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For the Christians (Abrahamic only)

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Actually, if you've followed even just some of my posts, you'll see that I'm non-theistic, therefore that answers your question in regards to how this affects me-- it doesn't. But it would-- or at least should-- affect any observant Christian since if one just pooh-poohs away anything that doesn't fit a predetermined paradigm, then is their approach really theologically honest?

With the entire Tanakh, the most common pattern deals with both the Covenant and the Law, and essentially every book found within at least partially relates to these two interconnected themes. Get rid of those themes by declaring them to be totally inaccurate, and what is left? And if one does it to the Tanakh, why not the entire "N.T."? How do you know any of it is accurate?

I can't speak for that as it's all your choice.

I understood that you are not an ordinary practicing Jew; I was hoping to get a more detailed understanding of your specific beliefs.

I'm similar to you, except I'm slightly more Christian. I don't believe in much of that 'predetermined paradigm', because I do believe it to be misinformation/dishonest. But, this is God's will; how many Jews will even agree in every detail of Covenant, or Law? Or Jewish life in general?

I understand that God gives those living on the Earth precedence over the dead. Does this mean that the dead are unimportant? No; but their opinions/warnings should not (automatically) supersede those of the living. I agree with much of the Constitution of the US, but I don't believe it is wholly accurate, complete, or free of negative consequence- however, these are the foundational laws which have dictated my existence, including several hundred years of family history.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I'm similar to you, except I'm slightly more Christian. I don't believe in much of that 'predetermined paradigm', because I do believe it to be misinformation/dishonest. But, this is God's will; how many Jews will even agree in every detail of Covenant, or Law? Or Jewish life in general?

Why does any group have to all agree on much of anything? Conformity just isn't our approach.

Also, could you clarify what you mean by "this is God's will" in the above context, plus how you go about determining exactly what is "God's will"?

I understand that God gives those living on the Earth precedence over the dead. Does this mean that the dead are unimportant? No; but their opinions/warnings should not (automatically) supersede those of the living. I agree with much of the Constitution of the US, but I don't believe it is wholly accurate, complete, or free of negative consequence- however, these are the foundational laws which have dictated my existence, including several hundred years of family history.

I have no idea what you're referring to here in the context of our discussion other than we appear to agree that the scriptures shouldn't be viewed as inerrant or necessarily divinely inspired directly by God.
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
I do believe he is your God and that he loves you. And he has promised to return and all Israel shall be saved.

dance-above,
Here is something that you need to understand, in order to be able to understand both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Greek Scriptures. There are several covenants that are mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures, The Mosaic Law Covenant was just one. Even though the promises were for ever, they were only exclusive to the Jews if they continued to be obedient to God. They turned away from God many times, that is the reason He allowed them to be defeated several times.
In 607BC God allowed the Babylonians to destroy Solomon's temple. At that time the true Thearchy on earth came to an end. Daniel tells us, through a prophecy in Dan 4th chapter, that it would be 2,520 years before anyone would actually sit in that seat, which would be Jesus.
The Mosaic Law Covenant was never meant to last forever, it was a De Bene Esse covenant, an interim covenant, which would be in effect until the Messiah, Jesus would come, which he did as the Messiah in 30CE. Jeremiah wrote about a new covenant, that would end the Mosaic Covenant, Jere 31:31-34. Jesus instituted the New Covenant on the night before he died, at the Last Supper, or The Lord's Evening Meal, Luke 22:9,20, 1Cor 11:25. This covenant superseded the Mosaic Covenant, Heb 8:13, Col 2:13,14.
In the Christian Greek Scriptures the Christians have become the Antitypical Jews, so that all the promises made to the fleshly Jews in the Hebrew Scriptures applied to them. Read and contemplate this at Rom 2:28,29, which tell us that a Jew is one on the inside, of the heart and not outwardly as of the flesh. Also read Rom 9:1-8, which tells us that the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the true children are the children of the promise. This is the promise that God gave Abraham, about ALL the nations of the earth, would be blessed by what Abraham had done, not just Israel, Gen 22:9-18. This promise was to always be in effect, all people who followed God and then Jesus were Abraham's sons, Rom 4:8-17, Gal 3:23-29. There would be only a small amount of Jews that would believe in Jesus, and would become Christians, these were the Remnant, Rom 9:27, 11:5.
At the death of Jesus the Jews were no longer God's chosen people, the Christians became God's chosen people at Pentecost 33CE when the Holy Spirit was poured out on them, giving them much more power, even miraculous powers, Acts 2:1-4. Some even had the power to bring back to life the dead, Acts 9:40,41, 20:9-12.
The Christian Congregation became the Israel of God, Gal 6:16.
Jesus had warned the Jews earlier that the Kingdom would be taken from them, Matt 21:42-45. Jesus told them that he had tried to help them, but they would not listen and believe in him, he and God was abandoning the Temple, which meant they were no longer God's people, as a nation, Matt 23:32-39.
After the death of Jesus the Jews were on the same level as the gentiles, ALL would be saved by FAITH, in Jesus and in God, Rom 3:9,26,27, Rom 10:13,Gal 2:16.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually, jtarter, Romans 2:28 does not tell us that a Jew is one on the inside but the Law tells you that. Romans only refers you to the Law about it. You are attempting to steal credit from the Law and give it to Paul to make it look like Paul was saying something original. Credit must be given where credit is due. By not researching the actual origin of the things in the NT you prove yourself to be uneducated. You probably don't know what you are talking about, and you should take that into consideration or demonstrate that you understand Paul was not making original claims.
jtarter said:
The Mosaic Law Covenant was never meant to last forever, it was a De Bene Esse covenant, an interim covenant, which would be in effect until
Genesis 17:7 and several other passages say it is an everlasting covenant. The difficulty for you is that Paul sometimes seems to support this statement. He appears to be at odds with himself, depending upon the person who studies him.
 
