sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Ya, it kinda does.
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For the Christians (Abrahamic only)
- Thread starter dantech
- Start date
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
A large majority of the early Christians "Like Jesus himself " were Jews.
They use modified Jewish learning and teaching resources like the Torah and the "two ways of Life" that was incorporated in the Didache.
Jesus teachings and news of his death and resurrection were spreading by word of mouth and by wandering "Prophets". There was no Established Christian Dogma.
Over the next three hundred years Christianity became established through out the known world and of necessity gathered its own scriptures, dogmas, theology and religious practises.
the change from a Jewish Sect to an identifiable and separate religion took both time and strife between differing beliefs and practises.
Our Bible today represents the fall out of that process. To try to understand it as either history or fact is pointless. It is still a work in progress.
They use modified Jewish learning and teaching resources like the Torah and the "two ways of Life" that was incorporated in the Didache.
Jesus teachings and news of his death and resurrection were spreading by word of mouth and by wandering "Prophets". There was no Established Christian Dogma.
Over the next three hundred years Christianity became established through out the known world and of necessity gathered its own scriptures, dogmas, theology and religious practises.
the change from a Jewish Sect to an identifiable and separate religion took both time and strife between differing beliefs and practises.
Our Bible today represents the fall out of that process. To try to understand it as either history or fact is pointless. It is still a work in progress.
idea
Question Everything
There are some laws that we believe were fulfilled through Christ - such as animal sacrifices, and dietary observances. The point of those was to prepare/teach everyone about Jesus and what was coming. Once Jesus came, there was no longer a reason to prepare for his 1st coming - instead we now study his life, and look forward to the second coming.
Mary was a descendant of King David, and was Jesus' adopted father - so either way, he was a descendant of David. Here are other prophecies that Jesus fulfilled:
Our church rests on Sunday - Sunday instead of Saturday is in observance of the resurrection of Jesus, the celebration of a new era. On Sundays we do not shop, or do work. (For some, like doctors, or police etc. etc. this is not possible, so they choose a different day of the week to hold as their Sabbath)
Our church also has some dietary restrictions - no coffee, no tea, no alcohol, no drugs or cigarets - or you can get deeper into it and eat fruits in the season thereof, and eat meat sparingly etc. etc. This is out of respect for our body - which is the temple of our spirit given to us by God, that we try to keep clean and pure.
Just FYI, as a Christian, I see the Jewish people as one of the chosen people of God, and I am grateful to you for the scriptures that you have shared with us. I do think God is a ruler over the whole world too though. One day I hope we will all share the same understanding of everything...
25 And he gathereth his children from the four quarters of the earth; and he numbereth his sheep, and they know him; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd; and he shall feed his sheep, and in him they shall find pasture.
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 22:25)
Looking forward to the day where there will be one fold.
Reverend Richard
New Thought Minister
Originally Posted by Reverend Richard
Thanks for proving my point.
God may have been Abraham's friend, but look at how much suffering He (God) allows, not only to those who don't accept Him, but also suffering for Abraham's decendents, the Jews. Suffering that many would argue still continues today.
According to the New Testament, Christ brought salvation, but it comes with a threat attached. Believe or burn in Hell forever. Jesus loves me, but only under certain conditions.
This seems to be a fairly large cherry.
How is God's love unconditional if the threat of damnation is the only other alternative? Please clarify.
Thanks for proving my point.
God may have been Abraham's friend, but look at how much suffering He (God) allows, not only to those who don't accept Him, but also suffering for Abraham's decendents, the Jews. Suffering that many would argue still continues today.
According to the New Testament, Christ brought salvation, but it comes with a threat attached. Believe or burn in Hell forever. Jesus loves me, but only under certain conditions.
This seems to be a fairly large cherry.
How is God's love unconditional if the threat of damnation is the only other alternative? Please clarify.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
"Threat of damnation??"
"Alternative??"
That may be how some -- or even many -- read the texts. I happen to read them differently, because they make more sense when I do so.
God showed God's love, in that Jesus was sacrificed for us while we were still sinners. Doesn't sound very "conditional" or "threatening" to me...
"Alternative??"
That may be how some -- or even many -- read the texts. I happen to read them differently, because they make more sense when I do so.
God showed God's love, in that Jesus was sacrificed for us while we were still sinners. Doesn't sound very "conditional" or "threatening" to me...
jtartar
Well-Known Member
dantech,
These scriptures are not a difficult problem.
