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For the Christians (Abrahamic only)

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by dantech, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Matthew 5:17 isn't telling people to follow the laws, in fact it could be inferred that until then the laws were not fully adequate.
    Jesus states that He is there not to do away with the laws, but rather to fulfill them, meaning He did not think that they were wrong, yet His teachings were a new way of fulfilling the commandments. This is entirely in concordance with the NT.
    Matthew 5:18 has to be read after 5:17 to make sense, this is the importance of putting verses in their proper context.
    L'Shalom
     
  2. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    I suppose you have to ask yourself why did God tell Abraham to kill his only child breaking one of the ten commandments? It was to show that faith goes over and beyond the law and through his faithfulness Christians have inherited the righteousness promised from God to the seed of Abraham.

    Love supercedes the laws as Jesus fulfilled the laws with the greatest love of all. No greater love than to lay your life down for your brother.
     
  3. dantech

    dantech Well-Known Member

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    This is not the same thing. In the case of Abraham, it was to test his faithfulness. However, when the time came for Isaac to die, God stopped him because He would not let Abraham commit a sin under His orders...
     
  4. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    Why test his faithfulness? Were the laws not good enough or was it truly belief and trust that God was seeking from the beginning? Why did he not test his faithfulness with the law instead of having Abraham go against a law he laid down in genesis 9 to not kill? It surely seems he put more emphasis on faith than on the law.
    Moses followed the laws yet he did not enter the promised land for lack of belief.
    The law in and of itself is perfect and reveals the transgression of sin.When satan tempted eve i believe he used the only temptation possible as it was against the only law to not eat the forbidden fruit.Whatever law you subject yourself to will also be your temptation and justifier.I just admit to God that I am a sinner and need Jesus as a justifier.I seek to walk after the commandment of love in faith as if the law could not qualify moses into the promiseland, surely it will not justify me.
     
    #84 Walkntune, Dec 3, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  5. dantech

    dantech Well-Known Member

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    Why test his faithfulness? Hard to say... I, as a human, don't know what God was thinking or what his motif was when he decided to test Abraham. I believe that he was tested this way particularly to teach us something. First, He showed that Abraham will stop at nothing to please God, even having to sacrifice his only son. Second, by stopping that actual sacrifice, He showed that it will never be in his interest for us to go against the laws he as originally commanded us to follow, even when we might think that it is the right thing to do...

    I admit to God I am a sinner as well. I do not, however, intentionally keep sinning because I know that I will be forgiven. I also do not sin thinking someone else will atone for my sins. When I sin, I know I will be punished. I know I am disappointing/angering God. I know I am being irresponsible.
    The problem I have with the "Love Jesus and all will be forgiven" idea is precisely that you can basically be anyone or do anything without any consequences.

    Every year, during our high holidays, we act as much as we can like angels who do not sin. We wake up extra early to pray for forgiveness; we fast; we stay at synagogue way longer that usual; we add to our daily prayers a long piece called Selihot (Pardons)... All in the purpose of asking God for forgiveness for all the sins that we have commit during the last year. We take responsibility for our actions. We don't just sin, and then think someone else will take care of it and I will be forgiven.
     
  6. theblancoone

    theblancoone New Member

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    (Romans 14:5) - "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind."
    (Colossians 2:16) - "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.
     
  7. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    The new covenant re-arranged the priority. Obeying Law is no longer the top priority for Christians. It is because obeying law itself can no longer save you, simply because you won't be able to comply to the law. In the very contrary, it is because that you can never comply to the law up to God's standard that law will become a curse to you. Someone like Satan will use law to be against you on the Judgment Day. Satan will say that you have violated the law which you failed to comply.

    As a result, the top priority is faith in Christ and to obey Christ's teaching as on the Judgment day once your faith is qualified by the new covenant, you don't even need to be judged by the law. That is, once your faith is qualified by the covenant, Satan doesn't even have a chance to accuse you.


    Revelation 12:10

    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
    “Now have come the salvation and the power
    and the kingdom of our God,
    and the authority of his Messiah.
    For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
    who accuses them before our God day and night,
    has been hurled down.
     
    #87 Hawkins, Feb 7, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
  8. dantech

    dantech Well-Known Member

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    Who says you won't be able to comply top the law. You can be a model citizen and still run a red light once in a while. God did not ask us to be perfect, he asked us to be as good as potentially possible for each one of us.

    And in the time of Jesus it was even easier to comply with the laws, so this answer makes no sense... to me at least.
     
  9. dantech

    dantech Well-Known Member

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    I'm still looking for an answer if anyone still reads this thread...:confused:
     
  10. roger1440

    roger1440 I do stuff

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    I’ll attempt to answer the question by turning it around 180 degrees. What is the purpose of the Torah? Correct me if I’m wrong. The commandments serve two purposes. One, it gives the Jews identity. Two, it is a means to stay focused on God. How am I doing so far?
     