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dantech

Well-Known Member
Actually, jtarter, Romans 2:28 does not tell us that a Jew is one on the inside but the Law tells you that. Romans only refers you to the Law about it. You are attempting to steal credit from the Law and give it to Paul to make it look like Paul was saying something original. Credit must be given where credit is due. By not researching the actual origin of the things in the NT you prove yourself to be uneducated. You probably don't know what you are talking about, and you should take that into consideration or demonstrate that you understand Paul was not making original claims.
Genesis 17:7 and several other passages say it is an everlasting covenant. The difficulty for you is that Paul sometimes seems to support this statement. He appears to be at odds with himself, depending upon the person who studies him.
Amazing, no?
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Amazing, no?
Fully embracing the NT requires making some very difficult choices and carries some risks. I have heard that the early Church kept busy rescuing unwanted children and rearing them and with other kinds of good works. There were no breaks from the good works and it would have been impossible for one person to live that way in isolation, and I think it would be impossible today. As unlikely as it may seem from time to time a group of Christians steps forward and attempts to light again the seven branched lamp stand referred to in Revelation 1:20, but so far (Could I say 'Shofar'? :faint:), but so far it hasn't quite worked out. The Shakers attempted it but died out, because they didn't believe in having sex. The Quakers tried it with much success but eventually departed from 'New Testamentalism'. Other groups have appeared form time to time, some becoming death cults others merely scattered into myriad fringe groups. Most people insist that the lamp stand is still burning and deny that it could be taken away. Well, I don't know.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
Fully embracing the NT requires making some very difficult choices and carries some risks. I have heard that the early Church kept busy rescuing unwanted children and rearing them and with other kinds of good works. There were no breaks from the good works and it would have been impossible for one person to live that way in isolation, and I think it would be impossible today. As unlikely as it may seem from time to time a group of Christians steps forward and attempts to light again the seven branched lamp stand referred to in Revelation 1:20, but so far (Could I say 'Shofar'? :faint:), but so far it hasn't quite worked out. The Shakers attempted it but died out, because they didn't believe in having sex. The Quakers tried it with much success but eventually departed from 'New Testamentalism'. Other groups have appeared form time to time, some becoming death cults others merely scattered into myriad fringe groups. Most people insist that the lamp stand is still burning and deny that it could be taken away. Well, I don't know.

It all just doesn't add up for me.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
It all just doesn't add up for me.
Of course it doesn’t add up. You’re Jewish. All Christians know that Jews don’t understand their own scripture. It takes a Christian to explain it to them. The part I don’t understand is why did God confuse the Jews in the first place. It appears God must be some sort of cosmic prankster.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
Of course it doesn’t add up. You’re Jewish. All Christians know that Jews don’t understand their own scripture. It takes a Christian to explain it to them. The part I don’t understand is why did God confuse the Jews in the first place. It appears God must be some sort of cosmic prankster.

How exactly are we confused? We're not the ones who have been worshipping some (possibly never-existed) guy who accomplished very little - at least in terms of messianic prophecies.

But that's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that Jesus, your Lord and savior, has clearly told you to follow the word of Moses. I think we both know where I'm going with this, so I'll just stop here. It's mostly reruns at this point.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
How exactly are we confused? We're not the ones who have been worshipping some (possibly never-existed) guy who accomplished very little - at least in terms of messianic prophecies.

But that's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that Jesus, your Lord and savior, has clearly told you to follow the word of Moses. I think we both know where I'm going with this, so I'll just stop here. It's mostly reruns at this point.
I was just teasing, don't take me serious.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Of course it doesn’t add up. You’re Jewish. All Christians know that Jews don’t understand their own scripture. It takes a Christian to explain it to them. The part I don’t understand is why did God confuse the Jews in the first place. It appears God must be some sort of cosmic prankster.

LOL:beach:
 
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