First, remember that Jesuswas born a Jew and therefore under the Mosaic Law Covenant, Gal 4:3-5. Notice here that Jesus was under the Law, but that he came to release those under the Law. Look also at Gal 3:10-14, where the scriptures say that everyone under the Law Covenant was under a curse. That curse was the law of sin and death, Rom 6:23. At Pentecost of 33CE, which was fifty days after Jesus was resurrected, Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit that was given him by God, Acts 2:1-11. This actually started the Christian Congregation. At that time the Old Mosaic Law Covenant ended and the New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death began, Luke 22:19,20, Col 2:13,14, 2Cor 3:3-10, Rom 7:6, Heb 7:11,12, Heb 8:6-13. This would not be a law written on stones, but on hearts, and was a law of FAITH, not of WORKS as the Mosaic Law was.
This is to show you that the Mosaic Law COVENANT ended at the death of Jesus. Paul, who was himself a Jew said several times that he was NOT under the Law Covenant, 1Cor 9:20, Rom 6:14,15, Col 2:15,16.
NOW, the reason Jesus said what he did about the end of the world, is NOT the end of the earth, but the end of the world of mankind that just will not obey, 2Pet 3:7. Consider Rev 21:1,2, where we are told about a new earth and a new heaven. This means a completely different earth and heaven, because it will be made up of people who want to obey God, and the new heaven will be the new ruling group, that will be resurrected to heaven to be co-rulers with Jesus, Rom 8:17, Rev 5:9,10, 7:3,4, 14:1-5, 20:4-6. Consider the great difference, at Rev 21:3-5. Isa 11:1-9 pictures what it will be like when Jesus is the King of God's Kingdom, also Isa 65:17-25. These things have never happened on earth before.
God made the earth for mankind to live upon, the earth belongs to Him, Matt 5:5, Isa 45:18, Ps 115:16, Ps 37:29,34, Prov 2:21,22. So the earth will never be destroyed!!!
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dantech
Well-Known Member
Only problem with what you said here is that for Jesus to actually be the Messiah, he would have to accomplish all the prophecies. I am sure you agree with this...
These prophecies come from the Tanakh, and the Tanakh only, since it is the only divine knowledge we have from before his birth. In the Tanakh, it never mentions genealogical trees and descendants using the mother. The Divine word only uses the father when it comes to this. It says, in Hebrew, "Lebeit Avotam", not "Lebeit Imotam". So it doesn't really matter who Mary is a descendant of, as long as the father was a descendant of David. Adoptive parents don't count either according to the Tanakh. We both agree that God cannot be and is not a descendant of David, and therefore, using simple knowledge, we see that there is an issue in your theory of him being either the Messiah, or the product of the Holy Spirit.
Also, in the ten commandments, it is given to us to not commit adultery. In your theory of God being the father of Jesus, while Mary was married with Joseph, God would have to have commit adultery.
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I don't see how. No nookie, no adultery.
The Matthean geneology deliberately places Jesus as descended from "unauthorized" seed, and does so for a good theological reason. Matthew claims that Jesus is the Messiah of the true Israel, who are the "goats," not the "sheep."
idea
Question Everything
Two very interesting genealogies are given in the NT after Jesus is baptised and a voice from heaven calls down "this is my son". I think Mathew and Luke were both trying to teach those present what the heavenly voice was talking about. Mathew chapter 1,So, Mathew the scriptorium Jewish tax collector wants to make sure everyone knows that Jesus is a descendant of King David he tells everyone the genealogy of Joseph.
Luke gives a different genealogy than Mathew...
Luke includes David, but does not include the title King as Mathew does and what are all these other names? Who is Mattathias? There is no Mattathias in Mathews genealogy who is Esli? Who is Maath? Who is Semei? Etc. etc. etc. two different genealogies going on here .
Luke is very different from Mathew he is not Jewish, Luke helps sick people, he does not collect taxes. Luke was born to gentiles, and wrote for gentiles. The big deal in Luke's genealogy is linking JEsus - not to King David, but to God Himself. Luke gives his genealogy right after Jesus is baptized and a voice from heaven states "This is my beloved Son" - Luke is trying to explain to those present what "This is my beloved Son" means. Luke starts out
"being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph"
You think he is the son of Joseph - "supposed" son of Joseph - states Luke, well, he's not the son of Joseph - the voice from heaven just told you who he was a son of... Want to know Jesus' real genealogy? - then Luke points over to Mary, and recites her genealogy - recites it all the way back to God - It was a way for Luke to try and tell everyone Jesus was the son of Mary and God - not Joseph and Mary....