  11. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

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    I don't have much time right now, but I'll try to answer these questions as best I can, in the time allotted. First let's look at the intent of the passage in question. Here is the thought-for-thought translation of it:

    Matthew 5:17-18 (New Living Translation)
    17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

    The first thing that's important to recognize is that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). These laws meant specifically for the Jewish people, and were not given to the Gentiles. So that's one way in which the law is not applicable to Christians. They never applied to people who were not part of the nation of Israel (e.g. most Christians were never part of the Jewish covenant, and therefore never under the old law).

    The second reason why the old laws are not binding on Christians is because right there in Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus says he came to fulfill the law, and that's exactly what he did. The word "abolish" in biblical Greek means "destroy", and Christ intended to ensure his followers that his mission was not to destroy God's word but to "fulfill" it. For example, the laws about animal sacrifice for atonement is fulfilled because Jesus' sacrifice on the cross atones for the sins of all mankind. Therefore, the law regarding sacrifice has been fulfilled. Circumcision was a law established by Abraham to be the mark of the covenant. But again, since the new covenant was established and replaces the old one, the law of circumcision has been fulfilled. Also, since Jesus died for the Jews (circumcised) AND the gentiles (uncircumcised), EVERYONE who believes is one of God's chosen. So the purpose of circumcision doesn't exist anymore. There are many other examples about how the Old Covenant law has been fulfilled by Jesus in some way (e.g., Mark 7:14-19 Jesus declares all foods clean).

    Romans 10:3-4
    3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

    Christians believe that Jesus established a New Covenant when he died on the cross. We believe that this New Covenant is the one that should apply to Jews today, as well as all gentiles since Christ died for the sins of ALL MANKIND.

    Jeremiah 31:31-33
    31 “The day is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. 32 This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,” says the Lord. 33 “But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,” says the Lord. “I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

    Malachi 3:1
    “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. Then the Lord you are seeking will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger of the covenant, whom you look for so eagerly, is surely coming,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.

    As the apostle Paul explains:

    Galatians 3:23-25
    23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed. 24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

    Romans 2:14
    14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

    Remember, most Christians are Gentiles who were never part of the Old Covenant. We were never bound by these laws in the first place (the Jews were). In addition, most Christians do not work on Saturday and most businesses are closed on Saturday. So many do in fact observe the Sabbath. More to the point, Christians generally believe that EVERY day should be kept Holy, not just one day of the week.

    Romans 14:5-9
    5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. 6 Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God. 7 For we don’t live for ourselves or die for ourselves. 8 If we live, it’s to honor the Lord. And if we die, it’s to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead.

    The same way that Clark Kent is both the son of Jor-El and the son of Jonathan Kent. ;)

    Sorry, I'm a Superman fan. My point is, although Jesus was conceived through devine will (ie: God is his "biological" father so to speak), Jesus is in fact Joseph's adopted son and he was raised by Joseph and Mary. Since Joseph is a descendant of David. An adopted son still takes on the family name of whatever family he is adopted into. That makes Jesus a descendant of David, in a manner of speaking.

    I'm not sure how scholars interpret it (because I don't consider myself to be one), I can only tell you how I interpret it.
     
  12. roger1440

    roger1440 I do stuff

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    Are you saying none of the Jewish laws apply to Christians, not one single one?
     
  13. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

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    Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The only "laws" that apply to Christians today are secular laws of the land. Christians have no "religious" laws.

    Romans 3:19-22
    19 Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. 20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are. 21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

    That's not to say that Christians aren't subject to the commandments of God, but such commandments are replete throughout the New Testament (commandments as reinforced by Jesus and the Apostles). But salvation is a choice, not to be enforced by any other individual or the state; the freedom to exercise that choice rests entirely with every individual.
     
  14. roger1440

    roger1440 I do stuff

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    The very first commandment given to the Jews from God was to embrace God. The remaining commandments are based on that one. Since the other commandments lead back to the one, there is actually only one commandment. I have a hard time explaining this.
     
  15. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

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    Sigh, yet another blatant twisting and misunderstanding of what it means to "Fulfill".

    Completion: Fulfilling Torah and Prophets (Messianic Judaism)
    Didn't Christ Fulfill the Law? | Biblically Kosher | Biblical Eating

    If you want to be among the least in the Kingdom, keep telling people it's cool to break the least of the commandments, which Jesus specifically warned about. Assuming you even get there as a "Doer of lawlessness".

    But thank you again for demonstrating why Paul may have indeed been a false apostle.

