For the Christians (Abrahamic only)

[dantech]

Please note the questions I ask here are not meant to be disrespectful, I am just trying to understand a few things that seem illogical to me.

I have stumbled upon the following few verses, and they confuse me.

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid. (Luke 16:17)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)

“For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17)

“...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

Basically, my question to you is this.

After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

But if that is true, how is it that Christians don't follow all the laws that the Jews do. How is it that they don't do the Sabbath, that they don't keep Kosher, or let the earth rest every 7 years?

Also another thing I was thinking to myself. If we know the Messiah needs to be a descendant of King David, how could it be that Jesus was both a descendant of David, and the son of God.

Again, this is not meant in disrespect, Just honest curiosity as to how your scholars have interpreted these issues.

 

[savagewind]

Just honest curiosity as to how your scholars have interpreted these issues

Christians do not have scholars like the Jews do. There is no body over Christian believers telling Christians what to believe.

 

[dantech]

Christians do not have scholars like the Jews do. There is no body over Christian believers telling Christians what to believe.

I don't understand. You're saying that no Father has ever taught Christians anything? Ever?

This doesn't make much sense.

 

[savagewind]

I don't understand. You're saying that no Father has ever taught Christians anything? Ever?

This doesn't make much sense.

No. Y'Hushua Ha'Mashiyach has taught us. It is enough.

 

[dantech]

No. Y'Hushua Ha'Mashiyach has taught us. It is enough.

Apparently not, since I am asking a few pretty basic questions about your faith and the answer you're giving me is basically that no one will be able to answer me.

 

[savagewind]

There will be different answers.

I am no scholar but I understand the scriptures you printed can be understood on another plain. They can not be defined by man's present day knowledge about physics.

Have you ever seen Star Trek? Spock plays chess in three dimensions. Learn how to think in three dimensions and you will be able to answer the queries about what Law is and why there is another view of it.

 

[dantech]

There will be different answers.

I am no scholar but I understand the scriptures you printed can be understood on another plain. They can not be defined by man's present day knowledge about physics.

I disagree. I understand that it can be difficult to understand some things that happened thousands of years ago. However, Although very complicated and vast, the Old Testament is being studied my millions every day and a lot of it has been understood. You mean to tell me that the New Testament, which was written thousands of years later, cannot be understood by our present day knowledge about physics?

And the questions I am asking about are very basic and don't require the highest of knowledge in Physics to understand. They are quotes that are written very clearly. However they seem like a contradiction. That is all I am asking about.

 

[savagewind]

I disagree. I understand that it can be difficult to understand some things that happened thousands of years ago. However, Although very complicated and vast, the Old Testament is being studied my millions every day and a lot of it has been understood. You mean to tell me that the New Testament, which was written thousands of years later, cannot be understood by our present day knowledge about physics?

And the questions I am asking about are very basic and don't require the highest of knowledge in Physics to understand. They are quotes that are written very clearly. However they seem like a contradiction. That is all I am asking about.

We are misunderstanding each other I think.
The Old Testament Law is being understood in another dimension by the writers of the New Testament who wrote the quotes that you are sharing. And they ARE NOT SIMPLE. Not at all. I think to call them simple is to call opening a lock box without a key or a combination simple.

 

[Tarheeler]

Christians do not have scholars like the Jews do. There is no body over Christian believers telling Christians what to believe.

What about the Catholic and Orthodox churches, and the official bodies and councils of many of the protestant denominations? It's certainly true that some of their followers ignore what they have to say, but they do define the official positions and teachings of their faith.

And there are many Christian scholars who produce outstanding scholarship on a variety of Biblical and religious topics.

 

[dantech]

We are misunderstanding each other I think.
The Old Testament Law is being understood in another dimension by the writers of the New Testament who wrote the quotes that you are sharing. And they ARE NOT SIMPLE. Not at all. I think to call them simple is to call opening a lock box without a key or a combination simple.

seriously?

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)

You mean to tell me there's another way to understand this then the very logical and obvious way that is in front of our eyes?

 

[savagewind]

seriously?



You mean to tell me there's another way to understand this then the very logical and obvious way that is in front of our eyes?

Yes and yes.

The law teaches that to love is the greatest command. If you obey the commands but do not love, in actuality (another dimension) you are NOT obeying the commands. What is more important to love or to obey? That is the locked box. Y'Hushua Ha'Mashiyach has the key. You can borrow it any time you want to.

 

[Reverend Richard]

Please note the questions I ask here are not meant to be disrespectful, I am just trying to understand a few things that seem illogical to me.

Basically, my question to you is this.

After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

But if that is true, how is it that Christians don't follow all the laws that the Jews do. How is it that they don't do the Sabbath, that they don't keep Kosher, or let the earth rest every 7 years?

Also another thing I was thinking to myself. If we know the Messiah needs to be a descendant of King David, how could it be that Jesus was both a descendant of David, and the son of God.