The cool thing is, we all share some common ancestry with Jesus... we are all sons and daughters of Adam too, and that makes us grandsons and granddaughters of... that's right ... We are all children of God - and His grandchildren too...
Mary calls herself the "handmaid of the Lord". Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, perhaps the handmaids in these accounts are symbolic of what was to come? In any event, Mary was a virgin,so there is no adultery that was committed.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
the answer is found in the hebrew scriptures themselves. The prophet Jeremiah was inspired to reveal that in time, God would institute a new law. It would not be a law based on the then existing mosaic law, but the new law would be something different.
Jeremiah 31:31 “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.” 33 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” 34 “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.”
When Jesus arrived in the role of the Messiah, he instituted this new covenant with his disciples.... that is why Jesus followers said that the mosaic law was finished. Jesus had instituted a 'new covenant' for his followers...
Luke 22:28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom
The Apostle Paul later explained the meaning of the new covenant...and why the mosaic covenant had ended, he applies Jeremiahs prophecy to the new covenant Jesus instituted:
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second; 8 for he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! There are days coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant;....
13 In his saying “a new [covenant]” he has made the former one obsolete. ...
9 For its part, then, the former [covenant] used to have ordinances of sacred service and [its] mundane holy place. 2 For there was constructed a first tent...3 But behind the second curtain was the tent [compartment] called “the Most Holy.” 4 This had a golden censer and the ark of the covenant ...
6 After these things had been constructed this way, the priests enter the first tent [compartment] at all times to perform the sacred services; 7 but into the second [compartment] the high priest alone enters once a year, not without blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of ignorance of the people. 8 Thus the holy spirit makes it plain that the way into the holy place had not yet been made manifest while the first tent was standing. 9 This very [tent] is an illustration for the appointed time that is now here, and in keeping with it both gifts and sacrifices are offered. ...
11 However, when Christ came as a high priest ...12 he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place ....
15 So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance...'
And this new covenants laws are based on Jesus own teachings...namely the two most important ones, 'love God and love your neighbor as yourself', but they also extend beyond this to include Gods moral standards as we find them in the hebrew scriptures. So christians are still expected to uphold Gods moral laws....but they do so under Christ, not under Moses or the regulations he instituted at Mount Sinai, but under Christs instructions to his followers.
he was a descendent of David though his mother Mary...she is descended from one of Davids sons.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Jesus rightly stated that the things we eat do not make us 'impure'... its the things we say and do that make us impure. The dietary restrictions of the mosaic law certainly had health benefits... even some parts of the 'clean' animals were not allowed to be eaten. Eating the fat of sheep or cow was restricted, but you could still eat the animals flesh itself. This could be an indicator that the foods classed as 'unclean' were unhealthy to eat.
i wouldnt say Jesus is contradicting the mosaic law here for the reason that he is speaking about a persons conduct, actions and words.... the dietary restrictions of the law were more likely to promote a persons physical health.
Me Myself
Back to my username
But he encouraged his disciple to eat it. Then he encouraged someone to break the law. Then you cannot say he was 100% for every law.
Sure, he said he was, but he was often contradictory when you take him by word value. Mystics are rarely consistent when measured by words alone, as if the words were binding contracts. You have to try and understand the meaning behind. As we can see, we would have to believe he was a liar or did purposefully wrong given that he encouraged others to break the law about food, unless of course , we understand we cannot take it as word value.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
the context really helps to settle any misconception... Jesus is speaking about a persons motives & heart when he says that, "what we eat does not make us impure, but what we say, does".
the mosaic law restricted certain foods, but not because those foods can defile a persons motives or heart condition. The figurative heart is not affected by foods. Let me put it this way, a wicked person does not become righteous by eating 'clean' foods. And that is what Jesus point is.... 'clean' foods cannot make a person righteous.
"what goes into our mouths cannot make us righteous" but the things that come out of our mouths (the things we say and do) prove if we are righteous or wicked.
Xian Pugilist
Member
This is probably a done deal for you, and I haven't read the rest but I'm going to mouth off anyway because I can't help myself.
The law was given to the Hebrew people. It was to set them apart as Holy. To be Holy there had to be a definition of Holy. Thus the law.