    Okay, so when Jesus was referring to all the commandments, it's only the ones that end up in the quotes that ended up in the final version of the Gospels. Too bad he didn't just flat out say "If I didn't mention them, you don't have to obey them". Apparently the female disciples who obeyed Sabbath after he was crucified never got this memo.

    And of course, apparently James and the Jerusalem Church, the ones who had been with Jesus all that time directly, never got this memo either when they grilled Paul about rumors about teaching Jewish Christians to abandon Moses. Dang Jesus, why didn't you just tell them all that time?
     
    #95 Shermana, Oct 4, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  16. dantech

    dantech Well-Known Member

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    I didn't realize this thread was resurrected. Cool.

    Most Christians were not under the covenant of Israel?
    Most Christians were Jewish... How were they not under the covenant of Israel?

    First issue... Where do you get that a new covenant will replace the old one. When Abraham made the covenant of circumcision, it lasted until Jesus's covenant according to you because the new covenant replaced the old one. Between them though, there was Moses' covenant, wasn't there? Why didn't Moses' covenant replace Abraham's in the first place? Because once a binding, everlasting covenant, always a binding, everlasting covenant. (That's what everlasting means...)

    Find me, in the Torah which was binding to Jesus and his followers, a verse that says that we will make a new covenant, that will REPLACE the old one. Key word being REPLACE


    Alright. So there is a verse in the Torah which says : YOU HAVE TO CIRCUMCISE, THROUGHOUT YOUR GENERATIONS. THIS IS AN EVERLASTING COMMANDMENT. Jesus comes, years later, dies on a cross, and that means everyone who is not circumcised is fine?


    But how can one prophet come and change the word of another prophet. Is the word a prophet not the word of God? Does the word of God change? Is he not perfect? Does he change his mind throughout the generations?

    I'm sure Paul, or Matthew or whoever it was had the authority to change what Jesus believed was God's word.


    That's all fine, but you should add on the the previous ones, not neglect and ignore them.

    Great! Where's the part that says that this covenant will replace the previous one?

    Today, yes this is true. But would this mean that you believe that the first Jews to follow the Christianity wave and convert were in the wrong?

    Now you are contradicting yourself. Why not work on the Sabbath if these laws don't apply to you. Do these people live in the USA, but follow the laws of Afghanistan?

    Jews believe that too. Which is why we wake up every day before work and go to synagogue to pray. Then during the afternoon, we stop whatever it is we're doing, and go to synagogue once again to pray. And then again another time in the evening. And some even pray in their bed before they go to sleep. We pray to God before eating anything, and we pray to God after having eaten anything. We pray to God after having gone to the bathroom. When we are not praying; eating; working; spending quality time with the family; or in the bathroom, we are suggested, and some might say required, to study any holy subject related to Torah. I haven't even scratched the surface of what Jews do during a regular day to keep it holy. Even when we go shopping for groceries or for clothes, there are laws that we need to think of and follow to make sure our lives are as holy as possible, on a day to day basis.

    Really??? Do you honestly believe what you are saying or are you just trying to convince yourself? If a Cohen or Levite adopts a child, is that child a Cohen or Levite? Who cares what the family name is. We are talking about tribal inheritance. If Superman adopts me, I will not inherit his powers.

    Appreciated. Unfortunately I disagree with your interpretation.
     
  17. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

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    There is no need to try. Scripture explains it quite clearly and plainly. :)

    Mark 12:28-34
    28 One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the debate. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” 29 Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. 30 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ 31 The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.” 32 The teacher of religious law replied, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth by saying that there is only one God and no other. 33 And I know it is important to love him with all my heart and all my understanding and all my strength, and to love my neighbor as myself. This is more important than to offer all of the burnt offerings and sacrifices required in the law.” 34 Realizing how much the man understood, Jesus said to him, “You are not far from the Kingdom of God.” And after that, no one dared to ask him any more questions.

    Matthew 7:12
    “Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.”

    Romans 13:8-10
    8 Owe nothing to anyone—except for your obligation to love one another. If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill the requirements of God’s law. 9 For the commandments say, “You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not covet.” These—and other such commandments—are summed up in this one commandment: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God’s law.
     
  18. roger1440

    roger1440 I do stuff

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    Everything you had quoted is from the Old Covenant. There is nothing new in there. Also, the Gospels writers had Jesus quote a very famous Rabbi of that time. Hillel the Elder, Hillel the Elder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  19. roger1440

    roger1440 I do stuff

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    There is no provision in the Old Covenant to replace it with another. Only Jewish scripture itself can be used to justify a New Covenant to replace the Old. Christian scripture will fall on deaf Jewish ears.
     
  20. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

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    Your point? :confused:
     
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