Again, this is not meant in disrespect, Just honest curiosity as to how your scholars have interpreted these issues.

All are valid points, and, as a former conservative Christian, one of several reasons I no longer believe that the New Testament is literally true. But then again, I don't believe that the Old Testament is literally true either. All Biblical scripture is man's feeble attempt to explain who God is, based on a limited and very primitive understanding.

Abrahamic religions are all based on fear of God. For example, conservative Christians believe that if you do not accept Christ as Lord and Saviour, you will burn in hell forever. In other words, God is love, unless.......

That's what I refer to as carrot and stick salvation.

I see little evidence that God should be feared.

 

[savagewind]

Abrahamic religions are all based on fear of God.

Incorrect. The original Abrahamic religion is based on friendship with God.
Isaiah 41:8 But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

 

[dantech]

Yes and yes.

The law teaches that to love is the greatest command. If you obey the commands but do not love, in actuality (another dimension) you are NOT obeying the commands. What is more important to love or to obey? That is the locked box. Y'Hushua Ha'Mashiyach has the key. You can borrow it any time you want to.

Assuming you are right about Love being the most important.
How does Kosher/Sabbath/countless other laws conflict with love. You make it seem like it's either or... If Y'Hushua did have the key, as you say, that means you should all try to be as much like him as possible. But he did keep Kosher. He did follow the laws of the Old Testament, all with love.

He's saying Love is important. I have no problem with that. But love doesn't contradict anything from the Old testament. By doing both, you are actually doing what he taught. By just loving, and not following the other commandments, you are actually going against everything he stood for. Or so it would seem. That's why I am asking these questions and am hoping that someone will be able to shed some light on these issues.

 

[dantech]

All are valid points, and, as a former conservative Christian, one of several reasons I no longer believe that the New Testament is literally true. But then again, I don't believe that the Old Testament is literally true either. All Biblical scripture is man's feeble attempt to explain who God is, based on a limited and very primitive understanding.

Abrahamic religions are all based on fear of God. For example, conservative Christians believe that if you do not accept Christ as Lord and Saviour, you will burn in hell forever. In other words, God is love, unless.......

That's what I refer to as carrot and stick salvation.

I see little evidence that God should be feared.

Judaism is based around laws given to us by God. I am not going to say that not believing in God is okay in Judaism because it isn't. But 99% of Jewish Scholars will agree that it is a religion based more on action than it is on belief and love. Many will also agree that "Burning for eternity" doesn't exist in Judaism, except for very extreme cases.

 

[savagewind]

How does Kosher/Sabbath/countless other laws conflict with love

It puts people in two classes. Family is one.

But he did keep Kosher. He did follow the laws of the Old Testament, all with love

Because he is Jewish.

By doing both, you are actually doing what he taught

He did not teach the Law. He called it a heavy burden.

you are actually going against everything he stood for. Or so it would seem

This is a good example of how the word of God is able to discern hearts.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12. How do you read it? It exposes yourself to yourself. You can fix what is broke or not. You are free.

 

[Scuba Pete]

After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

That's a negative, and the clue is right there where it said that Moses (not God) gave us the law.

Laws are made by men for men. They might reflect the Love that is God, but only dimly.

However, God decided that Jesus would go ahead and fulfill the law or testament so we could all move past having to have laws. So what does it mean to "fulfill" something? Think of it as a mortgage on your soul. The Jews kept sacrificing animals in an attempt to pay it forward a bit. Well, Jesus came and sacrificed himself. The debt is paid. There is no more mortgage. No more laws. I am free.

Galatians 5:It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. NIV

The highlighting is mine, but that's the real essence of Christianity.

 

[Reverend Richard]

Incorrect. The original Abrahamic religion is based on friendship with God.
Isaiah 41:8 But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

Thanks for proving my point.

God may have been Abraham's friend, but look at how much suffering He (God) allows, not only to those who don't accept Him, but also suffering for Abraham's decendents, the Jews. Suffering that many would argue still continues today.

According to the New Testament, Christ brought salvation, but it comes with a threat attached. Believe or burn in Hell forever. Jesus loves me, but only under certain conditions.

 

[savagewind]

Thanks for proving my point.

God may have been Abraham's friend, but look at how much suffering He (God) allows, not only to those who don't accept Him, but also suffering for Abraham's decendents, the Jews. Suffering that many would argue still continues today.

According to the New Testament, Christ brought salvation, but it comes with a threat attached. Believe or burn in Hell forever. Jesus loves me, but only under certain conditions.

That is how you view it.
Are you saying that how you view the world is the only way that is correct?

 

[Reverend Richard]

That is how you view it.
Are you saying that how you view the world is the only way that is correct?

Yes, that's how I view it, because as a conservative Christian that's what I was taught from the New Testatment. Are you saying that the New Testament is incorrect?

Are you saying that how you view the world is the only way that is correct?