The Hebrew people had to be Holy, so there would be a standard for the Holy of Holies to become manifest, the Word to become manifest, or a Messiah to be identified. Without the law, what would identify the Messiah? The only things I find left, could be mimicked by ME or YOU even. (assuming we could be good little generals...)
If a God fearing Gentile worshipped the God of Abraham, there were laws he kept, but not all the laws. Some were intended ONLY for the Gentiles.
In Psalm 110, Jews and Xians differ on our views. We see it as prophetic and that the Messiah will be a High Priest of His time, and the Priesthood will not be Levitical but be after the order of Melchizedek. Mel existed before there was Jew or Gentile. So His Priesthood was definitely before the law. If Jesus' is the Messiah, and His Priesthood will be like Mel's then those under that patronage will not be under the law which didn't exist yet.
You have a picture of Noah, then Melchizedek (maybe Shem), who were the mediators before the Levites were, and the Levites came to set up the grand plan for the Messiah, who has come, made that law's purpose fulfilled, meaning finished, and the next stage being entered.
The law had a purpose. It was met. We move on to the next stage.
If we get the LOVE right, in Greek Agapao, an emotion with a commitment that is demonstrated in the Xian faith, (although the word Agapao, itself can be used for hateful stuff and incest/rape even...) then we keep the intent of all the laws.
The Xian faith teaches us that we are born with a nature that develops and is a me first, survival, pleasure seeking entity within me. My internal drive, provide for self part. That we accept that Christ will atone for our sins.
Atonement as a sacrifice for the purpose of giving us a faith/believe/reason/clear conscience to come Home to God, for Him to clean us and heal us like the Prodigal's Father did for him.
Christ is that gate through which we can rest assured God will accept our apologies and plea for help in our growth. We pass through that gate and are sent back to be His instruments of Righteousness on earth.
Any Love God does on earth is through His people, whoever they are.
The ultimate determinate for if a person is HIS or not is 1 john 4:16-18. If a person claims Xian faith, and has had magic baths, eaten magic milk and cookies at Church once a day/week/month/year whatever, but hasn't got the Love right, they are lying to themselves.
Yeah, I see lying people, everywhere I go.
That's my take. I could go for novella length explanations/scriptures/ etc.... but this is probably boring enough as it is.
:run:
The law was given to the Hebrew people. It was to set them apart as Holy. To be Holy there had to be a definition of Holy. Thus the law.
The Hebrew people had to be Holy, so there would be a standard for the Holy of Holies to become manifest, the Word to become manifest, or a Messiah to be identified. Without the law, what would identify the Messiah? The only things I find left, could be mimicked by ME or YOU even. (assuming we could be good little generals...)
If a God fearing Gentile worshipped the God of Abraham, there were laws he kept, but not all the laws. Some were intended ONLY for the Gentiles.
In Psalm 110, Jews and Xians differ on our views. We see it as prophetic and that the Messiah will be a High Priest of His time, and the Priesthood will not be Levitical but be after the order of Melchizedek. Mel existed before there was Jew or Gentile. So His Priesthood was definitely before the law. If Jesus' is the Messiah, and His Priesthood will be like Mel's then those under that patronage will not be under the law which didn't exist yet.
You have a picture of Noah, then Melchizedek (maybe Shem), who were the mediators before the Levites were, and the Levites came to set up the grand plan for the Messiah, who has come, made that law's purpose fulfilled, meaning finished, and the next stage being entered.
The law had a purpose. It was met. We move on to the next stage.
If we get the LOVE right, in Greek Agapao, an emotion with a commitment that is demonstrated in the Xian faith, (although the word Agapao, itself can be used for hateful stuff and incest/rape even...) then we keep the intent of all the laws.
The Xian faith teaches us that we are born with a nature that develops and is a me first, survival, pleasure seeking entity within me. My internal drive, provide for self part. That we accept that Christ will atone for our sins.
Atonement as a sacrifice for the purpose of giving us a faith/believe/reason/clear conscience to come Home to God, for Him to clean us and heal us like the Prodigal's Father did for him.
Christ is that gate through which we can rest assured God will accept our apologies and plea for help in our growth. We pass through that gate and are sent back to be His instruments of Righteousness on earth.
Any Love God does on earth is through His people, whoever they are.
