, which is exactly what he did, Like 24:44. This is what Jesus meant when he said: It is finished, just before his death. After all the things written about Jesus was fulfilled by Jesus, that brought an end to the Mosaic Law COVENANT, Col 2:13,14, Rom 7:6, Heb 8:5-13. Jesus ended the Law Covenant because no one could obey the Laws perfectly, so everyone was under the curse of sin and death, Gal 3:10-14, 2Cor 3:6,7.
The reason that Jesus said that anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments or teaches anyone to break one, is least in relation to the Kingdom of heaven, is because Jesus was born a Jew and so as required to obey the Mosaic Law Covenant, Gal 4:4,5.
So you see, no Christian has ever been under the Mosaic Law Covenant, Deut 5:1-3, Ps 147:19,20. Christianity started on Penbtecost of 33CE, which was 50 days after Jesus death, when he poured out the Holy Spirit on some of Jesus' disciples and gave the miraclous powers, this to make very clear to the Jews that God had turned His blessing to the Christian Congregation. Jesus had told the Jews that God had turned away from the Jewish Nation, Matt 21:42, 23:37,38. The House Jesus was speaking about ewas the TEMPLE, which was abandoned to the Jews. This because only a few Jews accepted Jesus as the Christ, John 1:10-13. Only a REMNANT accepted Jesus and became Christians, Rom 9:27, 11:5.
Jesus was both as descendent of David and God, because Jesus came through the line of Judah, the same as David did, which tribe would come the rulers,as prophesied, Heb 7:14, Gen 49:10. At Luke 3:23-38, you findd the genealogy of Jesus, and David is in Jesus' line.
Just remember that no Christian was ever under the Mosaic Law Covenant, and the Jews were under the Mosaic Law Covenant until Jesus died. The Mosaic Law Covenant was never meant to be forever, but only until the coming of Jesus as the Messiah, Jere 31:31-34. Paul said that he was not under the Law Covenant, Rom 6:14,15. The Law Covenant was nailed to the stake with Jesus and done away with, Col 2:13,14.

 

[dawny0826]

Matthew 22:36 -40

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Though shalt love the Lord they God with all they heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it. Though shalt love they neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Christ Jesus was God in the flesh, from the perspective of many Christians. From my perspective and that of others, through Christ, God changed the manner in which we repent, commune with him, etc.

I won't expound much further, as I don't think it would be helpful. I humbly offer this only as one perspective as to why most Christians do not embrace all OT law. Much is no longer applicable.