The ultimate determinate for if a person is HIS or not is 1 john 4:16-18. If a person claims Xian faith, and has had magic baths, eaten magic milk and cookies at Church once a day/week/month/year whatever, but hasn't got the Love right, they are lying to themselves.
Yeah, I see lying people, everywhere I go.
That's my take. I could go for novella length explanations/scriptures/ etc.... but this is probably boring enough as it is.
:run:
Tranquil Servant
Was M.I.A for a while
Honestly, I am not a Scholar nor do I know the exact theories or interpretations of a specific Scholar. However I do believe this...
Matthew 5:17
[ The Law of Moses ] Don’t suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning.
I understand this in the exact way it's stated. I do believe in Jesus as the Messiah and to my understanding he didn't come to do away with the commandments or prophesies given to (Moses) and the prophets who came before him. He was born through the lineage of David (Mary) by the will of God and came as the Messiah to be the perfect example of how the Laws and instructions given by God are to be carried out. Due to the influence of the Roman Empire, many Jewish rulers at the time were very arrogant because of their high status in society and twisted the interpretations of the Laws in order to use them to their advantage. There was severe separation of the classes and (most of) the leaders were corrupt, very merciless, and uncompassionate. When Jesus came he practiced Jewish customs, taught how to obey the Laws of Moses, and observed the Jewish (holy or)holi-days but he disliked injustice. He also taught that what we do in our lifetime here on earth, will be accounted for in the after-life. Therefore he taught people the importance of trying to refrain from (sin) fleshly desires and desiring or accumulating excessive materialistic possessions. (In my belief, to say that you believe in Jesus is not enough. Actions speak louder than words)
I personally do observe the Sabbath ( which I believe is Saturday), don't eat anything which contains pork (more for health reasons), and fast. I don't celebrate X-mas, Thanksgiving or Halloween. I do celebrate Easter; specifically because it coincides with Passover which Jesus observed and I believe Passover to be a representation of Jesus being the symbolic sacrificial lamb who's blood allows for the eternal death (torture of hell) to pass-over us. I also believe many of the Old testament stories are symbolic examples or representations for the future (or spiritual) world. This is just my understanding. I too do not wish to offend anyone.
Matthew 5:17
[ The Law of Moses ] Don’t suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning.
I understand this in the exact way it's stated. I do believe in Jesus as the Messiah and to my understanding he didn't come to do away with the commandments or prophesies given to (Moses) and the prophets who came before him. He was born through the lineage of David (Mary) by the will of God and came as the Messiah to be the perfect example of how the Laws and instructions given by God are to be carried out. Due to the influence of the Roman Empire, many Jewish rulers at the time were very arrogant because of their high status in society and twisted the interpretations of the Laws in order to use them to their advantage. There was severe separation of the classes and (most of) the leaders were corrupt, very merciless, and uncompassionate. When Jesus came he practiced Jewish customs, taught how to obey the Laws of Moses, and observed the Jewish (holy or)holi-days but he disliked injustice. He also taught that what we do in our lifetime here on earth, will be accounted for in the after-life. Therefore he taught people the importance of trying to refrain from (sin) fleshly desires and desiring or accumulating excessive materialistic possessions. (In my belief, to say that you believe in Jesus is not enough. Actions speak louder than words)
I personally do observe the Sabbath ( which I believe is Saturday), don't eat anything which contains pork (more for health reasons), and fast. I don't celebrate X-mas, Thanksgiving or Halloween. I do celebrate Easter; specifically because it coincides with Passover which Jesus observed and I believe Passover to be a representation of Jesus being the symbolic sacrificial lamb who's blood allows for the eternal death (torture of hell) to pass-over us. I also believe many of the Old testament stories are symbolic examples or representations for the future (or spiritual) world. This is just my understanding. I too do not wish to offend anyone.
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Me Myself
Back to my username
Again you are missing my point. He TOLD them to eat the food. He was telling people to go against the law. I am not asking about the motives of the law, I am talking about the law.
If breaking the law is okay as long as you believe you are following the "spirit" of it, then fine. Condoms and pre marital sex for everyone
Tranquil Servant
Was M.I.A for a while
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
the mosaic law was taken out of the way and nailed to the stake along with Christ...thats why christians said that 'Christ is the end' of the mosaic law.
If the mosiac law is not obligatory, then how can anyone be breaking it by eating foods restricted under it?
Me Myself
Back to my username
Good, then we do agree that the Jewish law is not mandatory.
Again, condoms and premarital sex for all
